Elton John "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" HFPA Blu-Ray Release

[Quad Linda]

Adam, can you please post a BD/DVD-A, and a 2ch BD/MoFi Gold comparison of GBYBR when you can? I own the MoFi Gold, 5.1 SACD and DVD-A. Also, could you please expound on any other differences in the 5.1 mixes beyond those you've addressed? Thanks, in advance.

 

[fredblue]

Adam, can you please post a BD/DVD-A, and a 2ch BD/MoFi Gold comparison of GBYBR when you can? I own the MoFi Gold, 5.1 SACD and DVD-A. Also, could you please expound on any other differences in the 5.1 mixes beyond those you've addressed? Thanks, in advance.

Here we go..



1.) the DJM CD: it has a sparkle to the top end every other digital version lacks and everything else about it feels so natural and so right, it reminds me very much of my old DJM LP and that for me is a very good thing.


2.) the new BDA: is louder than the DJM CD, approx 3-4db master volume in it, this disc is full of detail but not bright, warm bass but not boosted, kick drums have the most impressive impact, mid-range is absolutely exceptional and mid-bass (of which there's a lot) really shows off Dee's talents. I'm going to stick my neck on the block here and say I think Elton's piano really does sound the best on a digital/optical disc I've ever heard it. it's generally louder and bassier than the DJM so its a remaster and not authentic to the tapes (imho.. that's what the old DJM is for) but with similar shimmer to the DJM that is so pleasing but not fatiguing to the ears (cymbals sound like cymbals! for this I am thankful) ...seriously, nobody is as surprised as me, I was dreading hearing the Stereo on this but really I love it! I'm a big 5.1 fan (that's an understatement.,) but I haven't played the surround on this disc yet, I've been too busy lapping up the Stereo.

3.) the MFSL CD: is a bit dull compared to the DJM and hasn't got the in-room presence/sensation of the BDA but is still superb, drums in particular are gorgeous and Elton's voice seems a bit warmer here than any other mastering. as it is, I will not be parting with this one anytime soon. mid-range is lovely and similarly to to the new Blu-ray there's a sort of everything but the kitchen sink presentation without ever feeling clobbered over the head with everything hitting you all at once like so many modern remasters.. its a great mastering but for me lacks that minuscule yet crucial last drop of that breath of life.

4.) the new 2014 CD: bass seems a bit overblown compared to the BDA and to me lacks the air in the treble too, it doesn't have any of the jaw-dropping qualities of the BDA, for me. similarly its a touch (about 3-4db) overall louder than the DJM & MFSL on my rig but it's not overly loud, which is a relief. if its the exact same mastering etc as the BDA I'll eat my top hat! they do not sound the same to me, on my kit. unless it turns out the Hi-Res bit really is making such a difference, this has got to be a CD/iTunes specific Bob Ludwig remaster and the BDA his super-dooper version (given extra love and kisses!) cos it certainly sounds that way.

5.) Gus' 95 remaster: boosted treble is particularly grating in places and there is no life to anything, certain things feel like they've been dialled up or down in the mix which makes me wonder if this really was a remix after all and all the hoopla back in the day about these being the original mixes was a load of bunkum!? I love Gus, he was the most wonderful man, who I had the great pleasure of meeting and lived up to his reputation, full of stories, quirky humour and immense knowledge. "camp Elton" is (imho) the poorer for not having him around. that said, some of Gus' work on the Classic Years remasters really wasn't that great.. I am sure it was all well-meaning but he fiddled with stuff that didn't need it and too many of his moves weren't necessarily for the better (though talking of moves, I was happy when he remastered Blue Moves complete! that felt like a victory after I'd gone on at the fan club and the record company and everyone about the travesty of the 80's CD!) but its the brighter 70's Elton (Caribou, GYBR in particular) and things like Don't Shoot Me which are among his worst remasters (I won't mention the needless remasters of things like 2Lo & RSB..) plus I can't forgive the sloppiness of things like the tape drag/speed fluff after the solo outro of Island Girl on his Westies remaster, being the perfectionist, that should have been spotted. Just as well the superb AF Westies CD (and v.nice DJM) no, Gus' remasters were welcome at the time but far from perfect and it kind of fits in neatly with my comparisons of GYBR, practically every other CD bests it I'm afraid.

