Pioneer 563A Problem

[Guy Robinson]

'Gold' is indeed a 4.0 SACD Guy, but the imaging across the front stage is so seemless, it actually sounds like it is utilizing the center. And yes, setting the speakers to small does send bass to the sub. Interestingly though, I have the DVD-A of this title also, and the 563A will actually redirect bass to the subwoofer in altering just the rear speaker settings to small. I'm a little surprised the 45a doesn't.

Thanks ssully. The 563A has this feature as well, but as you indicated, it can only be applied uniformly for both formats.

Thanks for the feedback on the SACD. I may go get the SACD version. That is the only flaw I have found with the 45a to date with any disc and it is a 4.0 disc so really it is not a flaw.

 

[ssully]

'Gold' is indeed a 4.0 SACD Guy, but the imaging across the front stage is so seemless, it actually sounds like it is utilizing the center. And yes, setting the speakers to small does send bass to the sub. Interestingly though, I have the DVD-A of this title also, and the 563A will actually redirect bass to the subwoofer in altering just the rear speaker settings to small. I'm a little surprised the 45a doesn't.

Thanks ssully. The 563A has this feature as well, but as you indicated, it can only be applied uniformly for both formats.

Actually the 563A differs from the 45a in this regard. The 45a cannot do time alignment for SACD sources, whereas the 563A can. Both can do TA for all other sources. Another notable difference between the 563 and 45A is its BM characteristics :

the 563A has crossovers at 100 Hz (DVD,CD) 200 Hz (DVD-A) and 120 Hz (SACD),
-12 dB/octave rolloff slope for both high- and low-pass for all formats

The 45A has crossover set at 100 Hz for all formats, -12 dB/octave rolloff for the low pass for all formats, and the same for the high pass filter for all formats *except * SACD, where the high-pass slope changes to -6 dB /octave

(One upshot for both these players is that, using their bass management, different formats may sound different NOT because of SACD, DVD-A, or CD being inherently different-sounding, but because the players' BM treats them differently. This is the sort of thing that bugs me when people make claims about audible difference they attribute to the *formats* -- rarely do they report whether their systems are set up to treat each format the same. And of course, one might expect the two *players* to sound different from each other too, given the different ways they bass manage the same format)

These results are all from Sound & Vision's bench test results. There were other results for the 563a such as main vs surround channel noise, and channel overload characteristics, that may differ between the 45A and 563A. However, such tests were bit more detailed for the 563A than for the 45a, so a direct comparison may not be possible from the reports. The 45A results aren't online AFAIK, but the 563A results are -- see

563A bench test results

which was part of this review

563A review

I will try to remember to dig out the issue with the 45a results and post them if anhyone's interested.

 

[Guy Robinson]

Actually the 563A differs from the 45a in this regard. The 45a cannot do time alignment for SACD sources, whereas the 563A can. Both can do TA for all other sources. Another notable difference between the 563 and 45A is its BM characteristics :

the 563A has crossovers at 100 Hz (DVD,CD) 200 Hz (DVD-A) and 120 Hz (SACD),
-12 dB/octave rolloff slope for both high- and low-pass for all formats

The 45A has crossover set at 100 Hz for all formats, -12 dB/octave rolloff for the low pass for all formats, and the same for the high pass filter for all formats *except * SACD, where the high-pass slope changes to -6 dB /octave

(One upshot for both these players is that, using their bass management, different formats may sound different NOT because of SACD, DVD-A, or CD being inherently different-sounding, but because the players' BM treats them differently. This is the sort of thing that bugs me when people make claims about audible difference they attribute to the *formats* -- rarely do they report whether their systems are set up to treat each format the same. And of course, one might expect the two *players* to sound different from each other too, given the different ways they bass manage the same format)

These results are all from Sound & Vision's bench test results. There were other results for the 563a such as main vs surround channel noise, and channel overload characteristics, that may differ between the 45A and 563A. However, such tests were bit more detailed for the 563A than for the 45a, so a direct comparison may not be possible from the reports. The 45A results aren't online AFAIK, but the 563A results are -- see

563A bench test results

which was part of this review

563A review

I will try to remember to dig out the issue with the 45a results and post them if anhyone's interested.

