Post about Atmos benefiting audio engineers but comments are anti-Atmos

[mandrix]

A frequent gripe I hear on the interwebs is the costs for the consumer to get a working Atmos system. They don't want to spend money that may not give the return they expect.
I guess it was sort of the same for DTS-HD but since movies had it probably not a hard sell.
I for sure understand that. Some of us take a leap of faith, or maybe had heard a good Atmos system or movie and said "that's what I want".

Personally, I think that AVR's, by design mostly, try to be everything to everyone. Keep the movie watchers happy and try to appease the discriminating audiophile.
To buy an AVR that does what most of us want, or a good segment of us: analog inputs, pre-outs, a really good amplifier system, handles all the immersive codecs at minimum, that's when dollar bills start growing wings in my mind. Bless y'all that can afford the better equipment, in my mind that's just the way things are in the world and I say if you can, go big!

I picked my current AVR based on several things, including Dirac Live built in, i.e., Onkyo had to pay for the licensing instead of me.
But most of all I had to sort of scrape to buy it, and it's only what I would consider a "mid range" AVR. But it suits my needs as far as Atmos. Alas, no Auro3D or RA360 decoding. If Atmos peters out in my lifetime, and I hope not, I have amassed enough to keep me amused. Of course plenty of 4 and 5.1 as well.

 

[madscot]

A frequent gripe I hear on the interwebs is the costs for the consumer to get a working Atmos system. They don't want to spend money that may not give the return they expect.
I guess it was sort of the same for DTS-HD but since movies had it probably not a hard sell.
I for sure understand that. Some of us take a leap of faith, or maybe had heard a good Atmos system or movie and said "that's what I want".

Personally, I think that AVR's, by design mostly, try to be everything to everyone. Keep the movie watchers happy and try to appease the discriminating audiophile.
To buy an AVR that does what most of us want, or a good segment of us: analog inputs, pre-outs, a really good amplifier system, handles all the immersive codecs at minimum, that's when dollar bills start growing wings in my mind. Bless y'all that can afford the better equipment, in my mind that's just the way things are in the world and I say if you can, go big!

I picked my current AVR based on several things, including Dirac Live built in, i.e., Onkyo had to pay for the licensing instead of me.
But most of all I had to sort of scrape to buy it, and it's only what I would consider a "mid range" AVR. But it suits my needs as far as Atmos. Alas, no Auro3D or RA360 decoding. If Atmos peters out in my lifetime, and I hope not, I have amassed enough to keep me amused. Of course plenty of 4 and 5.1 as well.

When I was working my whole system was budget bought brand new, over time i’ve replaced it with better more expensive 2nd hand equipment and i’m very happy, I now have a system I could never have afforded if bought new. Examples are my speakers, they were £900 new in 2009, I paid £80 in October then added another pair of the same in November for £35 (for atmos), my avr was £600 new in 2020, I paid £100 in November, In effect I have well over £1500 worth of gear that sounds amazing and hardly cost me anything, nobody should be scared of buying 2nd hand, selling my old equipment more than paid for my new setup. I realise buying 2nd hand gives no guarantees but it’s a chance I was willing to take and it’s paid off, and have you seen the price people are willing to pay for 2nd hand oppos?

 

[JimHansonDC]

That's very true. But the question becomes, why/how were the recordings played back? I assume some one would have a way if they own a fair quantity. Then copying is not so hard with a computer.

I myself have some SQ and CD-4 LP's from the 70's. I don't have a need to copy them as that has been done.

My point was really not to stir up hard feelings! But people have to realize that to preserve vintage recordings they have to do that while the playback equipment is/was available. Back in Quad days, when I had the equipment, there was no pc's/Mac's, just R2R and cassette basically. Because of circumstances I had to sell off my Quad equipment many years ago, before pc's were available. Plus my ex absconded with well over 400 LP's (not all quad), Q8's, etc.

These days to buy modern equipment/AVR's that plays all codecs just isn't out there, but there may well be solutions I don't know about. We can complain about it, and do, but not much else except to use vintage equipment and copy as we can. Planning ahead was my intent, personal computers have been around for a while now.

I (modest brag, as people say) have a very large surround collection. Every single one has been digitized and is on a HDD, in .iso format when possible, or flac otherwise or just DTS-CD wav files. But I started a long time ago before my collection grew very large, and the net provided fill-in's for the titles I still own.

What are you using to rip and manage the .iso files? I have been frustrated trying to find a way to digitize and then have the resulting files in a manageable and usable format? Any tips?

