LFE Response: Perfect for some Titles, Crap for Others?

Hey guys!

I've been wondering about this ever since I bought my Samsung HW-C560S sound system back in 2010. When it comes to bass, some (most, thankfully) of my titles play with full, clear, strong bass while some sound like transistor radios played inside a tin can. Of course, some titles just sound bad period, but there are others where people here report loving them, and they just suck on my system.

I have set my crossover frequency to 200 Hz and have amplified the subwoofer in the receiver's menu over the other speakers, but there's no saving the weaker titles. They have virtually no LFE response - the subwoofer remains as good as silent, meaning all the music comes from the other 5 (tiny!) speakers. I never got to the bottom of why that is.

Examples for great-sounding titles:

- Peter Gabriel - PLAY (DTS)
- Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms (SACD)
- Rush - Moving Pictures (Blu Ray)
- Mike Oldfield - Tubular Bells (Dolby Digital)
- Metallica - Black Album (DVD-A)

Titles that sound bad to me, but people say they sound great:

- Tea Party - Illuminations (DTS DVD)
- Bob Dylan - Another Side, Bringing it all back home, Blonde on Blonde, Blood on the Tracks (all SACD). It gets better on "Slow Train" and "Love and Theft".
- Rush - 2112 (Blu Ray)
- Pet Shop Boys - Pandemonium (Dolby Digital)
- Larisa Stow - Moment by Moment (DVD-A) (though this one isn't SO bad)

Now, my sound system is not a top-notch item. It's an "in-a-box" solution with small front, center and back speakers that fit into the palm of your hand (or in case of the center, into the palms of your two hands^^). So I get that. But what are my options here? About the titles I listed as sounding bad above, what's with them?

I mean, are they just mixed to not use the subwoofer? That would mean they'll sound great once I get a decent receiver and a set of large front speakers. But if so, what's the point of a 5.1 mix? I mean, we're talking .1 as in subwoofer.

What are your experiences? Do I just have a crappy system, or is it in the mix? What systems do you use, did you have to tweak their settings to get good bass out of some titles? What receiver and speakers do you recommend for a moderate budget (say, 1200 bucks or so)?

Thanks!

It sounds like maybe the bass in the non-LFE channels may not be getting directed to the subwoofer. Is all audio being transferred to your receiver using HDMI? Or, is decoding being done in a player (and transferred in analog to the receiver)? If so, what player?

If your sub is nearly silent for some titles, then I think it is a system, or a system setup issue. Bass may not be getting redirected correctly.

In my system, I do have to adjust the sub between titles on occasion, but never more than 3db, and usually a tweak of 1db is enough to correct the balance. My hi-res decoding is done in an Oppo BDP-83SE. For movies, I let my preamp/processor do the decoding.

I use a crossover point of 60 or 80hz (I can't remember), but my speakers are pretty much full range. You could try lowering the crossover point just to see what happens. Maybe the overly high crossover point is exposing a bug in the system. Perhaps try a factory reset (if possible) and start from that point.

For gear recommendations, I like Emotiva (http://www.emotiva.com/). There stuff is a great value, and their customer service is unbelievable. 5 year transferrable warranties on all electronics. I own their power amps and preamp/processor. I have some of their speakers in a second system, and they are also a good value.

I have friends who have owned Pioneer Elite, Marantz, and Denon receivers and have been happy with them.

But, if the budget is tight, I suggest looking second hand. Since you are Canadian (like me) keep your eye on http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/. It is basically an audio classified adds site. I've bought a lot of gear on CAM over the years, and have never had an issue.

These speakers are all the rage right now a the best "bang for the buck". I've never heard them, however, so I can't comment on how they sound. http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649038928-pioneer_shsaj2_andrew_jones_designed_51_speaker_package/

Good luck!

This might help:

www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?7683-The-LFE-bug

BTW - There isn't much bass in the Dylan titles you mention....

LizardKing said:

BTW - There isn't much bass in the Dylan titles you mention....

Click to expand...

True. But, there is lots in The Tea Party - Illuminations, and an adequate amount in Rush - 2112. I think something else must be going on.

The link that Cibola posted is a good one. That could be the cause.

Hey guys, thanks for the replies. I should have mentioned I already read through the LFE Bug thread, which is pretty close to what I'm experiencing, though I'm not sure it's the same thing - and even if it is, it seems like there's no real solution except buying good gear (e.g. Denon).

SMS, thanks for your analysis - this is about what I was thinking as well. I have a variety of components working together in different constellations. Let's see.

