Are They 4.0 or 5.1 SACD Surround Sound?

[marpow]

I have a question. Are all the Vocalion releases in SACD 4.0 ? Have any been in 5.1?
The reason I ask, is the 15 or so that I own are all in 4.0 and they all give reference to a Quadraphonic Catalog number.
The 7" X 7" Japanese SACD releases that are in surround have the Quadraphonic gold album jacket but some are in 5.1.
Confusing for a beginner such as myself.

 

[4-earredwonder]

I have a question. Are all the Vocalion releases in SACD 4.0 ? Have any been in 5.1?
The reason I ask, is the 15 or so that I own are all in 4.0 and they all give reference to a Quadraphonic Catalog number.
The 7" X 7" Japanese SACD releases that are in surround have the Quadraphonic gold album jacket but some are in 5.1.
Confusing for a beginner such as myself.

A lot of the 5.1s, Markie, were derived from 4.0 masters. AFAIK, all the D~V SACDs were from the original QUAD master tapes with no manipulation to add a center and LFE channel.

Here's a listing of the Billy Joel QUAD SACDs
BILLY JOEL -
Piano Man. Columbia PCQ-32544 (SQ), L-72544 (Q8)
Streetlife Serenade. Columbia PCQ-33146 (SQ), L-73146 (Q8)
Turnstiles. Columbia PCQ-33848 (SQ)
The Entertainer B/W Chicago-Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is
Columbia ASQ 192 (SQ45)

During the 00's, some of Joel's albums [like 52nd Street] were remixed into 5.1. The Carole King Tapestry SACD was originally QUAD but then reformatted for 5.1.

 

[marpow]

A lot of the 5.1s, Markie, were derived from 4.0 masters. AFAIK, all the D~V SACDs were from the original QUAD master tapes with no manipulation to add a center and LFE channel.

So if it was derived from an original QUAD master and is 5.1, that means it was manipulated to be 5.1? Makes sense, because a ton of people on QQ always reference that there is or was an original QUAD tape and therefore would be nice if the record company released a surround disc. I think I am getting it. I never bought a QUAD record back in the day so I have no experience. Thanks Ralphie !!

 

[sjcorne]

So if it was derived from an original QUAD master and is 5.1, that means it was manipulated to be 5.1?

On the Sony Japan discs that are quad (Jeff Beck, Miles Davis, Santana), the Center Channel is a low level mono mix of all four channels. When I play those discs I mute the Center and toss it altogether when doing a rip to PC.

AF and DV’s quad reissues have no added Center (or sub).

 

[sjcorne]

The Carole King Tapestry SACD was originally QUAD but then reformatted for 5.1.

Wrong. Tapestry is a completely different mix than the quad. The quad mix of Tapestry is actually worse than the tepid 5.1- it’s completely fake (upmix from stereo).

 

[marpow]

On the Sony Japan discs that are quad (Jeff Beck, Miles Davis, Santana), the Center Channel is a low level mix of all four channels. When I play those discs I mute the Center and toss it altogether when doing a rip to PC.

AF and DV’s quad reissues have no added Center (or sub).

Interesting. The reason I asked this question because I am ripping all these. Today I played them all for a few seconds to see if the center amp needle moved, it did but was weak on the Japanese, Carol Kings Tapestry was not a weak center.
I want to tag them as either 4.0 or 5.1 after the rip. That is a good tip to mute the center on the Japanese.
The DV and the AF's are easy as the center is clearly empty. AF would at least mark them 4.0 or 5.1. I assume per my original question that DV has no 5.1's? The ones that I own are all 4.0.

 

[sjcorne]

I assume per my original question that DV has no 5.1's? The ones that I own are all 4.0.

Yes, DV are all quad.

Carol Kings Tapestry was not a weak center.

Correct- as Tapestry is a 5.1 mix and not a quad.

 

[4-earredwonder]

Wrong. Tapestry is a completely different mix than the quad. The quad mix of Tapestry is actually worse than the tepid 5.1- it’s completely fake (upmix from stereo).

