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HomerJAU

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do you know how that's accomplished Garry
No. But I’d assume there’s an JRiver menu option to load a VST plug-in. if it supports VST it may also support ‘chaining’ so maybe you could load Izotope Standard Imager and Penteo at same time. Stereo input to Imager (expand stereo image) feed to Penteo, upmix to quad or 5.1 etc.

This is my preferred method in Reaper but Reaper is a pain to configure to actually hear the upmix in real-time. So I usually listen post upmix after doing the Imager/Penteo processing at about 20 times real time.
 

HomerJAU

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Prospective Penteo buyers: Don‘t forget you need an iLok USB key to run Penteo, even their free trial needs an iLok. Amazon sells them for around $35 I think.
 

bracelis

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I've added the Penteo VST3 plugin in JRiver and it's simple:
(1) In the JRiver "DSP Studio", click on "Manage Plug-ins..", and locate and add the plugin (on my Windows PC, it's in "C:\Program Files\Common Files\VST3\Penteo 16 Pro.vst3"). And you should see the plugin in JRiver.
(2) In the Penteo plugin setup, I selected output = 4.0
(3) JRiver has its own upmixing / downmixing function -- this should be disabled since we want to use the Penteo upmixing (screenshot #2).

I didn't need to configure anything else -- the 4 output channels of the the Penteo plugin are sent correctly to the 4 speakers.

However, I don't use Penteo this way because of a limitation in the JRiver plugins -- plugins seem to be applied only on the stereo channels.
In this example (in the screenshot), I also added an Ozone plugin after the Penteo plugin, but it's only applied on the front left/right channels.
Furthermore, if a plugin has a delay, then the front channels will be out of sync with the rear channels.

I could rearrange the plugins and put the Ozone plugin (which will be applied to the original stereo source) before the Penteo plugin -- that should resolve this issue. But there may be cases when I want to apply a plugin to a multi channel source (SACD, BluRay rip, etc), so that's still an issue.

JRiver_Penteo.png


(Screenshot #2 - disable JRiver's built-in upmixing function)
JRiver_NoUpmixing.png


I do not know if there is a way to apply a plugin to specific channels (if the source has more than 2 channels) in JRiver -- I did not bother finding an answer, because I already have a different solution.
Instead of running the plugins in JRiver, I just run it in Reaper, and send the JRiver audio to Reaper -- and this is still in realtime.
JRiver ----> Reaper (Penteo and other plugins) ---> output to speakers

And this also works with other audio sources such as streaming apps, also in real time:
Tidal / Amazon Music,etc. ------> Reaper ---> output to speakers

I never bother saving the Penteo output to a file / FLAC -- I only use Penteo in realtime.

I've previously posted about this in another Penteo thread:

And I mentioned in that thread that I actually send the original (unprocessed) front/left channels to the speakers.
I only use the rear channels output of the Penteo plugin and send that to the rear speakers -- this way I maintain the full range / front stereo stage -- I won't be able to accomplish this if I use Penteo within JRiver.


Windows Scaling

Another issue with VST plugins in JRiver is that the plugin windows are not scaled if you have a high resolution monitor.
In the screenshot below, the plugin is scaled properly in Reaper, but in JRiver the plugin window appears too small.

Otherwise the plugins (I've tested Penteo and Ozone) work fine and they're stable and don't crash in JRiver.
And interacting with the plugin windows/interface is normal/smooth.

Reaper_JRiver_plugins.png
 
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HomerJAU

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Can JRiver apply Imager to the stereo input to Penteo?

Thats what I do in Reaper. Add Imager first, then Penteo to Reaper and Reaper routes the Imager output to Penteo. Penteo then uses the expanded stereo image to increase the upmixed surround effect.
 

bracelis

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As already mentioned, I can add a plugin/effect to a stereo audio, before the Penteo plugin in JRiver.
As shown in the screenshot, they are "Processed in the order listed (and you can drag to reorder)", so that the output (stereo) of the that plugin becomes the input of the Penteo plugin.
If you're asking specifically about the Ozone 9 Imager (VST3) plugin, I also mentioned that I have tested both Ozone and Penteo.

