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From Dennis Burger on DVD-Angle:

I had a chance to listen to Pet Sounds for a bit this week before sending it over to Felix for review. Look for his thoughts on this one soon, and although I don't want to step on his toes with whatever he might say in his review, I'll definitely be picking this one up on Tuesday, despite a few minor problems I have with it (which are very much subjective, I might add
 
Cai:

"The advice that you might be better off listening to the stereo tracks through a processor, such as DPLII, also reinforces my thinking that Nick prefers a "watered-down" ambient type mix. "

Is that what I prefer?

What I said was that the two channel high resolution version was best, and that I found the surround processing through my Lexicon MC-12B in Logic 7 or DPLII to be superior to the surround mix on the disc, and that was the best means I found of listening to the disc. If your opinion of Logic 7 (or DPLII for that matter) is that these provide "watered down ambient type mixes," well, I know a whole forum that would disagree. Have you ever listened to Logic 7?

"It's like the Guthrie vs. Parsons DSOTM argument. Is the emphasis on a front-weighted stereo image or a fully discrete, distributed surround image? I prefer the former. Those that prefer the latter probably are better off with a processed version of the stereo tracks. That's a great option and hopefully will keep those folks happy. The rest of us that prefer real, discrete surround sound will (hopefully) be happy with the surround tracks included on the disc."

Obviously, not me. I just prefer the phony stuff ;)

Nick
 
Nick Satullo said:
"The advice that you might be better off listening to the stereo tracks through a processor, such as DPLII, also reinforces my thinking that Nick prefers a "watered-down" ambient type mix. "

Is that what I prefer?
I don't know, can you tell me? That was pure conjecture on my part, thus the "reinforces my thinking" bit.

Nick Satullo said:
What I said was that the two channel high resolution version was best, and that I found the surround processing through my Lexicon MC-12B in Logic 7 or DPLII to be superior to the surround mix on the disc, and that was the best means I found of listening to the disc. If your opinion of Logic 7 (or DPLII for that matter) is that these provide "watered down ambient type mixes," well, I know a whole forum that would disagree. Have you ever listened to Logic 7?
No, I have not listened to Logic 7, but I have listened to DPLII a lot and I really like it. I have heard from many folks that Logic 7 is the way to go for synthesizing surround from stereo. Be that as it may, I find it hard to believe that a synthesized surround presentation could beat a true discrete presentation. However, it does come down to personal preference and whether you rate cohesiveness over discreteness or visa-versa.

Admittedly, those of us who place discreteness as priority are a minority. I don't think there is a right or a wrong here! It's just nice to see a title that caters to us obnoxious few for a change!

:woopie

Nick Satullo said:

Obviously, not me. I just prefer the phony stuff ;)
Okay, my terminology was probably not the best, but I always look at surround mixes in terms of discreteness. For me, surround should be discrete and I use the terms to mean the same thing. In other words, if it ain't discrete, it ain't surround. Obviously, nothing could be further from the truth, but it's my own annoying little quirk that always manages to sneak its way into the discussion. Anyway, I figure there are three basic methods of achieving surround (with many variations in between). These are ranked from least to most discrete:

1. Synthesized surround from mono/stereo source.
2. Blended surround created by mixing engineer using discrete sources.
3. Purely discrete surround where each channel stands on its own without any bleed-over to any other channel.

Number 3 may not produce the most "proper" or "realistic" listening experience, but I'll take it above any other mix every single time. This is my own definition of "real" surround. That's all I'm saying.
 
To the lucky few who've got copies is it possible that one channel was recorded out of absolute polarity with the other 3 has anyone tried swapping the speaker leads on the right front might be a mastering error?
 