6.) SACD Stereo: this, however, is a very distant 6th.. so loud, bright to the point of agony, I don't think the EQ was particularly fiddled with although certain instruments (strings and cymbals) really hurt the ears, I'm left wondering.. FWIW, I had to turn it off prematurely rather than down. whatever happened here I don't know but it just sounds horrific.

I don't have anymore noteworthy stuff to say about the new 5.1 yet but once I've given it another listen & compared to the DVD-A I'll be back here with more.

 

[Jesper]

Thanks fredblue!

 

[fredblue]

Thanks fredblue!

No problemo you're v.welcome!

 

[blue.monk]

2.) the new BDA: is louder than the DJM CD, approx 3-4db master volume in it, this disc is full of detail but not bright, warm bass but not boosted, kick drums have the most impressive impact, mid-range is absolutely exceptional and mid-bass (of which there's a lot) really shows off Dee's talents. I'm going to stick my neck on the block here and say I think Elton's piano really does sound the best on a digital/optical disc I've ever heard it. it's generally louder and bassier than the DJM so its a remaster and not authentic to the tapes (imho.. that's what the old DJM is for) but with similar shimmer to the DJM that is so pleasing but not fatiguing to the ears (cymbals sound like cymbals! for this I am thankful) ...seriously, nobody is as surprised as me, I was dreading hearing the Stereo on this but really I love it! I'm a big 5.1 fan (that's an understatement.,) but I haven't played the surround on this disc yet, I've been too busy lapping up the Stereo.

Thanks fredblue! I'm glad to hear the stereo layer sounds good. Have you compared it to the Japanese SHM SACD? I'm also curious to hear more about the 5.1 mix. You believe it's a different mastering than the 2003 hybrid SACD?

I will most likely order it. It doesn't appear to be available in the States for a few more weeks yet.

 

[fredblue]

Thanks fredblue! I'm glad to hear the stereo layer sounds good. Have you compared it to the Japanese SHM SACD? I'm also curious to hear more about the 5.1 mix. You believe it's a different mastering than the 2003 hybrid SACD?

I will most likely order it. It doesn't appear to be available in the States for a few more weeks yet.

You're welcome blue.monk

I've only just bought the SHM-SACD this week, as so many folks over at the SHF were saying how good it was, I had to give it a go (in for a penny, in for a 14th version of GYBR!!) now I've only played it once so far.. but I liked what I heard.

I will say this however, the SHM-SACD cost me more than 3 times the price of the Blu-ray - I haven't decided yet if it is 3 times its superior..

...moreover the Blu-ray has both Stereo and Surround, the SHM is only in stereo..

.. also worth stating those two mixes & masterings are unique to the Blu-ray: the Stereo 2014 CD has been suggested by one SHF-er who analysed and compared waveforms for both 2014 CD & BD to suffer clipping while the Blu doesn't.. and the 5.1 on the Blu has the various (small to some, big to an Elton fan) differences from the old Hybrid SACD & DVD-A as I've previously mentioned, not least rears slightly lowered in volume and brightness levels slightly tempered to my ears, too.

 

[LizardKing]

....
.. also worth stating those two mixes & masterings are unique to the Blu-ray: the Stereo 2014 CD has been suggested by one SHF-er who analysed and compared waveforms for both 2014 CD & BD to suffer clipping while the Blu doesn't.. and the 5.1 on the Blu has the various (small to some, big to an Elton fan) differences from the old Hybrid SACD & DVD-A as I've previously mentioned, not least rears slightly lowered in volume and brightness levels slightly tempered to my ears, too.

