Converting MCH discs 101: Overview

QuadraphonicQuad

Help Support QuadraphonicQuad:

ssully

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Jul 2, 2003
Messages
3,470
Location
in your face
Thanks. My problem is that I don't know what bit depth it is originally. When I try to rip in DVD Audio Extractor there is an option for the sampling frequency to be kept as per the original, but there is not that option for DD. Unless I'm misunderstanding something. So I have to choose the bit depth with no clue as to what it 'should' be.

Sample rate and bit depth are two different and independent parameters. One will not tell you the other. But typical DTS ('core') and Dolby Digital are 48 kHz sample rate , 24 bits bit depth. DTS 96/24 is 96kHz, 24 bit.
 

boondocks

Senior Surround Collector
QQ Supporter
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
2,757
Location
State of Being
I understood that his application offers to change bit depth upwards when decoding DD. Not sure why, but I personally would use an app I knew did this the right way. But here again, I don't know why for archive purposes you would increase the bit depth of a rip.
Now if you were doing further processing of some type, then yeah, it's feasible to increase the bit depth to 24 or even 32 float.
 

artwwweb

300 Club - QQ All-Star
Joined
Dec 23, 2010
Messages
365
Thanks everybody for your replies.

I went hunting and came across this on Dolby Digital & Surround

So that says 'up to 24 bit'. So to be safe it looks like it's best to rip at 24 bit (though that might be wasteful if it happens to be a 16 bit encoding).

If you are *decoding* to wav/flac files as you rip (which is what it sounds like you are doing) stick with what the original sample rate and bit depth are (assuming you have a choice). Standard DTS and Dolby audio are 48kHz sample rate, 24 bit. DTS 96/24 is of course 96kHz, 24 bit. If you are very concerned with space you could downsample 96kHz files to 48kHz without likely audible effect. Converting from 24 bit to 16 it will reduce file size too but you have to do it correctly , with dither, or there could be 'truncation' artifacts audible during quiet parts of the audio.

Dead right, I'm ripping to flac. As per the above, it looks like at least some are 24 bit but not necessarily all (unless you know for sure?). It's just that I felt it would have been a waste to rip all discs at 24 if they were always 16, especially with DD being a lower sound quality than lossless or DTS.

The 96 -> 48 thing is something that has occurred to me. It would halve the file size, which is significant, with little loss for me - I'm not sure I can tell the difference between 96 and 48k.

Sample rate and bit depth are two different and independent parameters. One will not tell you the other. But typical DTS ('core') and Dolby Digital are 48 kHz sample rate , 24 bits bit depth. DTS 96/24 is 96kHz, 24 bit.

Oh yes, I understand that, I was just saying that sample rate is read from the disc and suggested as a default, but bit depth is not, so I have no idea what it actually is and therefore what it should be in the flac. I have never seen bit depth mentioned for a DD track, whereas DTS is often quoted. (And I mean within software, on the liner notes, or via my blu ray or DVD Audio player.)
 

artwwweb

300 Club - QQ All-Star
Joined
Dec 23, 2010
Messages
365
I understood that his application offers to change bit depth upwards when decoding DD. Not sure why, but I personally would use an app I knew did this the right way. But here again, I don't know why for archive purposes you would increase the bit depth of a rip.
Now if you were doing further processing of some type, then yeah, it's feasible to increase the bit depth to 24 or even 32 float.
Yes, that was kind of my concern. If I'm ripping a 16 bit DD disc (if they exist) and yet it offers 24 bit, it does seem a bit strange. I assumed DVDAE didn't suggest a bit rate because it couldn't tell, and, as I've said above, bit rate on DD does seem to be rather obscure. Unless I've just been unlucky with the discs, software and players I've got. Does anybody's player report the bit depth for DD? (Though it would be a pain to have to play the disc just to discover the bit rate before I ripped it even if mine did!)

Anyway, short answer to my intial question is: rip at 24 bit.
 

HomerJAU

Moderator: MCH Media Players
Staff member
Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Messages
5,047
Location
Melbourne, Australia
24 bit vs 16 bit doesn’t make a huge difference to file size. Disc space is cheap. Furthermore, there’s not many DD releases anyway so even smaller impact on disc requirements.
 