I only mentioned that I could not add a plugin/effect on a multi-channel audio, for example after the Penteo plugin with 4 channels output or on an original multi-channel audio (SACD, blu ray, FLAC, etc) -- the effect is only applied to the left/right channels. But that limitation is not relevant in this case.
JRiverOzonePenteo.png
 

HomerJAU

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Thanks for the confirmation. I think I misunderstood your comment on Imager.

I successfully downloaded a JRiver trial and ran Imager and Penteo concurrently. Penteo has a bug in its 4.1 output layout and JRiver doesn’t even have a 4.1 output option anyway. But 5.1 worked fine. (I prefer 4.1 mixes).

After playing around with 3 different stereo tracks from 3 artists I reackon JRiver listening doesn’t give any advantages over just looking a the Penteo and Imager UIs as far as getting the mix to sound right. The UIs are easier to use.

I’ll play a little more with JRiver as I have a 30 day trial. I plan to experiment with Ozone’s other tools for equalisation etc. I’m sure hearing these tweaks in surround will be useful.
 

beerking

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Many thanks for the heads up Garry...👍
I think it's time, to finally pull the trigger!!

That's approx £260 for us Brits, plus the ilok usb cost. Which is £43.99 on Amazon .
 

Scott M4

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Thanks for the confirmation. I think I misunderstood your comment on Imager.

I successfully downloaded a JRiver trial and ran Imager and Penteo concurrently. Penteo has a bug in its 4.1 output layout and JRiver doesn’t even have a 4.1 output option anyway. But 5.1 worked fine. (I prefer 4.1 mixes).
I prefer quad mixes too. Am I out of luck with Penteo 16?
 

HomerJAU

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Penteo does quad (4.0) ok but with 4.1 it has the wrong channel order. LFE is in centre, Rear Left in LFE and Right Rear in Left Rear.

if you create files you can fix the channel order (Music Media Helper has a tool to do it) but if you listen live then the channels are mixed up by default. You could fix in Reaper by re-mapping the output channels but that’s a pain.

I reported it to Penteo support but the tech insisted it was correct (wrong)
 
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Scott M4

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Penteo does quad (4.0) ok but with 4.1 it has the wrong channel order. LFE is in centre, Rear Left in LFE and Right Rear in Left Rear.

if you create files you can fix the channel order (Music Media Helper has a tool to do it) but if you listen live then the channels are mixed up by default. You could fix in Reaper by re-mapping the output channels but that’s a pain.

I reported it to Penteo support but the tech insisted it was correct (wrong)
Thanks for the clarity. 4.0 is fine for me.
 

bracelis

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Penteo does quad (4.0) ok but with 4.1 it has the wrong channel order. LFE is in centre, Rear Left in LFE and Right Rear in Left Rear.
...
I reported it to Penteo support but the tech insisted it was correct (wrong)
You're probably thinking of the "correct" order for 5.1 / 7.1, which has a center channel.
But that will not apply to 4.0/4.1 which has no center channel.

Penteo ouptuts 4.1 to channels 1-5 (which is exactly what I see in the USB audio interface that I use, as shown in the screenshot below).
L -> Channel 1
R -> Channel 2
Lsurround -> Channel 3
Rsurround -> Channel 4
LFE -> Channel 5

I don't think you can say that Penteo is wrong here.
You can't tell Penteo to add an empty center channel, and reorder the channels so that it follows the "correct" 5.1/7.1 order.

Penteo_Output.png





JRiver has a default channel order, based on a 5.1 / 7.1 configuration which has a center channel, as shown in the screenshot below.
Since Penteo's 4.1 output doesn't have a center channel, then it won't match JRiver's default channel order. But that can be fixed -- JRiver allows you to reorder the channels.

If you want to use Penteo's 4.1 output, you can select Channels = "5.1", "7.1", "10", etc (it doesn't matter, as long as it has at least 5 channels) in the "Output Format". For example, if you select 5.1, then the first 5 channels will populated with Penteo's 4.1 output, and the 6th channel will be empty.