Thanks for the info. However, in the end what matters is what things sound like to you and everything sounds great on the 45a except possibly for CD's which seem to be quite a downer usually when played right after a SACD or a DVD-A.

In the 45a, I haven't noticed a time alignment issue for SACD's as compared to DVD-A where I do have the time alignment set. If anything the SACD generally sounds better.

I would think that the fact that a $199 player does SACD time alignment would mean that there is some conversion happening as I suspect that the player doesn't use the Sony chips that are capable of doing this in native DSD. Also, if the same settings apply for both DVD-A and SACD then this would also point to that. I know, you are going to say that there is no proof that converting SACD to PCM is necessary bad.

 

[ssully]

Thanks for the info. However, in the end what matters is what things sound like to you and everything sounds great on the 45a except possibly for CD's which seem to be quite a downer usually when played right after a SACD or a DVD-A.

That hasn't been my experience., except in the limited sense that CDs aren't multichannel, and that can't be the player's fault. Even there, I find the using DPL II fills in the 'gap'...and in some cases, I prefere the DPL II 'mix' to the dedicated surround mix found on the hi-rez disc.

In the 45a, I haven't noticed a time alignment issue for SACD's as compared to DVD-A where I do have the time alignment set. If anything the SACD generally sounds better.

What the bench tests show is that, if you are using the 45A's bass management, the 6dB/octave difference in slope between DVD-A and SACD conceivably could make SACD sound different generally (e.g., the 50-100Hz frequencies would be louder in the satellites for SACD, than they are for DVD-A). It's not a level comparison field, unless you forego BM or use an outboard BM device that applies it the same way to both formats (e.g., an Outlaw ICBM). And even then, you have the time alignment difference. To level the field there, you'd have to turn it off.

I would think that the fact that a $199 player does SACD time alignment would mean that there is some conversion happening as I suspect that the player doesn't use the Sony chips that are capable of doing this in native DSD. Also, if the same settings apply for both DVD-A and SACD then this would also point to that. I know, you are going to say that there is no proof that converting SACD to PCM is necessary bad.

Indeed...none at all. The 45A may be doing it too, whenever BM is applied to SACDs.

 

[Guy Robinson]

That hasn't been my experience., except in the limited sense that CDs aren't multichannel, and that can't be the player's fault. Even there, I find the using DPL II fills in the 'gap'...and in some cases, I prefere the DPL II 'mix' to the dedicated surround mix found on the hi-rez disc.




What the bench tests show is that, if you are using the 45A's bass management, the 6dB/octave difference in slope between DVD-A and SACD conceivably could make SACD sound different generally (e.g., the 50-100Hz frequencies would be louder in the satellites for SACD, than they are for DVD-A). It's not a level comparison field, unless you forego BM or use an outboard BM device that applies it the same way to both formats (e.g., an Outlaw ICBM). And even then, you have the time alignment difference. To level the field there, you'd have to turn it off.




Indeed...none at all. The 45A may be doing it too, whenever BM is applied to SACDs.

Thanks for the info again. I am very happy with what I am hearing with both DVD-A and SACD so for me I guess things are set up right.

 

[Guy Robinson]

Thanks for the feedback on the SACD. I may go get the SACD version. That is the only flaw I have found with the 45a to date with any disc and it is a 4.0 disc so really it is not a flaw.

I picked up the SACD. This is the way I should have bought it the first time. Now I just have to find someone that wants to buy the DVD-A version.

 

[BOSSMAN]

Glad you liked it. There are some nice videos on the DVD-A though; and really, that is the reason why we all buy DVD-Audios, right?

 

[bmoura]

I picked up the SACD. This is the way I should have bought it the first time. Now I just have to find someone that wants to buy the DVD-A version.

Gold is a good one on Surround SACD.

 

[Guy Robinson]

Glad you liked it. There are some nice videos on the DVD-A though; and really, that is the reason why we all buy DVD-Audios, right?

I have to admit that I rarely watch the videos. With DVD-A I usually have the TV off. With me it is the surround or hi-rez stereo that I am going for. The videos are really not a factor when purchasing. A lot of the time I am facing my computer with my back to the TV.

 

[BOSSMAN]

I was kidding, Guy.

Cheers,