New Member: Advice on adding LP and Quad capability to an existing 5.1 system

[mwhealton]

Hi all:
I am new here and new to quad, but have an existing (all digital input so far) 2channel + multichannel system. I tend to listen to 2 channel sources in pure stereo pass-thru mode.
My goal is to add both LP and quad capability to the system. I think my focus initially is on the Columbia material and therefore SQ matrix format playback, but would like to find equipment that does not limit my options in the discrete quad LP formats. (That last statement may not be well-formed, since I am new to this world). I am generally looking at new equipment, not vintage pieces unless they are really convincing and necessary.

The existing system has some dated equipment as you can see:
Disc player: Oppo UDP-205
Pre/pro: Lexicon MC-12B with Room EQ V5.25 (running all outputs balanced except subwoofer )
Amplification: Classe CA-2300 (main L/R), Lexicon MX-7 (all other channels except subwoofer)
Speakers: Mains L/R B&W Nautilus 801 c. 1999, Center: B&W Nautilus HTM-1 c. 1999, Sides: B&W in-ceiling c. 2012, Rears: B&W in-wall c. 2012, sub: Vandersteen.

Here are the pieces I think I need to add:
1: Turntable + cartridge that allows both matrix and discrete playback. rough budget - up to around 1,500 USD
2: Phono stage preamp - something appropriate for driving the decoder - < 500 USD
3: Matrix decoder/synth: This one will be the Sonic Master v2, I think. (Discrete format demodulation is something for a later time..)
4: Multichannel switcher for analog 5.1 and quad sources - Needed since the Lex MC-12B does not have HDMI inputs and so I must run the Surround Master and Oppo into one set of analog inputs. This could eventually change if I swap out the Lex, but not planning on it at this time. Note: The Zektors seem to be unavailable, so hoping that there is a reasonable equivalent. < 200 USD (if that makes sense)

Would love to hear people's thoughts and experiences on any part of this! Please point me to relevant threads and/or posts, as I get used to searching and posting around here. No need to rehash still relevant discussions.

Thanks!
ETA: specs on the MC-12B type and version

 

[proufo]

This could eventually change if I swap out the Lex, but not planning on it at this time.

This could tempt you:

Lexicon MC-12HDB

 

[proufo]

I would stay away of CD-4 demodulating. Too much of a hassle. It could be fun (or very, very frustrating) if you already have CD-4 albums, but if you don't save yourself a lot of aggravation.

It is likely that someone already made conversions of most of the CD-4 records you want to listen to.

Excellent gear, BTW.

 

[proufo]

Look (ebay) at a Sonance AL2/S Automatic Line-Level Selector. You can program one (the source-activated) of the 12V control output of the Lx to switch the Sonance and have both the 2-ch phono signal and the SM mch signal in an elegant way.

 

[Circular Vibes]

Hi and welcome to quad music! You can find second hand Zektor units on ePay for reasonable amounts on a frequent enough basis. I do not have a lot of experience with current equipment but a look at Audio Technica microline cartridges would be a good start. I believe the current series of AT-VM95 cartridges have two microline tip versions and a Shibata tip as well and are similar to the previous AT440mlb in performance and price. These would make you CD4 capable in the future and give good sound now with stereo and matrix quad discs. Most decent turntables today, such as the Project line should work well for you in your price range. One caveat for you is the Surround Master, or any decoder, will need the use of a tape loop and I do not know if you have it. If you had gone for CD4 from the start, you would also have a magnetic cartridge preamp as well. That would put you in the vintage category only though and might need some restoration to work adequately.

 

[mwhealton]

Thank you all for your replies so far.
Proufo: I hesitate to buy into another Lex, even if it has room eq and HDMI inputs. It seems better to go with a newer design pre/pro than invest in already unsupported pieces.
Circular Vibes: I don't think I understand why a tape loop is needed. Was planning on hooking up turntable > phono preamp > Surround Mast > the line-level Lexicon 5.1 analog input set. Am I missing something?

Hoping to look at some turntables and cartridges this week - I'll be dealing with local dealers since I am not prepared for setting these up correctly on my own.