If the Penteo's output channels are not being routed properly to JRiver's default channels order, you can move the built-in "Parametric Equalizer" plugin after the Penteo plugin and add the "Order channels" filter.
JRiver_Order_Channels1.png


For example I can reorder them so that Penteo's 5 channels (4.1) output are routed to the corresponding 5 channels in JRiver as shown in the screenshot.
And the other channels are not used.
Your setup might be different, if the "Surround left/right" do not work, then you can use the "Rear Left/right" instead.
JRiver_Order_Channels2.png




Edit:
You can also change the order of the 4.1 output within the Penteo plugin so that the LFE is in the middle channel (3):
L -> Channel 1
R -> Channel 2
LFE -> Channel 3
Lsurround -> Channel 4
Rsurround -> Channel 5

There is still no center channel, of course, so you may still need to reorder the channels in JRiver as described above.
Penteo_Order2.png
 
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HomerJAU

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You're probably thinking of the "correct" order for 5.1 / 7.1, which has a center channel.
But that will not apply to 4.0/4.1 which has no center channel.
Yes of course.

Two important points:
1. Penteo’s Output Configuration is set to: L R C LFE LSS RSS
2. No consumer output device plays a 5 channel file with LFE in the correct order (5 ch is 5.0 not 4.1)

My argument that Penteo 4.1 channel layout is wrong:
Penteo does not output the silent C when I set its output to 1 (above). That setting is wrong for 4.1.

The solution is to offer users another option to output 4.1 as 5.1 with silent centre. At least it can then be played correctly on any consumer system.
 

HomerJAU

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Surround Master gives good results but it’s difficult and slow (real time) to record to file.

I have 4 surround systems (including my car) so creating files for future playback on all 4 is important to me.

Penteo gives great results with no artefacts, but is relatively expensive. It’s very easy to use and supports all speaker configurations 3.0 to 7.1.4 (although there’s not many players that support > 7.1 (currently)

Specweb can give good results but can also exhibit audible artefacts with certain tracks/instruments. Once I heard this I couldn’t ignore and found it dominated my listening (Either hearing it or always thinking it may be there and trying to hear it). Specweb is free though.

Both Penteo and SpecWeb do much faster than real time conversions (e.g a 40 min album in less than 10 min). Surround Master is real time (40 min album takes 40 min)
 
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J. PUPSTER

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Surround Master gives good results but it’s difficult and slow (real time) to record to file.

I have 4 surround systems (including my car) so creating files for future playback on all 4 is important to me.

Penteo gives great results with no artefacts, but is relatively expensive. It’s very easy to use and supports all speaker configurations 3.0 to 7.1.4 (although there’s not many players that support > 7.1 (currently)

Specweb can give good results but can also exhibit audible artefacts with certain tracks/instruments. Once I heard this I couldn’t ignore and found it dominated my listening (Either hearing it or always thinking it may be there and trying to hear it). Specweb is free though.

Both Penteo and SpecWeb do much faster than real time conversions (e.g a 40 min album in less than 10 min). Surround Master is really time (40 min album takes 40 min)
Yup, the real time factor for SM, I'm happy with the Penteo and once you've pulled the trigger on it you have it and is well worth the cost IMO.

Hopefully this next year Involve will put out their VST for decoding which I'm wanting to try out!
 

bracelis

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Yes of course.

Two important points:
1. Penteo’s Output Configuration is set to: L R C LFE LSS RSS
2. No consumer output device plays a 5 channel file with LFE in the correct order (5 ch is 5.0 not 4.1)

My argument that Penteo 4.1 channel layout is wrong:
Penteo does not output the silent C when I set its output to 1 (above). That setting is wrong for 4.1.

The solution is to offer users another option to output 4.1 as 5.1 with silent centre. At least it can then be played correctly on any consumer system.
It may be wrong for your own (end-user/consumer) use case.
It doesn't mean it's wrong.

As you already know, Penteo was not originally sold/marketed to end-users / consumers. It was bought/used by people who use DAW tools, who do not expect a plugin to magically add some (empty/wasted) channels -- that would not make sense.

JRiver only recently added support for VST3 in the newest version (27) -- that's what enabled the use of Penteo (which is VST3). If you want to request this feature to add an empty center for 4.1 output in Penteo -- that's perfectly fine and would definitely be useful-- now that Penteo can be used in JRiver (which is a consumer/end-user app).
But that would be a new/feature request, not to fix something that's wrong.

In the meantime, you can use the channel routing/reorder feature in JRiver, so it already works today, and therefore your feature request will probably not be on the top of the list, especially since not many users have a 4.1 setup.
 
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