Pioneer 563A Problem

[Guy Robinson]

A friend of mine has one of these. He has had a few discs that haven't played right but now he is having an issue with bass management for stereo SACD. He cannot get his sub activated for stereo SACD's. He is using the 6 analog inputs for stereo as well (not the stereo analog) and he has all the speakers set to small. He can't get anything from the sub. This is the same thing I am doing with my 45a and the sub works on my machine. Any feedback from you owners of 563's?

 

[BOSSMAN]

Hey, Guy

As stereo SACDs are only two channel, there will be no bass outputted to the subwoofer when listening in 6-channel analog. However, if he is so inclined, your friend can connect the two additional analog stereo outputs from his his 563a player to two analog CD outputs on his receiver to get subwoofer sound in stereo SACD mode. There is some debate on various forums about the conversion of the SACD signal, but I have mine connected like this, and it sounds much better to my ears, particularly when listening to the Rolling Stones SACDs, which sounded a little thin for my liking.

Hope that helps.

 

[Guy Robinson]

Hey, Guy

As stereo SACDs are only two channel, there will be no bass outputted to the subwoofer when listening in 6-channel analog. However, if he is so inclined, your friend can connect the two additional analog stereo outputs from his his 563a player to two analog CD outputs on his receiver to get subwoofer sound in stereo SACD mode. There is some debate on various forums about the conversion of the SACD signal, but I have mine connected like this, and it sounds much better to my ears, particularly when listening to the Rolling Stones SACDs, which sounded a little thin for my liking.

Hope that helps.

So this method must do some conversion back to the digital realm as you have indicated. I'm just not sure why it doesn't work like the 45a. If I play a stereo SACD through the 6 analog inputs with the main speakers set as large the sub is dead. If I set the main speakers to small the sub is activated. This all must happen in the player.

 

[BOSSMAN]

The bass/sub issue seems to be handled in odd manners and in different ways with nearly every player I have looked at and read about. There doesn't seem to be any standard in how this feature is implemented. It's just something you have to fiddle with no matter what unit you have, in order to satisfy your personal preference, as you have indicated. Unfortunately for the 563a, there is no way of getting sub output in the two channel analog setup, no matter what you set the speakers at.

BTW: If your friend does does decide to go ahead and try my suggestion, I'm curious to hear about what you or your friend think. I've auditioned an A/B comparison between the two setups for some friends to find out what they thought (stereo SACD through the six analog channels with no sub, and through the CD analog with sub output), and they all preferred it through the CD analog with sub output. It is indeed going through some conversion in the digital realm, but they all commented that it sounds 'fuller' (at least with the 563a). So go figure.

 

[Guy Robinson]

The bass/sub issue seems to be handled in odd manners and in different ways with nearly every player I have looked at and read about. There doesn't seem to be any standard in how this feature is implemented. It's just something you have to fiddle with no matter what unit you have, in order to satisfy your personal preference, as you have indicated. Unfortunately for the 563a, there is no way of getting sub output in the two channel analog setup, no matter what you set the speakers at.

BTW: If your friend does does decide to go ahead and try my suggestion, I'm curious to hear about what you or your friend think. I've auditioned an A/B comparison between the two setups for some friends to find out what they thought (stereo SACD through the six analog channels with no sub, and through the CD analog with sub output), and they all preferred it through the CD analog with sub output. It is indeed going through some conversion in the digital realm, but they all commented that it sounds 'fuller' (at least with the 563a). So go figure.

Well without trying it I know that with the speakers he has any sub usage will definately result in a more satisfying fuller sound than that which would result from no sub. No sub would be anemic. In my opinion the perfect "no brainer" way is what is happening in the 45a when you ALWAYS use the 6 analog inputs and the bass management works the same whether in 6 channel or stereo mode. Either way, whichever live speaker (a stereo disc of course only sends output to left/right mains out of the 6 and the other 4 are dead) is set to small will result in the low bass from that speaker being funnelled to the sub.

 

[BOSSMAN]

Yup, I agree. The 563a is a nice multichannel SACD player, because everything is directed accordingly in the six channel output, but the fluky sub-bass mis/management issue in the stereo mode make it less-than-ultimate. It has a nice DVD picture though.

