Just one step? Why'd it take so long, then?
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..... I'll get my coatExactly. And it’s a classic mixing move - you want the focus to be on EVH, not Micheal Anthony. The guitar - and the overall sound - will actually be more powerful with the bass and bass drum dialed back and not cluttering up the mix. Templeton and Landee knew what they were doing.
That thought crossed my mind. Eddie's guitar was really the front man in the band's music.
Ya think?
No, it's a coked up late 70s early 80s move.
Do i have any trouble focusing on Jimmy Page when JPJ or Bonham's kick are also audible? Nope.
I disagree that what they were doing made the tracks 'more powerful' than the alternative. It's not like you have an alternate mix of the album to compare it to.
I always thought that Van Halen sounded like crap until one day I really cranked it up. It sounds perfect at ear splitting playback levels!
the equal loudness curve strikes again....
FWIW, 1984 sounds better balanced than the earlier ones.
Total nonsense. Page’s mixes were more varied because Zeps music was more varied (often lots of guitar tracks and keyboards) but he often thinned out the rhythm section or his guitar sound to not muddle the mix by trying to make everything sound big - because when everything is big, nothing is big. He knew what he was doing too.
Hendrix and Cream also used a similar approach of big guitar, small bottom end - and they weren’t coked out late 70s, early 80s mixes. Yet somehow VH, Hendrix and Cream are considered among the most powerful rock music ever created. Counterintuitive? Yes. Coincidence? No.
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1984 has a thin bottom end too. Listen to the bass drum on Jump or Hot For Teacher or Panama. Fair Warning has a bit more bottom end, but by and large the bass drum for VH was always mixed kinda thin.
Tell me where it's 'thinned out' and I'll point to something like 'When the Levee Breaks', where it's massive. Rarely does it sound as anemic as VH. Was that 'progress' in the Templeman control room?
I know few who would rate Hendrix and Cream records as high quality from an audio perspective. You may note that one thing that got a boost on the Electric Ladyland remix was...bass. And that was his best sounding record in the first place.
Have a listen to Robin Trower's Bridge of Sighs (1974). Considered a classic from several perspectives, musical and audio. A quartet of guitar, vocal, bass, drums, like VH. The star player is the guitarist, like VH. But there's plenty of bottom end...unlike early VH.
I said 'better balanced', not ideal.
(The kick that starts 'Hot for Teacher' is iconic, and beefy enough for me)
Beefy enough for you? Great. Iconic? Sure (although I actually think it's a sucky simmons drum sound). But it's clearly EQ'd thin.
You're making the classic mistake of conflating "audio perspective" with actual sound and vibe. Again, if everything is big, nothing is big. Hendrix and Cream are clearly not audiophile recordings...yet in the end, they convey far more energy and are powerful way beyond many, many audiophile recordings. That's not an accident.
When The Levee Breaks does sound massive. But for the most part the bass isn't particularly big sounding (except during that little middle 8 break thing) and it's the stairwell echo that makes the drums sound big. But otherwise the drums sound pretty thin. Most people would be shocked if they actually tried to eq their guitar like Page on many LZ recordings.
People complain about the LZ2 mix often sounding distorted. But that was intentional and it suited what Page was trying to accomplish with the sound. Listen to something like The Ocean. The drum sound by themselves is kinda anemic. But in the mix (along with John Bonham's inherent talent), it sounds incredibly powerful. Again, Page knew what he was doing - less can be more - and he knew not to have multiple instruments fighting each other in the mix.
Listen to something like the mono mix of Paperback Writer. It explodes, yet the drum sound isn't particularly big at all. But the bass and guitar are huge.
I remember reading (an interview maybe) that Page always started with the drum sound before worrying about anything else. I have no idea if he thinned the bass guitar but I don't think he did any such thing with the drums. I also remember reading that the reason he liked Bonham from the start was because of how hard he hit the drums. I'm no audiophile but I've never gotten the feeling that the drums were thin (unless the song called for a thinner sound).
Oh dear, have I done that? I'm blushing with embarrassment. Is there a club I can join that initiates me into the 'actual sound and vibe'?
Does it sound as 'thin' as early VH? Not to me; YMMV. It's no 'Whole Lotta Love', I certainly grant.
But I feel like whatever track I throw at you'll , you'll tell me it doesn't really sound more bassy than early VH.
(Not a word about the Trower? Darnit, have I gotten the sound and vibe just plain wrong again?)
That's one of LZ's worst-sounding tracks, to me. Matter of fact, as I think on it, that whole album could use a remix. But again, what's it to do with the low end anemia of early VH albums? They don't sound like Houses of the Holy
Which again, is not what I'd say about early VH.
How about this: early VH , you think , sounds well-nigh perfect. Others, across years of listening, and despite loving the actual music, have found them a bit lacking in sonic balance. (Maybe, when things sound better 'cranked', it can be a sign that the listener wants more low end heft? That pesky equal loudness curve again.) We've got multiple remasters to choose from, each futzing differently with EQ, but the complaint seems to stick. Since we don't have an alternate mix where someone actually pushed up the faders on Michael Anthony and Alex VH, we'll never know which sounds better, will we?
I didn't say VH1 sounded perfect - whatever that even means. I'm saying the mix - as is - - nearly perfectly captures the energy and goal of the music. Two very different things in my mind.
Yes, you could throw lots of tracks at me that sound more bassy than VH1 (or most of VH's catalog). But who else had EVH and his massive sound?
Again, mixes are trade-offs - and not just aurally. They have to suit the artistic purpose too. And a big bottom-end on VH1 would have made it sound more anemic, not more powerful. Just listen to the earlier demo versions of those songs with more - as you call it - "sonic balance". More bass and bass drum and doubled guitars in the mix - but less emphasis on Ed and Dave. And they don't have near the energy and power of the final mixes. They sound closer to some unmemorable 80s hair band than VH1.
I'll say it again, Templeton and Landee knew what they were doing. And they were trying to create a great rock album, not satisfy people who spent too much time listening to their speakers and not enough actually listening to the music.
...which of course cannot be other than a purely subjective call. And again, without something to compare it to, who can say it couldn't be perfect-er?
you're saying his massive sound -- his brown sound? -- required thinning out the bass from the rest of his band?
AFAIR that sound came from his playing and his amps and settings, developed over years of live performance -- does that mean the bass was thinned out onstage too?
So you keep insisting. You're now saying there's no working space between a demo and Templeman's final mixes? No other way to get Ed and Dave up there in 'energy and power' other than by reducing the bass to cardboard?
LOL. You seem to know *so much* about people you've never met, I'm impressed.
I’ll say this again, it’s classic mix move. Mixing 101.
cbmmm3
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Looks like VanHalen II is getting close to official release. Few weeks perhaps ?
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