Surround Albums to AVOID!!!

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musicmemorabiliashoppellc

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I don´t get the trashy quality of Yessongs the LP...first , it was recorded by Eddy Offord, and then we have the Progeny CD boxset which is from the same tour/gear/crew and it sounds heavenly!!!!
Check out the 2017 Japan 7" SACD/Hybrid......IMHO its AWESOME.....comes highly recomended......but expensive.....there is a used one currently in eBay asking price $199, but they are accepting offers.....
 

kap'n krunch

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From wikipedia:

"The Fragile and Close to the Edge tours had producer and engineer Eddy Offord travelling with the band as their live sound mixer who operated a sound system developed by the Clair Brothers. In addition, co-founder Roy Clair assisted with the operation of the system, and Geoff Haslam was hired as the recording engineer alongside assistant Mike Dunn to work on Yessongs.[1] As Offord was in charge of the band's sound on stage, he could not operate the recording equipment at the same time. This resulted in recordings that he was disappointed with as they were substandard. "

The ironic thing about the difficulties capturing live Yes w/ good fidelity is that their live shows always sounded amazing.
oh shit so you HAD to really work at being a BAD engineer...Geoff.. you really screwed it up, boy...
so my guess its that there was a LOT of EQing and something short of a sonic miracle cause the Progeny shows sound really good and they are from the same gear/crew.. at least "Yours is no disgrace" is presented in its unedited incarnation in Progeny...and it sounds really crappy in Yessongs
 

ProgRules

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oh shit so you HAD to really work at being a BAD engineer...Geoff.. you really screwed it up, boy...
so my guess its that there was a LOT of EQing and something short of a sonic miracle cause the Progeny shows sound really good and they are from the same gear/crew.. at least "Yours is no disgrace" is presented in its unedited incarnation in Progeny...and it sounds really crappy in Yessongs
Don't know about a miracle but I know it took lots of work to get Progeny to sound good. It's still far from great but way above Yessongs. A guy involved in it posted a good bit over at SHF. Lots of time, effort and technogy that wasn't around back then.

It occurs to me one of the effects of becoming an audio aficionado... Back when I bought Yessongs- the 1st Yes album I ever bought- it sounded fine and continued to for quite some time. But between getting better gear and becoming more discriminating, what was once so powerful has lost a lot of luster...

Check out the 2017 Japan 7" SACD/Hybrid......IMHO its AWESOME.....comes highly recomended......but expensive.....there is a used one currently in eBay asking price $199, but they are accepting offers.....
Yeah I'd love to give that a listen, but even if that price is way inflated it's too rich for my blood!
 

jimfisheye

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I guess I'll have to check out that SACD mastering.
I have an unassuming US first pressing of Yessongs that still sounds better than any CD reissue I've heard. I agree all CD reissues are curiously terrible for this title. I always thought the album sounded pretty good! Nowadays I probably only play the two Bruford tracks if I pull this one out. I have those "Progeny" CD releases and I'm still appalled at how bad the mixes and audio sounds compared to the Yessongs album. I remember reading a preamble before they were released on how all the audio was going to be mixed in amazing new detail and fidelity and then absolutely none of that came to be! So I'm confused by some of the above comments.

Are there different versions of the Progeny set and does one of them sound really good? I'd really like to hear the ones that are getting good reviews! If not, they at least sound a world better than most bootlegs, so I'm still good with that.
I DO agree that the mono mixes on the Yessongs film are uniquely lo-fi. (And beyond the lo-fi of the Progeny releases as well.) No argument there.
 

atrocity

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I'm still curious what the original quad mix for the limited 1974 (is that the right year?) theater release sounded like. I mean, we probably have a good idea it sounded pretty messed up! These were all very limited theater-only releases with all kinds of quality control issues. Based on the Floyd Pompeii quad that I'm very familiar with anyway. A common quote from reviews of these films in the theater back in the day was "loud and distorted". My sense is the Floyd's quad audio was a significant level above all the other quad concert films and the rest might just be better off being lost. But I still want to hear it for myself!
I saw it twice run from 4 track magnetic prints. I remember it sounding really good the first time, but I couldn't tell you 40+ years later if it was 4-corner quad or traditional LCRS. The second time was in a theater only set up for LCRS and the surround channel (or what was then called the effects channel) was on constantly and sounded bad. I actually talked to the projectionist (remember those?) who speculated that it was a quad print that was sending a full-range, full-volume corner channel to speakers not intended for anything like that.

A lot of mag prints were trashed after optical Dolby came along and this seems To be one of them. I also wonder why Pink Floyd's movie isn't discrete LCRS on the DVD.
 

bktouchstone

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I have bought more than a few dogs and disappointments in the course of this hobby. But far be it from me to damage the resale market by trashing them. Rather it's best to be honest but tactful in your resale language such as "Fans of mono will really appreciate this 5.1 mix!" Or "Silverline has once again out-limboed the competition on audio standards." I was in a "2nd and Charles" store (reseller of books and music and probably some other things) and found a surround disk from an artist I had never heard of in a genre I am usually pretty picky about. Boy, I should have seen that one coming. Played it once and haven't played it since. I was just excited to find one for sale somewhere in a store!
 

Scott M4

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I have a stack of Silverline discs that ALL suck. The two which are the "best," Blondie and Red Rider, still pretty much suck compared to a quality mix.
I have Liars by Todd Rundgren on Silverline and it's actually a nice discrete mix, and while no Wizard, it's a pretty good album too.
 