IMHO - It sounds like the "rears slightly lowered in volume and brightness levels slightly tempered" mentioned above merit purchase of this....

I've got the SACD (and heard the DVD-A)... I can't stand the brightness...

 

[Bob Squires Jr]

My problem with it is that on the DVD-A and the SACD, we get 4 extra tracks in both stereo & 5.1
but on the Blu-Ray, they aren't there. (Jackrabbit, Whenever Your Ready, Young Man's Blues and Grey Seal Acoustic.)
Why they do this I have no idea. I have both the SACD and the DVD-A.
I'd happily replace them with the BDA but...
Now I'll probably keep the DVD-A and the BDA.
Unfortunately, selling off either SACD or DVD-A isn't worth much.

 

[fredblue]

My problem with it is that on the DVD-A and the SACD, we get 4 extra tracks in both stereo & 5.1
but on the Blu-Ray, they aren't there. (Jackrabbit, Whenever Your Ready, Young Man's Blues and Grey Seal Acoustic.)
Why they do this I have no idea. I have both the SACD and the DVD-A.
I'd happily replace them with the BDA but...
Now I'll probably keep the DVD-A and the BDA.
Unfortunately, selling off either SACD or DVD-A isn't worth much.

It is a completely moronic omission, I agree.

however, I think I can account for the missing extras, maybe..

..this HFPA was prepared before the decision was taken to abandon the stupid notion of excluding bonus tracks in the name of "purity".. certainly GYBR and Captain Fantastic were eyed up for Blu-ray Audio by Universal as early as this time last year, so its a distinct possibility.. especially as I now suspect more than ever this BDA is not just a straight port of the old SACD.

FWIW, the DVDA is now worth more than the SACD around the rest of the world as it didn't see release outside the U.S.A.

 

[cupboy]

FWIW, the DVDA is now worth more than the SACD around the rest of the world as it didn't see release outside the U.S.A.

Cheapest on AMZ is over $40. I should try unloading mine.

 

[fredblue]

Cheapest on AMZ is over $40. I should try unloading mine.

All the young girls love Amazon..

 

[jasong]

All the young girls love Amazon..

I'm waiting for my Yellow Brick to arrive from Canada. $23 US delivered.

Now-I'll tell you how I met Elton when he was still nobody. In was the early 70's, I was living in LA with my aunt in hollywood. I went to the Troubatour to see Cheech and Chong. the opening act was a guy I never had heard of. The Troub had a stage in the round, I guess they didnt want to put his piano up there and habe to drag it off for Cheech and Chong. So they put it next to the stage on the left hand side. Right next to where I was sitting, 4 feet away. His song - Your Song was just starting to be played on the radio. He and I chatted for a while after he did his set. What a right person he was.

 

[fredblue]

I'm waiting for my Yellow Brick to arrive from Canada. $23 US delivered.

Now-I'll tell you how I met Elton when he was still nobody. In was the early 70's, I was living in LA with my aunt in hollywood. I went to the Troubatour to see Cheech and Chong. the opening act was a guy I never had heard of. The Troub had a stage in the round, I guess they didnt want to put his piano up there and habe to drag it off for Cheech and Chong. So they put it next to the stage on the left hand side. Right next to where I was sitting, 4 feet away. His song - Your Song was just starting to be played on the radio. He and I chatted for a while after he did his set. What a right person he was.

Thank you SO much for that! wonderful!

its times like this I wish we had a "LOVE this post" button!

 

[steelydave]

So I got this disc today and ripped it and did some comparisons with my ripped SACD.