Ok guys (& gals), it might be me but I think I know what the problem is with the 5.1 mix. The vocals (among other things) to me sounded a little ... mushy. I recently added a new proccessor (bbe) & for the next little while I'll play with the volumes to see if they're (3) out of sync. I lowered the rears a notch and viola - the mix sounded better! After further investigation I started to notice an unflattering delay between the front & back sound fields. At times there is a lot of action back their and when the voices & instruments melded between the front & back it sounded like crap, which probably caused this right channel hole. Lowering the rears a notch (1dB on a Yamaha 1300) & I was much more inpressed with the mix. Speakers are matched ( I built them myself - 12 gu wire internal) & with a sound meter I had the volumes matched. I have over 150 M/C Hi Rez recordings ( I was just listening to Jancintha's SACD before I went back to BB), & the sound field is correct with the others. Agian, this is my oppinion - but for people who have the disk try this out. Let me know what you think.
Thanks for reading --- tony m.
 
Just to follow up, the delay (front vs rear) is the same length that ambience mixes have. I it's too loud & active in the back (with the delay). Turn the rears down a notch, I haven't been able to stop listening to it since!
 
I have read the review several times now and I have to agree with Cai and Guy, no center=no problem and I hope that what the others say about the delay works but I just envision my self going nuts trying to fix the right front hole and getting a headach from the uneven soundfield.:mad:@: :howl
 
quadanasaziland said:
I have read the review several times now and I have to agree with Cai and Guy, no center=no problem and I hope that what the others say about the delay works but I just envision my self going nuts trying to fix the right front hole and getting a headach from the uneven soundfield.:mad:@: :howl

Well I guess we will all know the truth tonight.

Because the title is Pet Sounds you have to get your dog or cat to stand in front of the right speaker and meow or bark. That was Brain W's intent all along. :D
 
After listening to the 5.1 mix all the way through I agree with Cai & Guy. The missing center doesn't bother me at all. And after turning down the rears slightly, the balance was great! A nice surround mix. I don't sense any unbalanced sound at all (after my slight adjustment).
 
Let's not get on Nick, or Patrick, for that matter. I find their reviews helpful and informative, and we all don't have to always agree with them or each other.

Opinions are usually easy to find! :D

:-jon
 
Guys,

Who was it predicted ‘Pet Sounds’ would split the DVD-Audio community straight down the middle… ;)

Personally, I’m in full agreement with Nick’s summary of the disc and found the left-channel bias particularly distracting. Just to be clear on this, the front right channel isn’t dead; rather the vocals mainly come from elsewhere (over to the left).

As someone who is also a proponent of centre channel use, I’d like to put my own take on what Nick was driving at in his review (he’ll correct me if I’m wrong). Rather than suggesting that the centre is a requirement to produce a convincing multi-channel mix, what he’s saying is that it provides yet another creative opportunity, almost on an equal footing as the surrounds. There’s no reason for the centre to be a ‘poor relation’ and sit idly by. Moreover, when a recording such as ‘Pet Sounds’ is so vocal orientated and a producer is given the opportunity to spread those vocals out across three front channels, it seems a waste not to do so and crush most of the voices into the front left. The result isn’t even a convincing phantom centre image, which could be argued in the case of many other predominantly 2/2.1 discs.

Incidentally, so left heavy is the mix that I found the soundstage more pleasing if I turned 45-90 degrees to the left when listening!

To go off on a tangent for a moment – many producers seem loathed to use the centre channel for no good reason – but the more progressive do steer content to the middle of the room and often the results are spectacular. ‘Welcome to the Pleasure Dome’ on the Frankie Goes to Hollywood SACD is a particularly good example; the centre is fairly quiet until about seven minutes into the track when it suddenly springs to life to emphasis a rising and falling guitar chord. Boy, is the result compelling. Likewise the recent release of ‘Avalon’, which is another fantastic surround mix that makes just the right use of the centre.

Back with the plot – to pick up on a point Cai made about Nick preferring a “watered-down ambient type mix” and the rest of the board perhaps preferring “real, discrete surround sound”. In my opinion, ‘Pet Sounds’ falls clearly into the first category, there’s nothing discrete about the surround mix, content is ‘leaked’ across all adjacent channels similar to what one would hear from a primitive passive ‘DSP’ mode. I’d urge folks to listen to the surround channels in isolation in order to prove that point.