4-earredwonder

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I have Liars by Todd Rundgren on Silverline and it's actually a nice discrete mix, and while no Wizard, it's a pretty good album too.
There's actually about 2 dozen Silverline DVD~As that are very high on my list. Too bad a lot of their bad rap has to do with their pseudo surround UPMIXES [actually double stereo] from the Sanctuary Label. Had they just released them in 96/24 Stereo, they might have been ahead of the game.
 

Scott M4

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My first learning experience with Silverline surround was a Bob Marley "early years" album. The first track sounded pretty good and then the audio fell off a cliff.
 

himey

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There's actually about 2 dozen Silverline DVD~As that are very high on my list. Too bad a lot of their bad rap has to do with their pseudo surround UPMIXES [actually double stereo] from the Sanctuary Label. Had they just released them in 96/24 Stereo, they might have been ahead of the game.
Waiting for a list of 24 good Silverline mixes...
 

himey

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I have Liars by Todd Rundgren on Silverline and it's actually a nice discrete mix, and while no Wizard, it's a pretty good album too.
I have it. Not a huge fan but will give it another shot when I get a chance. Doesn't he have another Silverline that is especially poor? Maybe live...
 

privateuniverse

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I have it. Not a huge fan but will give it another shot when I get a chance. Doesn't he have another Silverline that is especially poor? Maybe live...
There were a couple of live Rundgren and Utopia titles on silverline. Don't waste your money on them.
 

Scott M4

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I have it. Not a huge fan but will give it another shot when I get a chance. Doesn't he have another Silverline that is especially poor? Maybe live...
Yeah, I too have a live Utopia Silverline that's not too exciting. I think I played it only once.
Liars I'll pop in once a year or so. There's some good songs in there.
 

fredblue

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Love the Los Lonely Boys and this album is one of my all-time favorites, but that said...

I have my hi-rez and surround discs on one spinner rack and my CD's on another. This is the only 'surround disc' that I've kept filed with the CD's. The surround mix is so terrible that I would never reach for it. The CD side, on the other hand, is pretty good.
you're not wrong!! 👍👍
just playing the 5.1 Dolby Digital on the DualDisc for the first time and its really underwhelming 🙁
very Front and Centre channel heavy with minimal Rear content.. such a shame as there were definite opportunities for some cool surround moments and the album is just terrific. oh well... 😢
 

Infomas

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you're not wrong!! 👍👍
just playing the 5.1 Dolby Digital on the DualDisc for the first time and its really underwhelming 🙁
very Front and Centre channel heavy with minimal Rear content.. such a shame as there were definite opportunities for some cool surround moments and the album is just terrific. oh well... 😢
What we need is a Steven Wilson type person who loves American music and wants to remix lots of great albums into glorious multi channel. My memory of first hearing the Los Lonely Boys stereo version was disappointment. I had seen them blow off the roof of a room (it was only a tent, so it was easier to blow off 🙃) in a blistering 50 minute set that was one of the most rockin' sets I had ever seen. The album and later tours were tame by comparison. But maybe an awesome multi channel mix will give me more appreciation for that album. I'm ready to go back and listen. 😊
 

ssully

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That’s just it - ‘works well enough’ - simply doesn’t come close to cutting it for such an incredible album featuring great songs and musicianship. Between Bowie’s acoustic guitar and Ronson’s electric guitars alone, the groundwork for a fantastic surround mix was there, but remains untapped.
Ken Scott did the original Ziggy...and he did the 5.1...and it's superb.

Makes me wish the original engineer *cough*EddyOfford*cough* would always be given a stab at the 5.1 mix.
 

ssully

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Unfortunately Yessongs is a terrible sounding music video. I don't understand why they can't use the multi-tracks for this show

Because no one knows where they are?

Yessongs (the movie) is from the December 1972 show(s) at the Rainbow. Not part of the Progeny multis, which all date from earlier that year.

What they *could* do, at least, is dub in and synch the stereo from Yessongs, the album (upmixed to surround as an option) of the songs 'Close to the Edge' and 'Starship Trooper (Wurm)' , because those performances are the same. Even as suboptimal as the Yessongs album audio is, it's still better than what comes with the video.

(There's video on Youtube where this has been done, by Yes superfan Hed Gilboa)
 
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ssully

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I don´t get the trashy quality of Yessongs the LP...first , it was recorded by Eddy Offord, and then we have the Progeny CD boxset which is from the same tour/gear/crew and it sounds heavenly!!!!

Bleh.

It's intolerably dull compared to Yessongs.

Offord* wasn't afraid to put a guitar lead front and center, pan a lick across the soundstage when called for, and add some phasing and reverb, at least. The band sounds really hot and *live*.

Progeny sticks Howe on the left, Rick on the right, and they don't move. Even when playing solo. And no one ever sounds too loud (and whatever heroics were used to recover Squire's parts , as documented in the CD booklet, don't seem to have worked that great, or he jsut needs to be louder in the mix) . The overall sound is very tame.

Really,compare 'Six Wives' on Yessongs vs Progeny. There's a Moog sweep that arcs across the speakers on Yessongs. On Progeny it just sits on the right. Sad.

(*Yessongs was mixed with Steve Howe and other band members at the board with Offord.)
 
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