Used Multichannel Soundcards

[ndiamone]

OK I finally got my new Dell PC from rehab, has quad-core so should be alright for multichannel music and video.

Question now is, since rehab won't buy me the multichannel sound-capture card and since I could never buy the newest home-studio cards on my own, I'm looking for suggestions on what to buy and where to buy a used one at.

I read several of the threads here, but they don't say much.

I basically want to be able to record into the computer off my various reel to reels (Ampex 440-4-AG, Scully 480-4, Tascam (various 4 and 8 track cassette and reel to reel formats) my Akai 12-track (Lambda-tape) home studio deck and my Sansui 6-channel cassette deck, all of which I use to transfer peoples tapes off of into digital so they can work with `em.

Up til now, I've only done mono and stereo, restoring through either Diamond Cut Pro, Adobe Audition or Sound Forge.
If one or more of these recording programs can record in multitrack OK, then I don't need to go out and spend hundreds of dollars for a good multitrack recording program that can run 32/192. So that's what I need or a good explanation of why I should be happy with 24/96 when the various noise, hum, hiss, crackle and pop reducers work better the higher the file resolution is, and then what's good at 24/96 I can get at a good price used.

But now more and more people are sending me their half inch 4 track and 8 track, cassette 4 track and 8 track masters and their various other wierd home studio formats that battled it out in the 70's to transfer to digital because they can't afford the studio transfer rates and they know if it's not time-sensitive, I will do it for cheaper.

So whoever thinks whatever about a good used multichannel recording computer card (or breakout box) and multichannel recording software, give a holler.

 

[JonUrban]

I use the newer version of the MOTU 828 (the MarkIII). This link is to an eBay auction (no connection to me and no endorsment of the seller) that has one a MarkII for around $100!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110398627096

This records at 24/96, ten channels, and works great. It connects FIREWIRE to your PC. The newer version, the mkIII, will records 10 channels at 24/192. It obviously costs a bit more ($700 new)

For software, I record with Sony (Sound Forge) Vegas 8.0, but there are many other options out there. However, I am very comfortable with Vegas, as I started using it when it was an audio only app (Vegas Audio). I've never used the video fucntion of the program.

One nice thing about the Sound Forge stuff is that you can save files as .w64's, so if you have a very large 6 Channel sound file, you can save it all in one instead of track by track

 

[BananaSlug]

What was the BIN?

 

[ndiamone]

So, then, Vegas does also video? Because a lot of the time I have to lay in one or more video tracks in addition to 4 or 6 or 8 audio tracks. Will that keep the audio and video synched up and be able to store as one file? I don't need HD-Video just yet, I'm just starting doing peoples 1 inch and 2 inch video broadcast masters, all of which are of course standard NTSC or PAL.

However, a guy wants me to do a series of stuff from his church, which has a half-inch or one-inch 6-track sound master on 8 track tape (timecode track on 8 and blank on 7) to go along with it. The stereo video masters have a mono mix on 1 an L-R mix on 2 and the timecode track on the cue track. On the 2-inch mono video, they have the mono on the audio track and the timecode track on the cue track, and it goes along with an 8-track 1-inch audiotape (blank on 7 and timecode on 8).

So, we'll get some more ideas and then see what we find.

Does Adobe Audition recognize .w64's or will I have to get a better editing and mixing program?

 

[Key]

So, then, Vegas does also video? Because a lot of the time I have to lay in one or more video tracks in addition to 4 or 6 or 8 audio tracks. Will that keep the audio and video synched up and be able to store as one file? I don't need HD-Video just yet, I'm just starting doing peoples 1 inch and 2 inch video broadcast masters, all of which are of course standard NTSC or PAL.


Does Adobe Audition recognize .w64's or will I have to get a better editing and mixing program?

Yeah, Vegas will keep the A/V files synced if they are muxed. I think you can even go under properties and lock them together somehow if they are two separate files. Of course ctrl + click will work as well.

If you don't your way around re-rendering video files or muxing them without a re-render I would watch out though. Things get weird with syncing video to audio and NTSC. Anytime I tried using an NTSC source, any program I have used forces me to re-render to 24fps or the audio and video will lose sync. Someone much smarter than me explained this to me once but I forget why this happens.

w64 is a Sony proprietary format so I doubt it would work in Audition. I was using w64 with hi res multichannel in soundforge but I started to use .sfg files instead since they keep a record of everything you do to a file and keep it so you can undo everything. Of course I think this takes up more HD space with temporary metadata.

My 2cents on a 192kHz card with 8 ins and outs under 1,000 - you can't beat the Mackie Onyx 400f even with it's handful of flaws. I see they sell B-Stock here for pretty cheap http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product?sku=180311V&src=RSSXSTPD&ZYXSEM=0
That price is a little high today - I have seen it get down to like $399. I got mine off of ebay for around $450 shipped and it is not B-Stock. If you only want 96kHz it's not as easy for me to say the Onyx is the best but if you are on a budget and want the 192 then you are stuck with Mackie imo. I did some measurements with Right Mark Audio Analyzer and can post them if you want.