Regards,

 

[Whitehall]

I've recently found disks where the LFE (or .1 or subwoofer) channel was swapped with the center channel. One would think that a specific channel would always be that specific channel but SACD/DVD-A seem to play one way and DTS or Dolby can sometimes play the two inversely.

This could be a disk manufacturing/mixing quality issue or it could be the player.

Anyone else seen this symptom?

 

[Guy Robinson]

I've recently found disks where the LFE (or .1 or subwoofer) channel was swapped with the center channel. One would think that a specific channel would always be that specific channel but SACD/DVD-A seem to play one way and DTS or Dolby can sometimes play the two inversely.

This could be a disk manufacturing/mixing quality issue or it could be the player.

Anyone else seen this symptom?

Which discs are these? Some are deliberate such as the Jaco Pastorius Big Band disc from Heads Up.

 

[ssully]

Hey, Guy

As stereo SACDs are only two channel, there will be no bass outputted to the subwoofer when listening in 6-channel analog.

Actually, there should be, *if* he is using bass managment (speakers set to small). For any source -- including 2-channel SACD , CD or whatever -- the player *should* separate out the bass and send it to the 'sixth' channel. For a 2-channel source, this results in a 2.1 channel playback from the six-channel outputs.

If the 563 doesn't do this, it's just stupid design. I know the 45a can do it, because mine does. One thing to chekc is to make sure the analog outputs are set for '5.1' or 'multichannel' output in the player's menues, not '2 channel". Otherwise the other channels may simply be turned off.

 

[Guy Robinson]

Actually, there should be, *if* he is using bass managment (speakers set to small). For any source -- including 2-channel SACD , CD or whatever -- the player *should* separate out the bass and send it to the 'sixth' channel. For a 2-channel source, this results in a 2.1 channel playback from the six-channel outputs.

If the 563 doesn't do this, it's just stupid design. I know the 45a can do it, because mine does. One thing to chekc is to make sure the analog outputs are set for '5.1' or 'multichannel' output in the player's menues, not '2 channel". Otherwise the other channels may simply be turned off.

This is true but with the Jaco disc mentioned above, because the bass guitar is in the center channel there is a lot of low energy in the center there even though everything below 100 HZ or so is sent to the sub when it is sent on small. I like to keep it set on Large though. First time I have ever seen the cones in the center moving a lot.

 

[BOSSMAN]

Guy,

OK. After receiving a new unit of this player (I took my first one in for servicing because it stopped reading DVDs, and they just gave me a new one instead), here's what I have found regarding the bass management issue on the 563A. Currently, I have the fronts and center set to large, and just the rears set to small: this setup does indeed output sound to the sub (And yes, it does need to be set up in 5.1 default mode in the GUI). My other player WOULD NOT do this, so I suspect that was a malfunction in my first unit itself (and why I posted my previous posts as such), and I apologize for any small confusion I may have caused with my comments. So, your friend's unit should output to the sub with stereo SACDs if has everything set to small, or the way I do.

Cheers,

 

[Guy Robinson]

Guy,

OK. After receiving a new unit of this player (I took my first one in for servicing because it stopped reading DVDs, and they just gave me a new one instead), here's what I have found regarding the bass management issue on the 563A. Currently, I have the fronts and center set to large, and just the rears set to small: this setup does indeed output sound to the sub (And yes, it does need to be set up in 5.1 default mode in the GUI). My other player WOULD NOT do this, so I suspect that was a malfunction in my first unit itself (and why I posted my previous posts as such), and I apologize for any small confusion I may have caused with my comments. So, your friend's unit should output to the sub with stereo SACDs if has everything set to small, or the way I do.

Cheers,

I think he is going to replace it with a Denon 2900 or something like that as he is getting fed up with all the disc issues he is having and all the other reported issues with other discs that he would like to buy. He's like me, as he won't wait long for a solution to come from Pioneer.