• My player is the Oppo BDP-83 (not SE). It is connected to the receiver via HDMI 1.4.
• My computer runs on Linux (Windows as secondary) and uses an external Creative X-Fi Surround Pro sound card. It goes into the receiver via 6-channel analogue.

I'll admit that lately, I have been playing back most of my music from the PC. I have digital rips of every title I own and the sound is exactly the same whether I play a surround title on the PC (ripped files) or from the Oppo (actual disc).

Here's where it gets interesting: playing back a redbook CD from the Oppo makes it sound terrible. The receiver directs next to none of the low-frequency info to the sub. However, when I play a stereo source from the PC (e.g. MP3s, or CDs from the CD drive), the sound is amazing.

It seems like the Sound Blaster card does its own bass management for stereo sources and directs the correct amount of low-frequency info to the sub channel. Moreover, it nicely spreads the stereo material over the 5.1 channels (no Pro Logic stuff or anything like that, just 5-channel stereo with, as it seems to me, a bit of emphasis on the center).

Back before I used to rip my surround music to my PC, I used to have the Sound Blaster connected to the receiver via optical. This caused DTS and DD sources to sound the same as when played through the Oppo, but stereo sources, again, sounded tinny - though post-processed with DPLII in the receiver.

From reading your responses, this is what I think is happening: no matter what, the receiver does no bass management whatsoever. It just plays what it's fed. If there is little to no information in the sub channel (like in the Bob Dylan discs), that's what it plays. The Peter Gabriel DVD has lots of info in the sub channel, so it sounds fine.

Btw, I played "John Wesley Harding" (Stereo SACD rip) through my Sound Blaster and it sounded nice. Sure, not a truckload of bass, but it sounded really good. Again, I guess that's because of the Sound Blaster's processing of the stereo source when I set its output option in Ubuntu/Windows to "5.1 Surround". If I was using the Sound Blaster's S/PDIF optical out, it would just pass the 2 channels through like it does now with Surround sources. Does this make sense?

My receiver has options in its menu where I can define whether I have small or large front L/R speakers, but changing that setting does nothing to the sound. Also, the crossover is at 200 Hz now, but if I go down to 60 or 80, it just makes the LFE respond even less.

So what I'm wondering is, from your experience, how should a good receiver behave in regards to bass management? I mean, say I keep the small speakers: will a good receiver automatically "know" what's coming in?

• For Stereo sources, would it intelligently direct the low frequencies to the LFE channel?
• For Surround sources, would it "know" if there's already sufficient info available in the mix's LFE channel and redirect low frequencies as appropriate?

Because if I'm hearing unprocessed 5.1 sound here, then that means the Dylan SACDs just have next to nothing in the LFE while 3 Doors Down "Seventeen Days" has a whopping lot. Actually, I just looked it up in Audacity. That is exactly what's happening. A track from "Blonde on Blonde" has virtually nothing in the LFE channel, while a "Seventeen Days" track has lots of info. So would a nice Denon receiver direct the low frequencies from front L/R to the sub correctly and turn 3DD into bass overkill by adding the low frequencies on top of what's already in the LFE channel?

Also, it gets even weirder with some quad conversions I have. Take for instance Santana - Abraxas and America - Hearts. Both are from Quad reels. Both were done (I think) by Romanotrax. Both do not have LFE channels and Santana sounds flat and tinny while America sounds rich and full. What's my equipment doing in this case? If I bought better equipment, would Santana suddenly sound good while America sinks into a mess of thundering bass?

Sorry for the long post but I'm really curious about understanding the technology behind this. Thanks for your help, guys!

SMS said:

It sounds like maybe the bass in the non-LFE channels may not be getting directed to the subwoofer. Is all audio being transferred to your receiver using HDMI? Or, is decoding being done in a player (and transferred in analog to the receiver)? If so, what player?

If your sub is nearly silent for some titles, then I think it is a system, or a system setup issue. Bass may not be getting redirected correctly.

In my system, I do have to adjust the sub between titles on occasion, but never more than 3db, and usually a tweak of 1db is enough to correct the balance. My hi-res decoding is done in an Oppo BDP-83SE. For movies, I let my preamp/processor do the decoding.

I use a crossover point of 60 or 80hz (I can't remember), but my speakers are pretty much full range. You could try lowering the crossover point just to see what happens. Maybe the overly high crossover point is exposing a bug in the system. Perhaps try a factory reset (if possible) and start from that point.