Everyone has his or her own opinion on what a good or bad surround mix might be, but in this case I think the importance of the music and the prominence of the release is clouding everyone’s judgement somewhat. A site correspondent today reminded me of all the fuss concerning Silverline’s historical surround “creations”, and she suggested that the ‘Pet Sounds’ multi-channel mix is no better or worse. I can see her point.

By the way, the front L/R channels are used to carry the mono track, so it creates a phantom centre image, rather than it being delivered by the centre channel alone.
 
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Perhaps the deafness in one ear of Mr Wilson explains a little about the surround mix oddities.


Frank
 
"Incidentally, so left heavy is the mix that I found the soundstage more pleasing if I turned 45-90 degrees to the left when listening!"

This will make me crazy!

"Back with the plot – to pick up on a point Cai made about Nick preferring a “watered-down ambient type mix” and the rest of the board perhaps preferring “real, discrete surround sound”. In my opinion, ‘Pet Sounds’ falls clearly into the first category, there’s nothing discrete about the surround mix, content is ‘leaked’ across all adjacent channels similar to what one would hear from a primitive passive ‘DSP’ mode. I’d urge folks to listen to the surround channels in isolation in order to prove that point."

And the news just keeps getting better!

:yikes
 
Stuart accurately summed up my meaning on center channel usage. To those of you who read the DSOTM review, you know that it was a disc I raved about. I also noted the near-absence of center channel usage on that disc, but it still worked, and I said so. To suggest that the review insists that center channels "must" be prominent is not a correct reading of what I wrote.

I found the front soundstage to suffer on the disc. There is an uneven emphasis on the left channel, to the exclusion of the right, and there's nothing from the center to fill the gap. At the same time, the aggressive surrounds are pumping out what is nearly the equal of the front left channel, and that didn't help the situation--again, in my view.

I went into the review wanting to like the disc, but certainly no more than I wanted to like DSOTM. Both reviews note discs with absent center channels, and aggressive surrounds--but the conclusions regarding the end product are very different. Hopefully, that at least dispels any notion that the conclusions in the review can be accounted for by a preference for center channels, or dislike of aggressive surrounds.

In the end, the review amounts to nothing more than one listener's opinion of the disc, and attempts to provide the reasons prompting that opinion. But the process of writing a review involves, unfortunately, time and work. I can assure you that, in the several times I listened to the disc over a period of a few days, making notes, checking and rechecking my observations, I would have preferred it to be a disc I enjoyed more, and would certainly have said so.

Did I enjoy the music?--immensely, and have for years. But the music was not what I was reviewing. The distinction between the music and the surround/fidelity presentation has to be cleanly cut if, in my opinion, a review of a DVD-Audio disc is to have any value.

Nick
 
Okay I just listened to the entire disc and I will try not to gush too much. In order to make things as perfect as they could be I did the following. Ensure all speakers were set to large, set the subwoofer full on using it's volume control and decrease the rears -3 decibels.

Don't expect huge amounts of bass. The bass will be fine if you have larger speakers all around. Tracks like "Let's Go Away For Awhile" have quite a bit of bass actually. No pantlegs ruffling here though as the subwoofer use is minimal. Also some will say that the sound is too clear and takes away from the rawness. I say "Wow".

The extras are worth the price of admission alone. Those without surround will be missing a lot with the extras. With most of the stuff it is like sitting in the middle of the studio. In one cut Brian sends his directions from the rear left speaker.

I don't hear the left sided issue. I am getting pretty well perfect vocals as a phantom, dead centre along with everything else. Actually there is a bit of "left-sidedness" at the beginning of "Sloop John B" but that soon disappears. I also don't hear the vocals as mushy. If anything they are too clear.

