ed saunders cd4 cart

[Cai Campbell]

Quadfather, we are essentially saying the same thing but from different vantage points. Tracking error is exacerbated by the CD-4 system in the innermost grooves and stylus shape contributes to tracking ability. But lets not discount the other (albeit lesser) variables.

 

[Quadradude]

Ok QF and Cai,
I've got a Technics SL-1200MkII table, the Ed Saunders cart, and a Marantz CD-400B as I mentionned above.
Switching to the SL-1200MkII made all the difference in the world (knock on wood) as now I have one beautifully separated and totally listenable "side" so far BUT...
I had only listened to two CD-4 LP's since switching tables from the Sony Linear that had been horrible at best with either constant distortion or no separation for the most part, and now with the switch to the Technics table I thought I was basically satisfied with my CD-4 setup and Ed's cart, and had convinced myself that the very rare distortions I though I might be hearing in the right channel on some songs were easily ignored and acceptable, UNTIL I dropped "The Best of Bread" on the table last night only to find that the vocals in the right channels distort anywhere from frequently to constantly and the guitars are almost as bad, but the lefts are fine!
I double checked the cart alignment and I don't see any issues. I rechecked the tracking weight, anti-skate settings, and even tonearm height, and tweaked them for a while with no change that I could tell. I swapped the left/right cable connections from the table to the decoder and the problem totally moved to the left side so it's not the decoder. I completely replaced the headshell wiring with thicker wires first, listened again but found no change, then swapped channels at the headshell to eliminate the tonearm and table wiring and the problem definitely follows the output of the cart itself, eliminating the table wiring and decoder as issues.

So since I can't swap the record grooves to rule out the cartridge what's the next step? Do I still have an alignment or tracking issue that I need to (or can) correct or is the Technics table also not up to the task of CD-4 or do I simply suspect the cart at this point?

I did notice that if I back the separation knobs all the way down (well past the null, I know), on any CD-4 record I play I get low levels of course but still clean lefts and random regular distortion on the rights. It even happens with the "alignment test tones" on the Akai CD-4 test record that came with my receiver. I used to get the distortion a lot worse and on both channels at that separation setting with the Sony Linear table I was originally trying to use, which made finding the null difficult, and I could still set the two knobs well enough to get minimal but apparent front/rear separation with what I considered to be at least listenable audio out of the rights but had major left channels problems like this on the linear table constantly. Now I'm wondering if the linear table's wiring wasn't reversed and It's still the same problem, albeit less of it with the better table?

Note that I have 2 copies of this LP, one near flawless and the other pretty clean, and they both do the same exact thing.

I thought about the 400B's auto-carrier not liking some albums but I don't know which ones they are plus it just seems very strange to me that the right channel's separation adjustment for the null is so drastically different than the left, especially since the adjustmets swap exactly when I swap channels at the decoder's input or at the headshell.

I'm so pleased with and excited by what I hear now and yet so disappointed that it's still not behaving like it's supposed to.

Thanks for all your patience and assistance!
I'm really looking forward to finally getting it right.

 

[The Quadfather]

Hey Quadradude:
There are several possibilities, most serious. If you are absolutely sure the wiring and the demod are OK, and you have swapped channel connections on the cart itself and the problem switched sides, then look at your cart, and stylus. a shorted loop in the winding of the cart could mess it up, and it would be hard to detect with an ohmmeter. A bent cantilever or cocked stylus could cause this. A dragging pivot bearing could do it also. When balanced to zero grams, it should float up and down and side to side. Stiff motion is intolerable. (remove the stylus for this test) A bent tonearm or if it were twisted in it's mount could cause problems. Make sure the stylus is perpendicular to the record. If all else fails change the cart. (a good time to justify the AT440ML) I assume that you have done a standard cart alignment, if not, do that. Also, make sure the headshell connector is clean. (though the problem would not move when switching channels on the cart if that were the case) Good luck!

The Quadfather

The Quadfather

 

[Quadradude]

If the stylus ends up being at fault I presume I'd have to get a replacement for it from Ed Saunders since I don't know the AT cart model number?