 

[mandrix]

What are you using to rip and manage the .iso files? I have been frustrated trying to find a way to digitize and then have the resulting files in a manageable and usable format? Any tips?

For Blu Ray, DVD, DVDA I generally use DVDFab. It can recreate the .iso image from the disc minus the encryption. For BD you can also use makeMKV, from which I believe you can do a "folder backup" with the encryption removed, then it's a simple matter to assemble it in ImgBurn and create an .iso image.
For SACD I have an Oppo 103 I can use to rip a disc to .iso.

Once you have an .iso file you have the entire disc contents. Then you can further extract individual files, convert to flac, etc. if you like.
Since I use PowerDVD and VLC for playback, each of those will load an .iso file and playback more or less like loading a disc in a player (for BD's: not for SACD or DVDA). My Oppo 103 is also "jailbroke" with Chinese firmware that allows for .iso playback from my home network just as if a disc had been inserted.
For SACD and DVDA playback I generally use Foobar with the appropriate components added or might play them from the Oppo over my network.

I have no special system for managing any of these other than folders on my HDD's indicating what type of disc the .iso images came from. I also have duplicates on another pc now, as well as some dupes of BD's I keep on a set of smaller HDD's sitting boxed up on a shelf. Over time the smaller HDD's are being replaced with larger drives, e.g. 18TB drives.

If this did not answer your questions feel free to PM me.

 

[barfle]

Yeah I wish my turntable would play 78's too

Mine does, and I have a 78 stylus for my Shure cartridge.

 

[barfle]

When I was working my whole system was budget bought brand new, over time i’ve replaced it with better more expensive 2nd hand equipment and i’m very happy, I now have a system I could never have afforded if bought new. Examples are my speakers, they were £900 new in 2009, I paid £80 in October then added another pair of the same in November for £35 (for atmos), my avr was £600 new in 2020, I paid £100 in November, In effect I have well over £1500 worth of gear that sounds amazing and hardly cost me anything, nobody should be scared of buying 2nd hand, selling my old equipment more than paid for my new setup. I realise buying 2nd hand gives no guarantees but it’s a chance I was willing to take and it’s paid off, and have you seen the price people are willing to pay for 2nd hand oppos?

Exactly! I’ve been acquiring equipment and media for well over 50 years. If I were to try to get equivalent stuff today, I would fail miserably on some of it because it’s just not available, or it would take an extensive search to find, and it might well need repair if Imcould find it. The stuff I could find might be ludicrously expensive.

I won’t say I bought everything at the right time, but some of it was bought when it was available, and it hasn’t been made for decades. There are a handful of niche products out there these days that I suspect someone will say the same things about 50 years from now.

It’s a bit like having an old car. some parts are easy to find. Some parts seem to be as scarce as hen’s teeth. A good community of hobbyists who are willing to swap and sell is always helpful.

 

[marcb]

I'd love to see a survey with regard to how many listen to Atmos sources on soundbars and headphones!

My guess is folks here really don't want to know the results of such a survey...

 

[JimHansonDC]

For Blu Ray, DVD, DVDA I generally use DVDFab. It can recreate the .iso image from the disc minus the encryption. For BD you can also use makeMKV, from which I believe you can do a "folder backup" with the encryption removed, then it's a simple matter to assemble it in ImgBurn and create an .iso image.
For SACD I have an Oppo 103 I can use to rip a disc to .iso.

Once you have an .iso file you have the entire disc contents. Then you can further extract individual files, convert to flac, etc. if you like.
Since I use PowerDVD and VLC for playback, each of those will load an .iso file and playback more or less like loading a disc in a player (for BD's: not for SACD or DVDA). My Oppo 103 is also "jailbroke" with Chinese firmware that allows for .iso playback from my home network just as if a disc had been inserted.
For SACD and DVDA playback I generally use Foobar with the appropriate components added or might play them from the Oppo over my network.

I have no special system for managing any of these other than folders on my HDD's indicating what type of disc the .iso images came from. I also have duplicates on another pc now, as well as some dupes of BD's I keep on a set of smaller HDD's sitting boxed up on a shelf. Over time the smaller HDD's are being replaced with larger drives, e.g. 18TB drives.

If this did not answer your questions feel free to PM me.

Thanks for the in depth explanation. It is too bad none of the major music applications will deal with iso files, but I guess they don't want to get attacked for aiding piracy. It's just sad for those of us who have paid for the physical media to be unable to simply and effectively have it available digitally. I guess it boils down to rip them and use good naming conventions for the files. Thanks again.

