Phono Preamp questions
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As the topic has drifted a bit from RIAA preamps to TT & carts.. I'll say I notice in your profile you had a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon belt drive unit? Now enjoying a
Technics SL-1200 direct drive? I suggest an interesting article on that comparison could be found way back in Popular Electronics Jan/'74 in the Stereo Scene by J. Gordon Holt on page 12. I hope y'all might seek it out & read the full article but what I find relevant to this thread is:
I don't have anything that exotic, or old, just an Audio Technica PL-120 (no USB!) TT with the same cart as J. Pupster, an AT 440mlb. I lazied my way into this purchase thinking Audio Technica would design TT's most compatabile with their cartridges. It has worked out well, I can not think of anything worth spending more money on to upgrade. And even tho I do not play CD-4 records as a rule, I tested out that combination when new with both a Panasonic SE-405 & a Clarion something number CD-4 demodulators & it worked great with both of them. And then I removed those two units as they pale in comparison to modern good quality stereo preamps that I would use most often.
Will a separate pre sound better than an integrated? Depends on which one you choose, how good your integrated is, what speakers you are using and what you will use or power if you switch to separates. Also, do you need lots of switching and controls or can you make do with a pre-amp boost box? That's the route I went. I had an Audionics BT 2 pre for many years and one day invested in a Phenomena pre-amp. You can set it up for MC or MM but you have to open the box and do lots of switching to go back and forth, so not ideal if you plan to use two different output carts. But. That said, the upgrade was mind blowing. So much more open sound with so much more space between the instruments, and added clarity. Its a bit more than you want to spend tho at about $750. Down the chain, you can get a Vincent box for about $699. Still too high? Cambridge Audio Alva is very nice at $300, or the Rega box for about the same. If you want a full feature pre-amp then the sky's the limit. I like the simplicity of using the separate box and then the levels and balance are controlled on my Audionics tate. Plenty to think about!
hobie1dog
500 Club - QQ All-Star
my answer is no. simply plug the turntable into a receiver and enjoy the music. Over analysis leads to paralysis. It simply becomes audio masturbation after awhile.
MyCuff
600 Club - QQ All-Star
My current combo in use for stereo LPs is a Pioneer PL-71, with a Music Hall mini plus phono preamp. The pioneer is a nice and heavy turntable with a beautiful real wood veneer. I would love to compare it's sound to a vintage technics 1200, as I think they were in the same league (if a different target audience) at the time. It is also designed with low impedance wiring to play CD-4. The preamp is actually made by Rolls and was $100 when I got it. I am very happy with it. It is especially quiet and the cartridge load capacitance and trim gain are nice capabilities. My favorite cart, for it, is a Shure M91ED with a LP gear N91 VL stylus. I like it better than the AT 440 MLB and Denon DL-110.
Also the pursuit of the best is SOMETIMES, FOR SOME PEOPLE the enemy of the enjoyment of the good.
(Apologies to Voltaire)
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I never much cared for the sound of my M91ED but it just goes to show what I've always said is that the phono cartridge has a major influence on sound, just about as much as speakers! They can and usually do sound radically different from one another, individuals may prefer the sound of one over the other. The sound differences of preamps can be more subtle. I prefer tubes, my own home-built unit in fact, but acknowledge that factory built units are priced through the roof! Only really for high end audiophile crazies!
MyCuff
600 Club - QQ All-Star
I have no idea what the M91ED sounds like "stock", but with the VL stylus I think it compares favorably to the two other carts I mentioned. Since the cart, and the other Pioneer turntable it was attached to, were free, I only paid for the stylus. That was $79 last year. Also perhaps, the right combination of tonearm and cartridge can sometimes just be a lucky match.
Everything interacts with each other. Shortcomings, or perhaps, more accurately, characteristics of one component can be overcome by characteristics of another, or can be amplified by others, pardon the pun. I recall many friends in the 1970s having M91EDs and similar Shure cartridges as they had a bit higher output and a much punchier sound than, say, Ortofons of the day which tended to sound a bit drab by comparison. Regardless, its down to what sounds good to you!
Soundfield
1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Of course if cartridges and pre-amps have a 'sound' then so must cutting heads, perhaps even more so. There should be an equivalent discussion of which disc lathes sound better! Don't delve to deeply though, as you might be horrified to discover the extent to which cutting equipment was (and maybe still is in some places) pretty crude and driven by some fairly cheap electronics, making the spending of fabulous sums of money on exotic cartridges and RIAA pre-amps rather problematic !
HakimJacob
New member
Hi...I concur that most interior phono stages on more current amps/receivers are awful.
Interestingly, you don't need to go through a great deal of cash for a major improvement.
I would suggest the Art Dj Pre II for 55€. It has all you require. It looks sort of monstrous, however is incredible at the cost. I have it for over 2 years now. I will just overhaul it since it has no on/off switch and looks not as decent as my other gear.
Interestingly, you don't need to go through a great deal of cash for a major improvement.
I would suggest the Art Dj Pre II for 55€. It has all you require. It looks sort of monstrous, however is incredible at the cost. I have it for over 2 years now. I will just overhaul it since it has no on/off switch and looks not as decent as my other gear.
Concur with who? I never got the impression that responses in this thread think AVR phono stages are awful.
I have the Parasound - Z Phono preamp. $200.00
https://parasound.com/zphono.php
It it reasonably priced and it does a decent job, however I have a high output MC cartridge and it is too low in MM mode and too high in MC mode. So it needs to be controlled by the processor gain settings. I have to reduce the gain considerably in MC mode to try and match the volume levels of other inputs.
If I was buying today, I would spend a little more and opt for this model as it will address any gain issues and has balanced outputs. $600.00
https://parasound.com/zphono_xrm.php
https://parasound.com/zphono.php
It it reasonably priced and it does a decent job, however I have a high output MC cartridge and it is too low in MM mode and too high in MC mode. So it needs to be controlled by the processor gain settings. I have to reduce the gain considerably in MC mode to try and match the volume levels of other inputs.
If I was buying today, I would spend a little more and opt for this model as it will address any gain issues and has balanced outputs. $600.00
https://parasound.com/zphono_xrm.php
MyCuff
600 Club - QQ All-Star
I will say that the Music Hall mini plus preamp tackled this issue by having a gain control. It is for MM and High Output MC Carts and does work great with my Denon DL-110. Not saying it compares to the one you mentioned, only that it is flexible enough to handle HO MC carts. One of the main reasons I bought it.
You guys are killing me. I'm such a NOOB in regard to phono preamps. To spend, or not to spend...that...is the question. lmao
Exactly. I run a MC cart which is why I have the one I have, the Phenomena as it is super flexible in both output but also impedance which can make a difference depending on your cart. But its a drag to set, requiring lots of tweaking. If you want one where you just flick a switch then this is not it! But the difference between my vintage high end for its day Audionics BT 2 and this unit is massive. Highly recommended if you are running a vintage pre-amp from the 1970s etc. to give a new one a shot.
I am running a Lyra MC Cart, which I think is fabulous - for me - but its around $1800, which ain't nothing...
Been looking at the raving reviews of the Music Hall phono preamps, but they seem so ovepriced (TO ME AND MY CIRCUMSTANCE!).
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