Last edited:

ssully

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Jul 2, 2003
Messages
3,470
Location
in your face
I understood that his application offers to change bit depth upwards when decoding DD. Not sure why, but I personally would use an app I knew did this the right way. But here again, I don't know why for archive purposes you would increase the bit depth of a rip.
Now if you were doing further processing of some type, then yeah, it's feasible to increase the bit depth to 24 or even 32 float.


Yes, other than doing some sort of digital post production, there's no reason I can think of to change bit depth upward during decoding, which would only pad the file with empty bits....except maybe if you have a legacy DTS-CD file (those are16 bit) ...and your system can't play it for whatever reason....then upconverting it to 24 bits might make it recognizable? Just guessing.

Never mind, see below!
 
Last edited:

ssully

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Jul 2, 2003
Messages
3,470
Location
in your face
Oops, I was wrong -- DD (AC3) is nominally 16 bits but supports 24 bits. And from what I'm reading, the actual bit depth of both DD and DTS work out in practice to ~18 bits. Its actually not quite right to talk about 'bit depth' of lossy encodes, but rather, bit *rate*.


As per wikipedia
Bit depth is only meaningful in reference to a PCM digital signal. Non-PCM formats, such as lossy compression formats, do not have associated bit depths.

You could of course talk about the bit depth of the audio data that was *input* to the lossy compressor when the disc was produced...but they don;t tell us that (though I think that;s what's meant by DTS "96/24")

ffmpeg for example will tell you "bit depth is "Not Applicable" to AAC audio" if you feed a DD file its ffprobe information tool.

Which, I guess, is why you are offered a choice of bit depths when decoding with DVDAE. Given this, I'd go with 24 bit decoding as standard for peace of mind. (I typically leave my DTS and DD rips as raw bitstreams, so the decoding is left up to the decoder in my AVR)
 
Last edited:

HomerJAU

Moderator: MCH Media Players
Staff member
Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Messages
5,047
Location
Melbourne, Australia
I saw something interesting recently from MediaInfo (s/w that gives details on codecs) that they no longer report bit depth for Dolby as it doesN’t have a bit depth :unsure: (Maybe it’s variable? I’ve got no idea what that’s about)
 

mlmtp9

New member
Joined
Jun 11, 2019
Messages
8
Location
north carolina
I have a question about working with the DVD-A format. This thread recommends using DVD Audio Extractor to create FLAC files. Everyone seems to agree that this is the way to go. My problem is that once I create the the files, I try to burn them using HD-Audio Solo Ultra 4.4, it informs me that there is a watermark in the file. Is there a recommended method to work around this problem? The files play fine on the computer.
 

boondocks

Senior Surround Collector
QQ Supporter
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
2,757
Location
State of Being
24 bit vs 16 bit doesn’t make a huge difference to file size. Disc space is cheap. Furthermore, there’s not many DD releases anyway so even smaller impact on disc requirements.
[/QUOTE
Well not in the formats we normally listen to for surround except DVDV/ADVD. I have a few TB's of surround DVD's that have AC3 5.1.(some also have DTS as well)
Strangely enough, there are even Blu Ray releases coming out still that have DD 5.1. For example I have a BOC blu ray release with DD 5.1.
Given a choice I would eschew AC3/DD and would prefer DTS, but if I were a true snob about it there are lots of surround offerings I would be missing, (like some live Tangerine Dream concerts e.g.) in DVD format.
To my ears, DTS has always had a better sound. As I age I'm sure someone could fool me now with an A/B between the two but extended listening usually bears out my DTS choice as superior sound. In my opinion.
 

polmac

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2015
Messages
40
Location
Glasgow, Scotland
Hi all.
I’ve just recently got into this ripping lark. As I’m fairly technically-challenged, it’s taken me a while to get round to it.
I posted a few weeks ago about sacd ripping and was kindly directed towards another site where I more or less sussed it out.
I’m now directing my attention to ripping my DVD-Audio, Dts and Blu-ray discs. I’ve started using DVDAE, which I’m slowly getting the hang of, but I have a few questions.
I’m assuming that the 30-day free trial starts when I do the initial download? The reason that I’m not too sure is because it didn’t ask for any details. Usually when I sign up for these things, it asks for at least some basic info (name, email address, create password etc). All it does is give me the option to register, at which point I click “register later”. I have never received any message that my trial is starting and will expire in 30 days, so I’m a bit confused.
Anyway, I’ve successfully used it for a few DVD-Audio discs, and even some specific tracks within DVD-video discs.
I was pleasantly surprised that a can transfer these FLAC files onto the same pen drive which holds my SACD .dsf files.
Unfortunately, I’ve just realised that my Mac seems to only have an internal DVD player, not a Blu-ray player. So, my question is (and I apologise if it’s a stupid one), do I need to buy an external Blu-ray drive to rip my Blu-rays (only music, not video)? Can I somehow connect my OPPO to my MAC to do this?
Or...I’ve seen mention of MakeMKV which is described as “a free DVD ripper that can rip a DVD or Blu-ray disc to an MKV file”, so I’m thinking it’s maybe software that will do the job, without the need for a hardware upgrade. Or perhaps that just wishful thinking on my part. Any advice would be appreciated!
 