 

[mandrix]

Thanks for the in depth explanation. It is too bad none of the major music applications will deal with iso files, but I guess they don't want to get attacked for aiding piracy. It's just sad for those of us who have paid for the physical media to be unable to simply and effectively have it available digitally. I guess it boils down to rip them and use good naming conventions for the files. Thanks again.

When you say major music apps and .iso files, what exactly are you talking about? For playback?

 

[MidiMagic]

Mine does, and I have a 78 stylus for my Shure cartridge.

Me too. Plus I have an equalizer to play the old recording pre-emphasis curves used before RIAA was standardized in 1957.

I also have a circuit for playing vertically recorded records.

My point about records is this:

Other than such side issues as turntable speed, recording stylus motion, groove size, pre-emphasis curves, and stereo/quadraphonic recording methods, the phonograph record is essentially unchanged from 1891 to 2024. This is because there were standards to keep records within technical limits.

I have two turntables that together can correctly play all but four records in my collection. Two of these are radio station 16-inch records (too big for the players) and the other two are CD-4. One turntable is my Collaro TSC-640/1019A 4-speed changer with size and speed intermix. The other is a Lenco L78 which can play speeds other than the four standard speeds. Both have the same Shure cartridge, so styli can be interchanged between them..

Why can't surround sound be this simple? I can't even find one receiver that can play all of the formats.

 

[Electric Moo]

And when Dolby Stratos comes out we'll all have to buy new hardware!!

I think I have an old Dual in the basement that'll play 78's. Pain in the butt to hook up another TT though.

 

[mandrix]

Me too. Plus I have an equalizer to play the old recording pre-emphasis curves used before RIAA was standardized in 1957.

I also have a circuit for playing vertically recorded records.

My point about records is this:

Other than such side issues as turntable speed, recording stylus motion, groove size, pre-emphasis curves, and stereo/quadraphonic recording methods, the phonograph record is essentially unchanged from 1891 to 2024. This is because there were standards to keep records within technical limits.

I have two turntables that together can correctly play all but four records in my collection. Two of these are radio station 16-inch records (too big for the players) and the other two are CD-4. One turntable is my Collaro TSC-640/1019A 4-speed changer with size and speed intermix. The other is a Lenco L78 which can play speeds other than the four standard speeds. Both have the same Shure cartridge, so styli can be interchanged between them..

Why can't surround sound be this simple? I can't even find one receiver that can play all of the formats.

Yet you can record all of them since you have the proper playback equipment. While you have it all working seems like a good idea to make digital copies?
I don't take anything for granted in the audio world. Everything I have is saved digitally.
I know some people believe that analog saved as digital doesn't come through but something is better than nothing.
The weak link is LP's and they don't get better over time.

 

[kfbkfb]

https://support.apple.com/en-us/109354^^^
When you download a Dolby Atmos version of a song, a stereo version of the song is downloaded too.


Due to using a 20 year old A/V receiver, I listen to the DD 5.1 downmix of Dolby Atmos content ([UHD]Blu-ray only).

A quick check of Apple Music "FAQs" revealed the above comment, since the DD 5.1 downmix of Atmos content isn't provided by Apple Music, I would like the stereo to be a matrix encoded version of the DD 5.1 downmix (perhaps a new matrix - Dolby MM [Music Matrix] - downmixed DD 5.1 L,C,R map directly to stereo L&R, DD 5.1 LS&RS summed and placed in L w/0 deg phase shift and R w/-120 deg phase shift, for example).

This matrix encoding could be partially decoded into surround sound by DPL 2 music, SQ, QS, Hafler, would offer a stereo effect slightly beyond L and R (speaker or headphone listening) and the surround content wouldn't be completely lost in mono.

My problem is that I need to convince Dolby Labs to do this.


Kirk Bayne

 

[Electric Moo]

That's a good idea. If they can downmix to other formats on the fly, why not include a matrix downmix too? That existing PLII/RM decoders can play in surround.

 

[barfle]

Me too. Plus I have an equalizer to play the old recording pre-emphasis curves used before RIAA was standardized in 1957.

I also have a circuit for playing vertically recorded records.

My point about records is this:

Other than such side issues as turntable speed, recording stylus motion, groove size, pre-emphasis curves, and stereo/quadraphonic recording methods, the phonograph record is essentially unchanged from 1891 to 2024. This is because there were standards to keep records within technical limits.

I have two turntables that together can correctly play all but four records in my collection. Two of these are radio station 16-inch records (too big for the players) and the other two are CD-4. One turntable is my Collaro TSC-640/1019A 4-speed changer with size and speed intermix. The other is a Lenco L78 which can play speeds other than the four standard speeds. Both have the same Shure cartridge, so styli can be interchanged between them..