I loaded a couple of tracks that FredBlue mentioned to me (Social Disease and I've Seen That Movie Too) in to Nuendo and compared the BluRay versions against the SACD versions. Mix-wise, the tracks are identical (with the exception of the fade-in to Social Disease, more about that later), when you match their volumes - the BluRay is mastered a bit hotter than the SACD. Here's a chart I prepared earlier of their dynamic range info from foobar2000's dynamic range meter:

Track|Title|Duration|BR DR|BR PEAK|BR RMS|SACD DR|SACD PEAK|SACD RMS
01|Funeral for a Friend/Love Lies Bleeding|11:08|DR10|-0.50 dB|-13.47 dB|DR11|0.00 dB|-13.88 dB
02|Candle in the Wind|3:47|DR11|-0.50 dB|-13.46 dB|DR12|0.00 dB|-13.97 dB
03|Bennie and the Jets|5:24|DR11|-0.50 dB|-13.83 dB|DR12|-0.13 dB|-14.30 dB
04|Goodbye Yellow Brick Road|3:16|DR12|-0.50 dB|-15.08 dB|DR13|0.00 dB|-14.80 dB
05|This Song Has No Title|2:21|DR12|-0.50 dB|-16.17 dB|DR12|-0.46 dB|-16.56 dB
06|Grey Seal|3:58|DR9|-0.50 dB|-11.59 dB|DR9|0.00 dB|-12.05 dB
07|Jamaica Jerk-Off|3:40|DR9|-0.50 dB|-10.85 dB|DR10|-0.51 dB|-11.82 dB
08|I've Seen That Movie Too|5:57|DR10|-0.50 dB|-12.93 dB|DR11|0.00 dB|-13.40 dB
09|Sweet Painted Lady|3:53|DR12|0.00 dB|-14.56 dB|DR12|-0.04 dB|-14.96 dB
10|The Ballad of Danny Bailey (1909-34)|4:24|DR10|-0.50 dB|-12.89 dB|DR10|0.00 dB|-13.30 dB
11|Dirty Little Girl|5:02|DR9|-0.50 dB|-11.41 dB|DR10|0.00 dB|-11.87 dB
12|All the Girls Love Alice|5:07|DR9|-0.50 dB|-12.19 dB|DR10|-0.01 dB|-12.63 dB
13|Your Sister Can't Twist (But She Can Rock 'n Roll)|2:43|DR9|-0.50 dB|-10.62 dB|DR9|-0.34 dB|-11.35 dB
14|Saturday Night's Alright for Fighting|4:54|DR8|-0.50 dB|-9.80 dB|DR9|0.00 dB|-10.28 dB
15|Roy Rogers|4:07|DR12|-0.50 dB|-13.06 dB|DR12|-0.03 dB|-13.49 dB
16|Social Disease|3:43|DR11|0.00 dB|-11.92 dB|DR11|-1.35 dB|-14.18 dB
17|Harmony|2:47|DR10|-0.50 dB|-12.14 dB|DR10|-0.05 dB|-12.59 dB

So the bad news is the BluRay is more compressed than the old SACD mastering, but not by loads. This may account for why the rears sound subjectively 'less loud' on the BluRay, because more compression means the average volume of each channel is getting closer and closer together so nothing sticks out.

Now here's the good news - it appears that this disc, while sourced from the same mix done for the SACDs in 2003, isn't sourced from a DSD master like Beck's 'Sea Change' was, it appears to have pure PCM lineage. Look at this spectral plot:



This is the center channel from 'I've Seen That Movie Too' - I picked this because there are large gaps of silence which make the DSD ultrasonic noise really easy to see. I checked a few other channels on a few other tracks and they're all like this, so I don't think this track is an anomaly. Look at how messy the SACD plot is compared to the BluRay one!

FredBlue mentioned earlier that Social Disease was missing it's fade in, and sure enough it is. Have a look at this screenshot - the top 6 tracks are the new BluRay and the bottom 6 are the old SACD. Not only is the fade-in missing from the BluRay, there's also a bit of extra audio at the beginning of the track in the rear speakers. My best guess here is that the fade-in was done at the DSD mastering stage, and they just forgot to replicate it for this release.