DuncanS

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
7,244
Location
UK
Hi all.
I’ve just recently got into this ripping lark. As I’m fairly technically-challenged, it’s taken me a while to get round to it.
I posted a few weeks ago about sacd ripping and was kindly directed towards another site where I more or less sussed it out.
I’m now directing my attention to ripping my DVD-Audio, Dts and Blu-ray discs. I’ve started using DVDAE, which I’m slowly getting the hang of, but I have a few questions.
I’m assuming that the 30-day free trial starts when I do the initial download? The reason that I’m not too sure is because it didn’t ask for any details. Usually when I sign up for these things, it asks for at least some basic info (name, email address, create password etc). All it does is give me the option to register, at which point I click “register later”. I have never received any message that my trial is starting and will expire in 30 days, so I’m a bit confused.
Anyway, I’ve successfully used it for a few DVD-Audio discs, and even some specific tracks within DVD-video discs.
I was pleasantly surprised that a can transfer these FLAC files onto the same pen drive which holds my SACD .dsf files.
Unfortunately, I’ve just realised that my Mac seems to only have an internal DVD player, not a Blu-ray player. So, my question is (and I apologise if it’s a stupid one), do I need to buy an external Blu-ray drive to rip my Blu-rays (only music, not video)? Can I somehow connect my OPPO to my MAC to do this?
Or...I’ve seen mention of MakeMKV which is described as “a free DVD ripper that can rip a DVD or Blu-ray disc to an MKV file”, so I’m thinking it’s maybe software that will do the job, without the need for a hardware upgrade. Or perhaps that just wishful thinking on my part. Any advice would be appreciated!
I think you're right its 30 days from download I purchased it so I got a reg code. You'll need an External Blu-Ray connected to your Mac, I have a PC so I assume MakeMKV functions on a Mac. HamerJAU's Music Media Helper is great for extracting the audio from MakeMKV, but again I'm not sure if it'll run on a Mac.
 

LuvMyQuad

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
Aug 12, 2010
Messages
4,410
Location
Western NY
Hi all.
I’ve just recently got into this ripping lark. As I’m fairly technically-challenged, it’s taken me a while to get round to it.
I posted a few weeks ago about sacd ripping and was kindly directed towards another site where I more or less sussed it out.
I’m now directing my attention to ripping my DVD-Audio, Dts and Blu-ray discs. I’ve started using DVDAE, which I’m slowly getting the hang of, but I have a few questions.
I’m assuming that the 30-day free trial starts when I do the initial download? The reason that I’m not too sure is because it didn’t ask for any details. Usually when I sign up for these things, it asks for at least some basic info (name, email address, create password etc). All it does is give me the option to register, at which point I click “register later”. I have never received any message that my trial is starting and will expire in 30 days, so I’m a bit confused.
Anyway, I’ve successfully used it for a few DVD-Audio discs, and even some specific tracks within DVD-video discs.
I was pleasantly surprised that a can transfer these FLAC files onto the same pen drive which holds my SACD .dsf files.
Unfortunately, I’ve just realised that my Mac seems to only have an internal DVD player, not a Blu-ray player. So, my question is (and I apologise if it’s a stupid one), do I need to buy an external Blu-ray drive to rip my Blu-rays (only music, not video)? Can I somehow connect my OPPO to my MAC to do this?
Or...I’ve seen mention of MakeMKV which is described as “a free DVD ripper that can rip a DVD or Blu-ray disc to an MKV file”, so I’m thinking it’s maybe software that will do the job, without the need for a hardware upgrade. Or perhaps that just wishful thinking on my part. Any advice would be appreciated!