Why can't surround sound be this simple? I can't even find one receiver that can play all of the formats.

Well, there are so many “standards” that they really aren’t standards. I recall a handful of forays into digital audio that eventually fell by the wayside, like outputting a digital signal in the form of an analog TV signal so it could be recorded on videotape. I never could play one of those, and I don’t feel like I’ve missed out on anything.

As far as surround vinyl is concerned, face it, all those formats were a flash in the pan - they showed up, but not enough people felt they were worth the expense and bother to keep them alive for more than about ten years. Many of us here are using antique gear in order to play antique formats. I’ve noted my own minor obsession with the EVR format, which was even shorter-lived. I also collect View-Master 3D reels, which are not compatible with anything but themselves. Another niche that some of us love, but most simply don’t care about.

I suspect that a lot of the market confusion we’re seeing is going to result in a few winners and several losers. I’m not clairvoyant enough to predict what falls into where, but, like many of us here, I’m making a handful of choices as to which products I’ll support and which I’ll pass on. I’ve gotten rid of anything on tape, for example, and I’m hanging on to my 3D TV instead of replacing it with 4K.

Choices like those are individual preferences. You say tomayto, I say tomahto.

 

[JimHansonDC]

When you say major music apps and .iso files, what exactly are you talking about? For playback?

I currently send either HDMI audio out from an Oppo if using physical media or stream Apple Music both feed into a Trinnov Altitude 16 which cracks the encoding does the room correction and then feeds balanced outs. I would need an app/hardware package that can read and feed the iso files in that setup. The Trinnov does have balanced inputs but then I’m running 13 cables from some a/v box instead of one HDMI.

A streaming box tha could read iso files and output HDMI I guess.

 

[JimHansonDC]

I currently send either HDMI audio out from an Oppo if using physical media or stream Apple Music both feed into a Trinnov Altitude 16 which cracks the encoding does the room correction and then feeds balanced outs. I would need an app/hardware package that can read and feed the iso files in that setup. The Trinnov does have balanced inputs but then I’m running 13 cables from some a/v box instead of one HDMI.

A streaming box tha could read iso files and output HDMI I guess.

After writing this out I took a look to see who might make a streaming box that gives an HDMI audio out and Dune HD does. Anyone have any experience with those?

 

[AYanguas]

After writing this out I took a look to see who might make a streaming box that gives an HDMI audio out and Dune HD does. Anyone have any experience with those?

Since I started to build the digital media library in HDDs, PC Server/NAS, etc. I have been using media players with the functionality of multiple file formats compatibility, including DVD/Blu-ray ISO formats. They are some of them with that functionality, either via local attached disks (sata, USB) and/or via Network (SMB, NFS).

I started years ago with the legendary Popcorn Hour, and now I'm using two models of DUNE, and the Oppo 203 (with jailbreak) (See my signature). All play network and USB disk DVD/BD ISO's, executing its whole menus, the best and more different formats compatibility is the Oppo.

 

[mandrix]

It's not a NAS but my main rig is huge, (see avatar) and I have 3 drive racks that each hold 4 HDD's and are attached to a special built frame with 120mm fan mounts for cooling each rack.
The HDD's are all controlled from an LSI SAS/SATA board.

Thus my main rig is my playback machine, 2xpc's > HDMI switch > AVR & AVR HDMI out to monitor and to tv.
IDK, I was going to buy or build a NAS but this works for me and I just use software for playback mostly as I said earlier. Plus I have dupes of my surround on the second pc.
Somewhere close to 30TB of surround now. eek! That's why I started ripping early, can't imagine ripping that much from scratch!
Playback from .iso is just more convenient to me, and I don't break down in to individual tracks as a rule, don't do playlists.

 

[JimHansonDC]

Since I started to build the digital media library in HDDs, PC Server/NAS, etc. I have been using media players with the functionality of multiple file formats compatibility, including DVD/Blu-ray ISO formats. They are some of them with that functionality, either via local attached disks (sata, USB) and/or via Network (SMB, NFS).

I started years ago with the legendary Popcorn Hour, and now I'm using two models of DUNE, and the Oppo 203 (with jailbreak) (See my signature). All play network and USB disk DVD/BD ISO's, executing its whole menus, the best and more different formats compatibility is the Oppo.

What exactly does a jailbreak do for the Oppo? I just read here that they play iso files which I was unaware of Oppo Plays 4k UHD ISO's!
If that is the case my problem is solved. I have several Oppo players.