 

[jello22]

Got to agree with the Mackie Onyx...my buddy got one off of ebay used at a great price and he loves it!

 

[ndiamone]

Basically I want something that acts like a VTR and an ATR with a timecode link. I want an import card/breakout box that I can use that can take a component, composite, matrix or discrete video into it, couple that with a companion soundcard or breakout box that can take a timecoded or not multitrack audio master in it at the same, record them both off their native decks simultaneously into the computer and proceed with editing and restoration without losing sync.

I do NOT want something, or a group of somethings that's incompatible with the rest of the world, has a thousand tweaks necessary for it to process properly, has a thousand things on it I will never use or that needs an doctorate in engineering to run it. I just want something I can plug both my video and audio sources into, press Record, let it run, and then be able to edit video and audio in the computer later just as if I were back at Todd-AO editing 35MM picture film and rows and rows of unmarried 35MM mag tracks on the Moviola with some glue and a paintbrush.

And no ``semi-pro/industrial'' gear either like Mackie, the scourge of churches, schools and small theatres everywhere.
I lump Mackie and it's hundreds of clones into the same industrial/cable-station category as Tascam quarter inch 8 track 7 inch reel
to reel or Yamaha minidisc multitrack recorder/mixer combinations that people with no money and no ears have been buying for years.

Like transferring from a 4-track BetaCam or LaserDisc: the main two AFM audio tracks with a F+B mix to them, and the other two tracks with an F-B mix to them (or stereo mix on the AFM and an M&E mix on the linear, or etc) that I can transfer all at once without losing sync and without having to be a television or cable station or spending the money they spend.

Or a half-inch EIAJ reel to reel with mono audio on the audio track and timecode on the cue track linking to time-coded Akai home-studio 12-track (10 tracks of audio, a blank and the timecode track) or any one of a hundred other video-plus-multitrack-audio combinations.

Or should I just search around for a multi-media stand-alone hard-drive recorder with multiple video and audio inputs, and then just take the hard drive out and pop it into the computer and work that way?

 

[phydo]

I have a question. Do any multichannel soundcards offer IEEE-1394 connections?

Justin

 

[ndiamone]

Still looking for something decent and not too expensive.
The kid at the electronics counter told me I needed a 4-channel or better soundcard or interface box that is capable of interleaving the tracks otherwise the phase difference is a problem. He also said I needed one that could mux with a matching video capture card so as not to lose lip lock upon layback.

It's all Chinese to me. I'm used to running SMPTE and locking multitrack audio stems with 4-camera iso video masters and ``cutting'' my show that way.
Now I'm trying to import everything in the computer, preferably at the same time on multiple machines so I don't get lead or lag, and it's all going waaaaaaay over my head.

 

[Key]

I have a question. Do any multichannel soundcards offer IEEE-1394 connections?

Justin

The Mackie does

ndiamone most any of the 8in 8out cards will have a clock input and output to lock devices. My choice of a budget soundcard is just my subjective pick I have no alliance with any of the companies. M-Audio, Focusrite, Presonus, Motu, Echo etc....... all offer cards that will do what you want. It is subjective which has the best sound and features for cost. I actually think the card I recommended is pretty straight forward. But my old card the Delta 1010 has no pre-amps whatsoever and might be more what you are looking for in terms of no frills. To tell you the truth it is not the best sounding in it's price range. Now excuse me while I go clean the *!@* out of my ears.

 

[arnold_layne]

I have a question. Do any multichannel soundcards offer IEEE-1394 connections?

Justin

Certainly. I use a Edirol FA-101. Firewire 10in 10out 24/192 (in stereo) and 24/96 for all channels. Perfect for Quad to DVD-A transfers.

 

[ndiamone]

That could work if used ones are not $400. Does it have interleaving? People are saying if you don't have an interleaving soundcard, you'll have wandering phase between channels.

 

[winopener]

What is the reason for this phase wandering? "Interleaving" is something that is already in the digital domain, a so-called "phase wandering" seems to be an analog problem.

 

[ndiamone]

From what we been able to gather, if you record independent monaural non-interleaved waveforms (or two stereo pairs)
through a normal non-interleaved sound interface, then the channels will start to drift independently of one another
during the digitization process. I think its like the six-millisecond left-to-right delay on a CD that most people can't hear
or something along those lines. I don't quite understand it myself since I'm an analog engineer not a digital engineer.

 

[Key]

Never heard of that problem. Generally the weak point of the cards in that range will be the analog stages and/or mic pres that feed the converters (usually cheap op-amps) and the internal clock/crystal that sets the sample rate.