Interesting as there's very little surround activity. I had the original QUAD LP but my SQ receiver was crap and I never had an opportunity to hear it properly decoded. Still sounds like an up mix although I do think the newest SONY Japan 5.1 is incrementally better than the domestic US original [probably because I'm 'assuming' they utilized DSD QUAD remastering from the original analogue masters.]

Thanks for the clarification. Ya learn something new every day.

 

[sjcorne]

. I had the original QUAD LP but my SQ receiver was crap and I never had an opportunity to hear it properly decoded.

Tapestry was never released in SQ. Only as a Q8 tape in the US and a CD-4 LP in Japan.

You might be thinking of Music, which was QS here.

 

[4-earredwonder]

Tapestry was never released in SQ. Only as a Q8 tape in the US and a CD-4 LP in Japan.

You might be thinking of Music, which was QS here.

You're right. I gave up on listening to SQ/QS/CD~4 LPs when I finally invested in a TEAC 4 channel Open Reel Deck w/outboard dolby b decoder. Too bad ALL those Surround LPs never made it onto QUAD OR.

Those were frustrating times.

 

[sjcorne]

What's really interesting (regarding @marpow's question about quad discs actually being presented in 5.1), is that these unnecessary derived center channels on some quad discs are not created equal. Sony Japan does a simple downmix of all four channels and leaves it low so it doesn't really interfere with the front image. Still don't really see the point, but it doesn't do any damage.

Those old DTS/Brad Miller quad discs (Poco Crazy Eyes, the two Wings quads, etc) did a similar thing- the center channel is a low level mono blend of the front channels.

However, some quad mixes released digitally have been seriously tampered with. There have been obvious channel mix-ups (Ten Years After, Gentles Giant) and the worst example I can think of is the Isley Brothers' 3+3, where all the channel balances are screwed up (why, Sony, why?).

 

[4-earredwonder]

What's really interesting (regarding @marpow's question about going from quad to 5.1), is that these unnecessary derived center channels on some quad discs are not created equal. Sony Japan does a simple downmix of all four channels and leaves it low so it doesn't really interfere with the front image.

However, some quad mixes released digitally have been seriously tampered with. There have been obvious channel mix-ups (Ten Years After, Gentles Giant) and the worst example I can think of is the Isley Brothers' 3+3, where all the channel balances are screwed up (why, Sony, why?).

I think it's done to appease owners of 5.1 systems. I agree.....properly imaged, one's speakers derive a perfect phantom center from l/f and l/r speakers. But twinks who never grew up with QUAD have NO idea what it is and prefer their surround in a 5.1 configuration [and now 7.1].

I know Elliot Scheiner and even Steve Wilson were not really 5.1 fans noting the confusion of what to place in the center channel. But they did a quick learn ........by necessity.

Pertaining to your last question, it's amazing how D~V seem to get all their QUAD SACDs right and the channel, phase screw~ups from SONY, et alia, are not all that rare. I remember purchasing the MLP DVD~A of Cassandra Wilson's Traveling Miles and on the hi res portion [not the DTS] of the DVD~A there was no right front channel [or was it left]. And DTS Entertainment never offered replacements [probably because they very shortly thereafter stopped producing DISCS altogether].

And as you noted, the Ten Years After "A Space In Time" is a disgrace......with NO replacement discs in sight.

 

[sjcorne]

I know Elliot Scheiner and even Steve Wilson were not really 5.1 fans noting the confusion of what to place in the center channel. But they did a quick learn ........by necessity.

Interesting you say that as, since the beginning, SW essentially builds his mix around the center channel, placing lead vocals and spotlight instrumental solos completely through that channel.

I agree ES never really figured out what to use it for. He claimed in an interview years ago he would like to place vocals in the center as SW does today, but he was afraid consumers' center channels were an afterthought. However, I read another story claiming Don Henley scolded him for placing completely vocals through the center on the Hells Freezes Over 5.1 mix (the ONLY time he's ever done that in 50+ surround mixes), so he never did it again.

The center on his mixes is usually some doubled vocals and bass from the front channels, BUT occasionally he actually does fully isolate stuff in there- such as the violin solo in R.E.M.'s "Electrolite", some whisper backing vocals in Porcupine Tree's "Blackest Eyes", saxophone in Toto's "Make Believe", piano during the guitar solo section in Skynyd’s “Free Bird”, a guitar highlight during the breakdown solo section in GnR's "Rocket Queen", and likely many other examples I can't think of.