If you can tell yet I love this disc. Some if not all of the extra tracks are incredible. However, it is Pet Sounds which to me is almost the same as having a hi-rez version of Sgt Pepper in my hand. To think that I wasn't going to get it due to the comments made previously. I'm glad that I didn't take them to heart.

The only negative I can honestly make on this disc is that the bass possibly could have been stronger and some of the instruments are almost lost in the mix. However, after listening to this disc I have a smile on my face.
 
High Fidelity Review said:
Back with the plot – to pick up on a point Cai made about Nick preferring a “watered-down ambient type mix” and the rest of the board perhaps preferring “real, discrete surround sound”. In my opinion, ‘Pet Sounds’ falls clearly into the first category, there’s nothing discrete about the surround mix, content is ‘leaked’ across all adjacent channels similar to what one would hear from a primitive passive ‘DSP’ mode. I’d urge folks to listen to the surround channels in isolation in order to prove that point.

I do agree that this is not a discrete mix. There are rare examples of discreteness. However I still like it. You must turn down your surrounds though. I usually leave them alone but I had to decrease them significantly to get a balanced sound. I checked my settings again and I actually had the left rear set to -4 DB and the right rear set to -3 DB so there may be something to the "left sidedness" however this makes me think that the left surround is louder than the right surround. As I said it seems to be balanced now. I even turned my chair and faced the back to reverse my ears and the sound was dead centre still. Maybe it is the fact that my room is 12.5 by 17 feet. It is not huge.
 
Okay, I took the liberty of inferring a LOT from Nick's review without having any more information to go on. That was wrong and I apologize for that.

I think, for the most part, I was in denial. I love Pet Sounds and I wanted SO MUCH for this title to be THE killer app for DVD-A that I simply was not going to let anybody else say anything to the contrary... subconsciously of course. I would never consciously try and force through a glowing viewpoint on a (seemingly) sub-standard product.

I still have not heard it myself and probably won't get the opportunity for a while (other priorities, etc.) So, I'm kind of relying on the comments from others that are trickling in. All I can say is the more I read the more discouraged I get.

Yes, I was trying to put a positive spin on Nick's review, and it seems obvious to me now that most of what I was inferring was wrong. The biggest disappointment for me at this point is hearing that the surround mix is not discrete. That would have allowed me to forgive any other shortcomings. Alas, it's now time to face reality. How very sad.

:(
 
I feel better after guy's review, thanks GUY!:) But like Cai I feel this thing would have made a cool discrete experience. I too will have to wait to get it since I live in the jungles of south America.. er.. New Mexico. So to the net for me to get it.
 
Cai Campbell said:
Okay, I took the liberty of inferring a LOT from Nick's review without having any more information to go on. That was wrong and I apologize for that.

I think, for the most part, I was in denial. I love Pet Sounds and I wanted SO MUCH for this title to be THE killer app for DVD-A that I simply was not going to let anybody else say anything to the contrary... subconsciously of course. I would never consciously try and force through a glowing viewpoint on a (seemingly) sub-standard product.

I still have not heard it myself and probably won't get the opportunity for a while (other priorities, etc.) So, I'm kind of relying on the comments from others that are trickling in. All I can say is the more I read the more discouraged I get.

Yes, I was trying to put a positive spin on Nick's review, and it seems obvious to me now that most of what I was inferring was wrong. The biggest disappointment for me at this point is hearing that the surround mix is not discrete. That would have allowed me to forgive any other shortcomings. Alas, it's now time to face reality. How very sad.

:(

The bonus material is fantastic. It's worth getting if just for that. The fact that it is not discrete does not bother me and I love discrete mixes. I think you will also like it when you hear it. It is the best that I have heard Pet Sounds. What I am about to say would be blasphemy on other forums but will be accepted here. What you have to remember is that this was originally a mono recording from 1966. Taking that into account it sounds great. What I haven't been able to figure out is why both Groups 1 and 3 both contain 5.1 24/96 MLP. They appear to be identical. As I said I can't find this left sidedness either.
 
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