I haven't checked any of the other tracks for fade-in/fade-out differences but if anyone notices anything, let me know.

So all-in-all, another mixed bag I think. Great to finally have the 5.1 mix of this album in pure PCM, but disappointing that they've decided (yet again) to reduce the dynamic range...to what end I do not know. I can't imagine anyone buying a 5.1 mix and then then complaining that the sound wasn't loud or 'in your face' enough!

And in the interest of completeness, here's the DR values for the new remaster of the stereo track:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Elton John / Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (96/24 Stereo)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR8 -0.09 dB -11.35 dB 11:07 01-Funeral for a Friend/Love Lies Bleeding
DR10 -0.10 dB -12.47 dB 3:49 02-Candle in the Wind
DR9 -0.10 dB -11.63 dB 5:23 03-Bennie and the Jets
DR9 -0.09 dB -11.71 dB 3:14 04-Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
DR8 -0.10 dB -11.90 dB 2:23 05-This Song Has No Title
DR8 -0.08 dB -10.49 dB 3:59 06-Grey Seal
DR10 -0.16 dB -11.66 dB 3:38 07-Jamaica Jerk-Off
DR9 -0.09 dB -12.44 dB 5:59 08-I've Seen That Movie Too
DR12 -0.92 dB -14.74 dB 3:54 09-Sweet Painted Lady
DR9 -0.34 dB -12.50 dB 4:22 10-The Ballad of Danny Bailey (1909-34)
DR9 -0.08 dB -10.91 dB 5:02 11-Dirty Little Girl
DR9 -0.09 dB -12.19 dB 5:07 12-All the Girls Love Alice
DR8 -0.09 dB -9.79 dB 2:44 13-Your Sister Can't Twist (But She Can Rock 'n Roll)
DR8 -0.09 dB -10.07 dB 4:54 14-Saturday Night's Alright for Fighting
DR9 -0.11 dB -12.33 dB 4:07 15-Roy Rogers
DR9 -0.09 dB -11.52 dB 3:44 16-Social Disease
DR10 -0.10 dB -12.45 dB 2:46 17-Harmony
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 17
Official DR value: DR9

Samplerate: 96000 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 24
Bitrate: 2948 kbps
Codec: FLAC
================================================================================

 

[fredblue]

Thank you SO much for doing all of this!! Exceptional!

So, here's what I've gathered..

- the fronts are louder than the rears now (this is a good thing, no? they were always louder on the SACD but seemed out of kilter before by comparison.. the surround mix now sounds more balanced and natural due to a sprinkling of magic pure audio dust and that old devil called compression!),

- a few tracks have -1db less dynamic range than the SACD (this is not ideal obviously but the overall DR is still what 12/13? far from the abysmal 6's & 7's that so many of these HFPA's have been plagued by),... EDIT: scrub that, the Blu 5.1's a DR 11 (to put it into perspective, the MFSL is DR 12 and the DJM CD is DR 13.. all fairly respectable),

- the noise floor (or whatever) is now free of DSD "artefacts" (is that a diplomatic way of saying noise and garbage!?) and so you have complete digital silence in silent passages (could this be part of why I'm enjoying the BDA much more than the SACD?),

- they did screw up the fade up at the beginning of Social Disease.. but left a little bonus sound effect in the rear channels (crazy daft stupid sloppy oversight.. but it's even more of a remix now and the BD is totally unique in that no other mix or mastering of this album has the song at full volume all the way through! I always thought the fade up on the old SACD was pretty poor and nothing like the gradual increase in volume of the original stereo mix, now they've done away with it altogether!).. every cloud has a silver lining.. it's just a shame whoever plonked this on the BD was asleep at the wheel for that bit because they were obviously doing something in other respects with regard to DRC etc!!

so.. how do we account for the reduced brightness I'm experiencing on the Blu? have you noticed it too Dave, just listening to the two? the SACD has more edge and tizz to the top end, the BD is smoother, is there any data in your analysis findings to support this? Or is it just a big fat Blu-ray placebo pill I swallowed!