 

[Circular Vibes]

How will you play other two channel sources through the Surround Master without a tape loop? Where will you plug in your Oppo if you have the Surround Master on your multichannel input? It sounds like you will be limiting yourself with the Surround Master and restricting yourself from future possible CD4 playback. I was laying out your options as I see them based on what you first posted you might want to do. If you do it your way, you can not use CDs or radio or other media through the Surround Master without a tape loop. Unless I have missed something?

 

[proufo]

How will you play other two channel sources through the Surround Master without a tape loop? Where will you plug in your Oppo if you have the Surround Master on your multichannel input? It sounds like you will be limiting yourself with the Surround Master and restricting yourself from future possible CD4 playback. I was laying out your options as I see them based on what you first posted you might want to do. If you do it your way, you can not use CDs or radio or other media through the Surround Master without a tape loop. Unless I have missed something?

The easy (but sooo inelegant) way is to split the phono preamp output and send one leg to a Zektor (4-in 1-out, up to 5.1) (so you will can listen to other stereo sources through the SM if that's what you want) and then to a 2-ch input, and the second leg to the SM and from there to a second Zektor that will feed the 5.1 input of the Lx12. This second Zektor would take also the output of a CD-4 decoder and of a universal disc player with 5.1 analog-outs (or up to three disc players with 5.1 analog outs).

Gets way more inelegant if you would have a single turntable for stereo/matrix records and CD-4, but is doable.

For listening to upmixed/enhanced stereo sources, I would try first using the capabilities (Logic 7, dts Neo, others) of the Lx12 instead of playing them through the SM. To mention one reason, you can use the 2-ch inputs of the Lx.

 

[mwhealton]

Thank you Circular Vibes and proufo.

Right now I will only be using one turntable+phono stage preamp. No CD-4 modulation planned at this point.

For sources other than that, as proufo says, I think I'll just keep the various modes of the Lexicon in play. Those work well for 2channel passthough stereo listening or synthesized 5.1 or 7.1 from redbook cds using the 5.1 input set. The Lex has lots of mapping and default mode capabilities that should give me the control I need - I may need to map another front panel channel to the 5.1 input set though (or two) for the Surround Master.

On the other hand, the Lex does have a full set of tape output channels and a fully routable record zone. So it would be possible to route the stereo output of the phono preamp into the phono channel on the Lex, then to the Surround Master through the record outs, then back in through the (Zektor switched between Oppo and Surround Master) 5.1 input set. That would let me have the multichannel synthesis both ways. The configuration would be a bit tedious I think though. Unless there is a compelling reason. Has anyone compared Logic 7 modes to the Surround Master synthesis?

 

[mwhealton]

By the way - heading out to pick the turntable and cartridge today from a local dealer who can do the setup, alignment, calibration, and test. Those things I am not planning to do myself!

 

[proufo]

So it would be possible to route the stereo output of the phono preamp into the phono channel on the Lex, then to the Surround Master through the record outs, then back in through the (Zektor switched between Oppo and Surround Master) 5.1 input set. That would let me have the multichannel synthesis both ways.

Maybe not through the record outputs, but through the zone 2 or 3 outputs and back to the main 5.1 input (via Zektor or not).

INTERESTING!

 

[MrSmithers]

By the way - heading out to pick the turntable and cartridge today from a local dealer who can do the setup, alignment, calibration, and test. Those things I am not planning to do myself!

Cool, what options did you go for? I'm not really that clued up about this at all, but from trying to gather information myself for a CD-4 capable cartridge I think it has to have 2 things...

A Shibata tip stylus?
A frequency response above 30-40 kHz?

There are Grado cartridges commercially available that match the frequency response, but I'm not sure if they have a Shibata tip stylus?

There are Audio Technica cartridges available that have a Shibata tip stylus, but don't seem to go above the necessary frequency response? The only one I could find that seems to fully qualify is the Audio Technica AT-OC9XSH. It says dual moving coil, however I am unaware if having a MM or a MC cartridge makes a difference to CD-4 capability?

I am also unaware if having a belt drive or direct drive turntable makes a difference for CD-4?

I'd imagine it's all going to sound pretty sweet when hooked up to your existing set up... B&W Nautilus - wow!