Sorry mods, I know this is all OT and belongs somewhere else, but I think it's fascinating.

 

[4-earredwonder]

Interesting you say that as, since the beginning, SW essentially builds his mix around the center channel, placing lead vocals and spotlight instrumental solos completely through that channel.

I agree ES never really figured out what to use it for, he claimed in an interview years ago he would like to place vocals in the center as SW does today, but he was afraid consumers' center channels were an afterthought. However, I read another story claiming Don Henley scolded him for placing completely vocals through the center on the Hells Freezes Over 5.1 mix (the ONLY time he's ever done that in 50+ surround mixes), so he never did it again.

The center on his mixes is usually some doubled vocals and bass from the front channels, BUT occasionally he actually does fully isolate stuff in there- such as the violin solo in R.E.M.'s "Electrolite", some whisper backing vocals in Porcupine Tree's "Blackest Eyes", a guitar highlight during the breakdown solo in GnR's "Rocket Queen", and likely many others I can't think of.

Sorry mods, I know this is all OT and belongs somewhere else, but I think it's fascinating.

In an interview, it was Steve Wilson who actually called Stereo multichannel because of the 'perfect' center channel created by the l/f/l/r speakers. In essence, QUAD IS 5.0. The center channel was created for motion pictures as a prioritized dialogue channel.

 

[marpow]

One of the most fascinating learning experiences I've had on QQ, posts 774 thru 787.

 

[bmoura]

The Dutton Vocalion reissues from Sony Music's 4 Channel Quad catalog are 4.0 Surround Sound.
The new Dutton Surround SACDs are likely 5.0 or 5.1 recordings.

 

[edisonbaggins]

Here's a listing of the Billy Joel QUAD SACDs
BILLY JOEL -
Piano Man. Columbia PCQ-32544 (SQ), L-72544 (Q8)
Streetlife Serenade. Columbia PCQ-33146 (SQ), L-73146 (Q8)
Turnstiles. Columbia PCQ-33848 (SQ)
The Entertainer B/W Chicago-Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is
Columbia ASQ 192 (SQ45)

You tellin' Baggy he has neglected to track down Piano Man, Turnstiles & The Entertainer on quad SACD?!

 

[JediJoker]

Here's a listing of the Billy Joel QUAD SACDs
BILLY JOEL -
Piano Man. Columbia PCQ-32544 (SQ), L-72544 (Q8)
Streetlife Serenade. Columbia PCQ-33146 (SQ), L-73146 (Q8)
Turnstiles. Columbia PCQ-33848 (SQ)
The Entertainer B/W Chicago-Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is
Columbia ASQ 192 (SQ45)

You tellin' Baggy he has neglected to track down Piano Man, Turnstiles & The Entertainer on quad SACD?!

I don't think so. The only SACDs listed on Discogs for Piano Man and Turnstiles are the Mobile Fidelity UDSACDs, which are stereo-only hybrids. Streetlife Serenade, however, did see a hybrid multichannel release on Audio Fidelity with the stereo mix expertly mastered by Steve Hoffman. I haven't had a chance to listen to the quad mix yet, which was mastered by Stephen Marsh. Those other two would be prime candidates for DV.

 

[edisonbaggins]

I don't think so. The only SACDs listed on Discogs for Piano Man and Turnstiles are the Mobile Fidelity UDSACDs, which are stereo-only hybrids. Streetlife Serenade, however, did see a hybrid multichannel release on Audio Fidelity with the stereo mix expertly mastered by Steve Hoffman. I haven't had a chance to listen to the quad mix yet, which was mastered by Stephen Marsh. Those other two would be prime candidates for DV.

I've got Streelight. It's DOPE. Would be highly motivated to pick up Piano Man and Turnstiles.

 

[Fourplay]

You tellin' Baggy he has neglected to track down Piano Man, Turnstiles & The Entertainer on quad SACD?!

Perhaps he is inferring that they are quad encoded SQ? They were not released as discrete multichannel SACDs afaik