For gear recommendations, I like Emotiva (http://www.emotiva.com/). There stuff is a great value, and their customer service is unbelievable. 5 year transferrable warranties on all electronics. I own their power amps and preamp/processor. I have some of their speakers in a second system, and they are also a good value.

I have friends who have owned Pioneer Elite, Marantz, and Denon receivers and have been happy with them.

But, if the budget is tight, I suggest looking second hand. Since you are Canadian (like me) keep your eye on http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/. It is basically an audio classified adds site. I've bought a lot of gear on CAM over the years, and have never had an issue.

These speakers are all the rage right now a the best "bang for the buck". I've never heard them, however, so I can't comment on how they sound. http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649038928-pioneer_shsaj2_andrew_jones_designed_51_speaker_package/

Good luck!

Click to expand...

I gotta kick in here, the Emotiva is a slam dunk response to quality sound. No stupid dsp soundfields that in my estimation are worthless, and it offers clean playback, the speakers at the mart are terrific! This is close to high end shit as you can get without blowing a wad of cash.

leevitalone1 said:

I gotta kick in here, the Emotiva is a slam dunk response to quality sound. No stupid dsp soundfields that in my estimation are worthless, and it offers clean playback, the speakers at the mart are terrific! This is close to high end shit as you can get without blowing a wad of cash.

Click to expand...

Looking good. Do you know if these guys all work with 120 and 240 V / 50 and 60 Hz? If I invest in a big-time receiver, I wanna be able to keep it when I move back to Germany.

I saw one photo of a back panel when I just took a quick look and it seems to do it.

The Bright Side said:

Looking good. Do you know if these guys all work with 120 and 240 V / 50 and 60 Hz? If I invest in a big-time receiver, I wanna be able to keep it when I move back to Germany.

I saw one photo of a back panel when I just took a quick look and it seems to do it.

Click to expand...

I would question the maker, I suspect it does as most good shit does have a switch for voltage as they know it may go overseas/or it's made out of the US. You guys have me going as I am looking for a new avr, but don't want all the BS
like a FM radio that I never listen to anyway. Or DSP. Worthless. Clean - to the point - no frills but maybe equalization.

The Bright Side said:

Looking good. Do you know if these guys all work with 120 and 240 V / 50 and 60 Hz? If I invest in a big-time receiver, I wanna be able to keep it when I move back to Germany.

I saw one photo of a back panel when I just took a quick look and it seems to do it.

Click to expand...

My brother has an Emotiva pre-amp & a 3 channel power amp (imported from the US). They run using (real) 240V power ...

The Bright Side said:

Looking good. Do you know if these guys all work with 120 and 240 V / 50 and 60 Hz? If I invest in a big-time receiver, I wanna be able to keep it when I move back to Germany.

I saw one photo of a back panel when I just took a quick look and it seems to do it.

Click to expand...

Yep... all Emotiva gear is made to work with 120V and 240V.

Emotiva doesn't make receivers though. Only separate pre-amp/processors and power amps. But the combination of a UMC200 (pre/pro) and a UPA700 (7 channel amp) will cost you $1100 before tax. That is similar in price to a good receiver, and the Emotiva gear will trounce all but the most expensive receivers. Keep your eyes open, and you may find some used. The transferable 5 year warranty makes Emotiva gear very risk-free to buy second hand.

Thanks! I'll need to save up for it, but I will keep it in mind.

The Bright Side said:

So what I'm wondering is, from your experience, how should a good receiver behave in regards to bass management? I mean, say I keep the small speakers: will a good receiver automatically "know" what's coming in?

• For Stereo sources, would it intelligently direct the low frequencies to the LFE channel?
• For Surround sources, would it "know" if there's already sufficient info available in the mix's LFE channel and redirect low frequencies as appropriate?

Click to expand...

For stereo sources, yes, the low frequencies should be redirected to your sub if your front speakers are set to small. But, play around with the settings and different "modes" in your receiver. It may be set to some mode that is preventing that.

For Surround sources, any non-LFE content below the crossover frequency should be sent to the sub IN ADDITION to the already existing LFE content. Again, this is assuming you have set your speakers to "small" or have set a crossover point.

I suggest trying to connect the Oppo to the analog inputs of your receiver. The Oppo has decent bass management (similar to what a receiver should have). It works well for me on the SE, and I think the firmware should be the same.

Also check the Oppo settings. You may be able to tell the Oppo to do all decoding and output 7.1 PCM over HDMI. That may work better. Or, if that is the way you have it currently set, then maybe it is causing problems. Perhaps your receiver doesn't handle multichannel PCM correctly.