FWIW and to be serious for a sec., I listened very intently, very very carefully to both 5.1's, at the same master volume, with no individual channel level adjustments in between going from SACD to BDA and back again.. and the BD seemed no louder than the SACD, just smoother and with more even front to back balance.

I guess its easier to detect loudness increase and perceive as better sound than quieter due to all that Fletcher Munson shenanigans.. and the way human hearing works.. or whatever it is!?

anyhoo.. it's not all bad news and I have to say hand on heart as someone who has heard the SACD hundreds of times and the Stereo thousands of times, there's a lot of positives about the Blu-ray from both a stereo and 5.1 listening perspective imho., I won't be going back to the old SACD anytime soon, unless the desire to hear the bonuses in 5.1 comes over me of course!

Thank you once again, its good to have scientific proof both debunk my listening findings and refreshing & reassuring (comforting even!) it supports it in other respects

Edit 2: right I'm off to bed, had a few and goita be up for work.. Boo!

GoodNight QQ-ers
l and Thanks Dave, you're a Ledge! :banana:

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

Just what I need.....another copy of EJ's "GBYBR". Thanks fredblue! You just had to twist my arm and make me pre-order a copy?!

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

Oh, crap! I think I need to order a yellow vinyl copy too. Damn you Fred!!!

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (ProStudioMasters 24/96)

foobar2000 1.3.1 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2014-03-27 16:33:04

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Elton John / Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (40th Anniversary Celebration)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR8 0.00 dB -11.35 dB 11:07 01-Funeral For A Friend / Love Lies Bleeding (2014 Remaster)
DR10 -0.08 dB -12.47 dB 3:49 02-Candle In The Wind (2014 Remaster)
DR9 0.00 dB -11.63 dB 5:23 03-Bennie And The Jets (2014 Remaster)
DR9 0.00 dB -11.71 dB 3:13 04-Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (2014 Remaster)
DR8 0.00 dB -11.90 dB 2:23 05-This Song Has No Title (2014 Remaster)
DR8 0.00 dB -10.49 dB 4:00 06-Grey Seal (2014 Remaster)
DR10 0.00 dB -11.66 dB 3:38 07-Jamaica Jerk-Off (2014 Remaster)
DR10 0.00 dB -12.44 dB 5:58 08-I've Seen That Movie Too (2014 Remaster)
DR12 -1.02 dB -14.74 dB 3:54 09-Sweet Painted Lady (2014 Remaster)
DR9 -0.33 dB -12.50 dB 4:23 10-The Ballad Of Danny Bailey (1909-1934) (2014 Remaster)
DR9 0.00 dB -10.91 dB 5:00 11-Dirty Little Girl (2014 Remaster)
DR9 0.00 dB -12.19 dB 5:08 12-All The Girls Love Alice (2014 Remaster)
DR8 0.00 dB -9.85 dB 2:42 13-Your Sister Can't Twist (But She Can Rock'n' Roll) (2014 Remaster)
DR8 0.00 dB -10.11 dB 4:55 14-Saturday Night's Alright For Fighting (2014 Remaster)
DR10 0.00 dB -12.33 dB 4:07 15-Roy Rogers (2014 Remaster)
DR9 0.00 dB -11.51 dB 3:43 16-Social Disease (2014 Remaster)
DR10 0.00 dB -12.37 dB 2:45 17-Harmony (2014 Remaster)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 17
Official DR value: DR9

Samplerate: 96000 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 24
Bitrate: 2978 kbps
Codec: FLAC

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

^ The ProStudioMasters DR is the same as the CD release.

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

steelydave,

Sorry if I missed it but are the DR values that you Posted taken from the two-channel or multi-channel of both BD and SACD?