 

[BOSSMAN]

I don't blame him, it's probably the smart thing to do at this point. I am looking at the Denon myself. I purchased this unit primarily for its progressive scan abilities, and delved it hi-rez as an afterthought, but I do like what each format has to offer now that I have heard them, albeit in a less-than-elite player. Unfortunately, the disc incompatibilities weren't the only problem I had with it; aside from the fact that it essentially died less than a month after I bought it, I experienced occasional dropouts when listening to SACDs, and also static "pops" in the rear surrounds between songs when listening to DVD-As. How do you like the 45? Ever have any disc issues with it?

 

[Guy Robinson]

I don't blame him, it's probably the smart thing to do at this point. I am looking at the Denon myself. I purchased this unit primarily for its progressive scan abilities, and delved it hi-rez as an afterthought, but I do like what each format has to offer now that I have heard them, albeit in a less-than-elite player. Unfortunately, the disc incompatibilities weren't the only problem I had with it; aside from the fact that it essentially died less than a month after I bought it, I experienced occasional dropouts when listening to SACDs, and also static "pops" in the rear surrounds between songs when listening to DVD-As. How do you like the 45? Ever have any disc issues with it?

I love the 45a. I have never heard anything wrong with any disc I have played. I also love the SACD output. There are negative things said here concerning the SACD output but if anything I think that SACD sounds better than the DVD-A output and that is saying something. I can't imagine it sounding any better as the sound is truly perfect in my estimation.

 

[ssully]

The 45a has the usual 'uni player' issues circa 2002-2003: inconsistent bass management and time alignment for different formats, and weirdness involving subwoofer channel levels for hi-rez vs. Dolby Digital.

My next player and receiver will be one that has a firewire or HDMI interface, so that all the BM, levels, time alignment, etc, will be done in the receiver, consistently for all formats.

 

[Guy Robinson]

The 45a has the usual 'uni player' issues circa 2002-2003: inconsistent bass management and time alignment for different formats, and weirdness involving subwoofer channel levels for hi-rez vs. Dolby Digital.

My next player and receiver will be one that has a firewire or HDMI interface, so that all the BM, levels, time alignment, etc, will be done in the receiver, consistently for all formats.

Well over the past 2 years or so I have learned how to set it up for each format (to the point where I have a piece of paper in each disc with setup info for that disc) so that it almost consistently sounds fantastic to me. The only issue I have had is with the DVD-A of Ryan Adams - Gold which is 4.0. Because it is PPCM I cannot get the sub to work with DVD-A. This disc really needs the sub. Therefore, I have taken to playing it in Dolby 5.1. I guess if I got the SACD I could remedy the problem. Hmm............................

 

[BOSSMAN]

The firewire/IEE connection would certainly make for a less awkward set-up. What do you mean by the 'time alignment' issue, ssully?

BTW Guy, Ryan Adams' Gold is a terrific SACD, and I think it's pretty cheap at the CDN Best Buy.

 

[Guy Robinson]

The firewire/IEE connection would certainly make for a less awkward set-up. What do you mean by the 'time alignment' issue, ssully?

BTW Guy, Ryan Adams' Gold is a terrific SACD, and I think it's pretty cheap at the CDN Best Buy.

The SACD is 4.0 as well, right? I am assuming though as with any SACD that you can make the speakers small and shunt the low end to the sub, something that can't be done with PPCM on a DVD-A, at least on the 45a anyway.

 

[ssully]

The firewire/IEE connection would certainly make for a less awkward set-up. What do you mean by the 'time alignment' issue, ssully?

Time alignment = setting the speaker delays, which are useful if your speakers aren't all set up equally distant from the listening position...the situation in most HT/surround systems. Until recently (and perhaps even now) many uniplayers could do TA for one, but not both, hi-rez formats.

 

[BOSSMAN]

'Gold' is indeed a 4.0 SACD Guy, but the imaging across the front stage is so seemless, it actually sounds like it is utilizing the center. And yes, setting the speakers to small does send bass to the sub. Interestingly though, I have the DVD-A of this title also, and the 563A will actually redirect bass to the subwoofer in altering just the rear speaker settings to small. I'm a little surprised the 45a doesn't.

Thanks ssully. The 563A has this feature as well, but as you indicated, it can only be applied uniformly for both formats.