 

[fredblue]

Cool, what options did you go for? I'm not really that clued up about this at all, but from trying to gather information myself for a CD-4 capable cartridge I think it has to have 2 things...

A Shibata tip stylus?
A frequency response above 30-40 kHz?

There are Grado cartridges commercially available that match the frequency response, but I'm not sure if they have a Shibata tip stylus?

There are Audio Technica cartridges available that have a Shibata tip stylus, but don't seem to go above the necessary frequency response? The only one I could find that seems to fully qualify is the Audio Technica AT-OC9XSH. It says dual moving coil, however I am unaware if having a MM or a MC cartridge makes a difference to CD-4 capability?

I am also unaware if having a belt drive or direct drive turntable makes a difference for CD-4?

I'd imagine it's all going to sound pretty sweet when hooked up to your existing set up... B&W Nautilus - wow!

fwiw the most consistent cart i've tried for CD-4 has been an AT440MLb, a bit of a forum favourite round these parts and i can see why. it isn't a Shibata and its' rated specs would suggest it can't do CD-4 but it is a MicroLine which is an exotic enough stylus profile i guess and it may be that the published specs were on the conservative side, i don't know?

what i will say is that i've found the most important things beyond the obvious of finding a cart with the right stylus etc are all aspects of turntable adjustment, especially careful stylus alignment, azimuth in particular has a dramatic effect with CD-4, also VTF, VTA and anti-skate need adjusting.

as for the turntable itself, i have no idea if belt driven or direct drive is preferable but it should have low capacitance wiring between the 'table and the demodulator.

disc cleanliness & condition and not pushing a demodulator beyond what it and the rest of the equipment are capable of is also important.

also each type of demodulator i've fiddle-farted around with has its' own qualities and its' own sort of sound, the ubiquitous JVC 4DD-5's do the job but when i went to the later released Grundig (with the CD4-392 so-called "holy grail" chip) and Marantz CD-400B unit there was a learning curve all over again each time because they did things differently to the JVC (with no 30kHz carrier level adjustment control!) and they both sound different, to one another and to the JVC.

either way, whatever gear you use, when you drop the needle on one of the little 7" 45rpm CD-4 adjustment discs and you get a clear distortion-free "beeeep" with the 30kHz tone you know you're on the way and can start playing with the separation controls turning them up til you reach a happy separation/distortion compromise.

the CD-4 systems a bit of a faff and not a doddle to do satisfactorily on the cheap (what can i say i'm cheap!) but when it works its great and when it's really working it's amazing!

 

[Circular Vibes]

MrSmithers, A Shibata tip is the minimum you need for CD4. I have been using Microline tips to my success. The Audio Technica cartridges seem to be under rated. The AT-VM95 series cartridges have 2 microline and one Shibata tip available and work from what little I have heard. The now discontinued AT440mlb works well, which is on my system now. The new series equivalent to mine is reported to work as well. The Grado cartridges have the frequency response but they have only elliptical tips. With AT's moving coil cartridges, they may work but you will need an appropriate step up transformer like the old Ortofon one for CD4, MCA 75 methinks. The only drawbacks of any drive system for CD4 incompatibility would be motor noise and electrical radiation. Both should be of no consequence today. Worry more about tonearm cable capacitance. I have quite a few demodulators and still use the ones built into my Sansui and JVC receiveers unless I need to use my Strain Gauge cartridge. I am told the JVC 4DD5 has a decent phono stage but my 2 have not worked out for me and one was new in box. A set up record is a must for those who need experience in set up. Beware that all set up records are not the same and for some strange reason most of mine are noisy. I went through a lot of money, equipment and patience to get CD4 working for me. The demodulators I have in my storage may work fine. I just gave up when my receivers worked well. My problem was tonearm wiring which was the last thing I sorted out. I think using old CD4 cartridges with new styli is a crap shoot. I went through 4 JVC cartridges and none worked as expected. Uh Oh, I've gone tl;dr...

 

[MrSmithers]

Wow that's all great info, cheers! I guess the word 'Compatible' from CD-4 needs to be taken with a pinch of salt?!