Answers:

The DVDAE software will indeed stop working at the 30 day mark. After that you will need to purchase a license to continue using it. Its worth the price if you still have a lot of MLP (DVD Audio) based rips to do.

While DVDAE is capable of ripping Blueray it wont process copy protected disks. That excludes virtually all commercial releases, be they music only or video.

Regardless of what software you use, you will need a computer based Blueray drive to access a blue ray disc. There is no way to connect your Oppo for this purpose that I know of. Using MakeMKV will not eliminate the need for a Blueray drive.

Once you make an MKV file from a music disk you will likely want to extract the tracks as FLAC. There is a free program called Audiomuxer that will do that. Leave the extractions as MKV for videos. You may loose all menu functionality with an MKV copy.

MakeMKV is only free for a 1-2 month period. Then the beta registration key rolls over. At that boint you can either get a new beta key and continue to use the free version (assuming its available... sometimes there are lags) or purchase a license outright.
 

minimumtumbleweed

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
273
Location
Canada
I think you're right its 30 days from download I purchased it so I got a reg code. You'll need an External Blu-Ray connected to your Mac, I have a PC so I assume MakeMKV functions on a Mac. HamerJAU's Music Media Helper is great for extracting the audio from MakeMKV, but again I'm not sure if it'll run on a Mac.

You can also use MakeMKV to create a backup of the Blu-Ray which is not copy-protected (tell it to remove copy protection). Then you can just load the folder in DVD-Audio Extractor no problem.
 

vindaloo

Active Member
QQ Supporter
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
90
Location
Paris, France & Sacramento, California
Anyway, I’ve successfully used it for a few DVD-Audio discs, and even some specific tracks within DVD-video discs.
I was pleasantly surprised that a can transfer these FLAC files onto the same pen drive which holds my SACD .dsf files.
Unfortunately, I’ve just realised that my Mac seems to only have an internal DVD player, not a Blu-ray player. So, my question is (and I apologise if it’s a stupid one), do I need to buy an external Blu-ray drive to rip my Blu-rays (only music, not video)? Can I somehow connect my OPPO to my MAC to do this?
Or...I’ve seen mention of MakeMKV which is described as “a free DVD ripper that can rip a DVD or Blu-ray disc to an MKV file”, so I’m thinking it’s maybe software that will do the job, without the need for a hardware upgrade. Or perhaps that just wishful thinking on my part. Any advice would be appreciated!

I've been very happy using a portable Pioneer BDR-XD05S with my Mac laptop. My mac is still running MacOS 10.14 (Mojave) at the moment. I use the BDR-XD05S to read Blu-ray discs with MakeMKV and all other MCH discs (except SACD) with DVDAE. I run the decrypted Blu-ray backup output from MakeMKV through DVDAE to generate the FLAC files from Blu-ray. My workflow from SACD DSD to FLAC is different: I rip from a Pioneer BDP-80FD over my home network to the same Mac laptop using sacd_extract (I choose to run this app from the command line) to extract the SACD into an ISO file, then sacd_extract (again) to extract DFF flies from the ISO, and then Pro Audio Converter (on the same Mac laptop) to get from DFF to 88.2kHz FLAC. In my workflow I choose to archive the ISO in case I want to use it again later to extract stereo. Two other related apps on my Mac are Metadatics and sox (command line). I use sox for special surgical work, like to stitch multiple FLAC files together into one, or pad or trim a FLAC file.
 

polmac

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2015
Messages
40
Location
Glasgow, Scotland
Ok, thanks for the responses folks. So I definitely need a Blu-ray drive. I’ve looked at some of the recommended ones which are mentioned in this and other threads, but all seem to be currently unavailable. Also, it seems that with some, additional software needs to be purchased for them to work. Can anyone point me in the direction of a simple -to-use drive which is not too expensive? I’m in Spain so preferably looking to order from Europe...
 

HomerJAU

Moderator: MCH Media Players
Staff member
Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Messages
5,047
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Can anyone point me in the direction of a simple -to-use drive which is not too expensive?

I can’t go wrong with these drives. They‘ve been around for a long time now so it’s mature tech. Find something in your price range and go for it. They’re all very similar spec wise, if you are worried about quality stick with a name brand you recognise. If your PC has USB 3.0 ports buy a USB 3.0 BD drive, but probably minimal performance improvement since is mostly about disc reading speed limitations.
 
Top