Well the Technics' tonearm floats smoothly and effortlessly in whatever directions you choose to nudge it when the weight's zero'd out, no stiff, binding, or crunchy pivots at all. I can gently blow on it and away it goes and it teeters nicely as well, yet there's no free-play or slop in either axis at all.
The arm itself shows no signs of damage that I see and nothing about it is loose or moves that shouldn't so I don't think it's been twisted.

I've also tried a generic headshell and the original Technics one, which made no difference at all.
The P-Mount adapter (which came with the cartridge) is flush with the headshell, the cartridge is a pretty tight fit into the adapter and is fully seated into it with the set screw installed, the headshell is properly seated into the tonearm with no rotational movement even when the locking collar is still loose, the locking collar has been fully tightened, and the problem does move to the other channel if the headshell wiring is swapped which says that the tonearm/headshell contacts are shiny, clean and working fine.
With the free printable protractor I did work with the cartridge mounting until the stylus landed in the S circle at both places without moving the platter or the protractor, which took sliding the cartridge in and out on the headshell several times, then I had to ever so slightly rotate it towards the spindle to make the cartridge be parallel to the lines on the protractor at both points while landing on the S circle, which bothered me a little so I set it parallel to the headshell and nothing changed. That's how slight the inward rotation is.

I can't really see the stylus all that well when it's on the record but it doesn't look any different than it did when I opened the package from Ed and it looks fine on the protractor, which is much easier to see it against since it's white instead of black.

I guess next paycheck I'll order a AT440MLa and hope it clears everything up.

I just found out that someone makes a standard mount adapter for my Dual CS508 and CS627Q tables so I was almost tempted to try the Ed Saunders cart on either of them but the adapter costs almost as much as the AT440MLa so it seems foolish to go that route, plus those two tables are of the ULM straight arm design and I'm not sure but I thought I read that a straight arm non-linear table is not a good choice for CD-4?

Again, thanks for your time!

Thomas

 

[Quadradude]

The two P-Mount Sony Linear turntables I was trying to use whose only adjustment was tracking weight also exhibited random difficulty retaining carrier lock like you're describing as they got further into the record on several of my Quadradiscs. Now on those very same albums with the same cartridge and the same decoder but using the Technics SL-1200MkII table instead, that problem, along with a lot of the distortion issues, "has left the building..." Sorry, I just couldn't resist...

I'm astonished at the strong, stable performance of the left channels now from the Ed Saunders cart, I'm just concerned and frustrated by the lingering problems that still plague the right channels for me, albeit mildly compared to what I was getting before I switched over to the SL-1200MkII table but it's still very annoying like fingernails on a blackboard at times nonetheless...

Like Cai and Quadfather said, if you haven't done it yet, check your cart alignment closely with the protractor. I'll bet a lot of issues including some you may not even have noticed will clear up nicely with that.

When using the protractor, as I understand it, you're not supposed to move the platter when going from one of the two points to the other and the stylus should still land on the mark in both places if you've got it in the right place on the headshell, correct? If I move the cartridge towards the front or back of the headshell it effects whether that's the case or not. Finding the spot on the headshell that let the stylus hit both points without moving the platter was pretty easy but what I could not get to happen was getting the stylus to hit both marks with the cartridge lined up parallel from front to back with the headshell AND with the alignment marks on the protractor. If it looked straight with the headshell it was inevitably not straight with the protractor lines at one point or the other and if I adjusted it front to back in the headshell to make it match both the protractor lines and the headshell at the same time, then the stylus would no longer hit both marks without rotating the platter a little.

Am I understanding the concept of protractor use correctly and does it sound like I'm doing it right or missing something somewhere?

Maybe Cai or Quadfather could download and print the free protractor and set it on their turntable see if their alignments, which are already correct, match up with the printed protractor? I'd be really curious to know if it's right or not so I'd know if my results are skewed or accurate.

I'm running an Ed Saunders setup with a Technics SH-400 demod, Pioneer PL-500 turntable - - and on 2 Quadradiscs (Elvis: Aloha & CCR: Gold) that the last song, or innermost track seems to lose carrier. Not all of my Quadradiscs do it, but these in particular do. Elvis is the worst offender as any time there is a high frequency sound, such as a high guitar note or horn blast, I lose the Radar light! CCR it just flickers and dies on Suzie Q.

I normally attested these symptoms to bad pressings but now I'm starting to wonder....