It may be a bit over my technical head for the moment... I think I'll pause and just start with the basics and work my way up... Like @mwhealton I'm hoping to integrate a LP quad system (I don't have the turntable yet) and from that point you kind of think well it would be cool if that could include CD-4... I guess if I can get a AT440MLB/ VM540ML/ AT-VM95 cartridge included then it would work further down the line, should it come to it...

 

[fredblue]

Wow that's all great info, cheers! I guess the word 'Compatible' from CD-4 needs to be taken with a pinch of salt?!

It may be a bit over my technical head for the moment... I think I'll pause and just start with the basics and work my way up... Like @mwhealton I'm hoping to integrate a LP quad system (I don't have the turntable yet) and from that point you kind of think well it would be cool if that could include CD-4... I guess if I can get a AT440MLB/ VM540ML/ AT-VM95 cartridge included then it would work further down the line, should it come to it...

honestly its not that much of a techno fiasco! it just takes a bit of time, care, patience.. all that stuff i don't have much of! (seriously if i can do it anyone can!)

 

[J. PUPSTER]

fwiw the most consistent cart i've tried for CD-4 has been an AT440MLb, a bit of a forum favourite round these parts and i can see why. it isn't a Shibata and its' rated specs would suggest it can't do CD-4 but it is a MicroLine which is an exotic enough stylus profile i guess and it may be that the published specs were on the conservative side, i don't know?

what i will say is that i've found the most important things beyond the obvious of finding a cart with the right stylus etc are all aspects of turntable adjustment, especially careful stylus alignment, azimuth in particular has a dramatic effect with CD-4, also VTF, VTA and anti-skate need adjusting.

as for the turntable itself, i have no idea if belt driven or direct drive is preferable but it should have low capacitance wiring between the 'table and the demodulator.

disc cleanliness & condition and not pushing a demodulator beyond what it and the rest of the equipment are capable of is also important.

also each type of demodulator i've fiddle-farted around with has its' own qualities and its' own sort of sound, the ubiquitous JVC 4DD-5's do the job but when i went to the later released Grundig (with the CD4-392 so-called "holy grail" chip) and Marantz CD-400B unit there was a learning curve all over again each time because they did things differently to the JVC (with no 30kHz carrier level adjustment control!) and they both sound different, to one another and to the JVC.

either way, whatever gear you use, when you drop the needle on one of the little 7" 45rpm CD-4 adjustment discs and you get a clear distortion-free "beeeep" with the 30kHz tone you know you're on the way and can start playing with the separation controls turning them up til you reach a happy separation/distortion compromise.

the CD-4 systems a bit of a faff and not a doddle to do satisfactorily on the cheap (what can i say i'm cheap!) but when it works its great and when it's really working it's amazing!

Freddie you stated - "as for the turntable itself, i have no idea if belt driven or direct drive is preferable but it should have low capacitance wiring between the 'table and the demodulator."; any additional info on what specs and wiring that should be?
Hey, you've been egging me on to go CD-4 with the Sansui, so I'm tryin' to learn here!

 

[MrSmithers]

honestly its not that much of a techno fiasco! it just takes a bit of time, care, patience.. all that stuff i don't have much of! (seriously if i can do it anyone can!)

Techno Techno Techno Techno!!! Ah that's good... Hopefully one day I won't be 2 Unlimited in setting it up!

 

[MrSmithers]

Freddie you stated - "as for the turntable itself, i have no idea if belt driven or direct drive is preferable but it should have low capacitance wiring between the 'table and the demodulator."; any additional info on what specs and wiring that should be?
Hey, you've been egging me on to go CD-4 with the Sansui, so I'm tryin' to learn here!

I read somewhere that Mogami wires might be good for that Pups? I don't know if that includes all the wiring though? I think if I keep reading up on this stuff it will eventually sink in...

 

[fredblue]

Freddie you stated - "as for the turntable itself, i have no idea if belt driven or direct drive is preferable but it should have low capacitance wiring between the 'table and the demodulator."; any additional info on what specs and wiring that should be?
Hey, you've been egging me on to go CD-4 with the Sansui, so I'm tryin' to learn here!

i think it needs to be the 'thicker' type of rca interconnect cable? the old stock SL1200's (like mine) used to come with it hardwired, i'm sure one of the CD-4 experts will know!