The Virtues of Vinyl

[Clint Eastwood]

Not to go down a rabbit hole....but I have to wonder about all the 24/96 downloads. Are we for sure getting the best possible version of any particular release? I didn't think so....I've downloaded many and found most to sound pretty good, yet others to sound very thin and the DR is crap. So, how do I know that if I went out and purchased an LP version of that same title......that it wouldn't sound better?

Unfortunately downloads are a "crap shoot"...but in fairness...so are all the other forms of music...you have to use the same methods to "suss out"(I must copy Adams' use of this expression...I love it)the good from the bad...by asking on these forums and getting recommendations...just like you would for surround titles...but in this case there are fewer opinions to gather on downloads....especially with rock titles...and then there is the multichannel search for download opinions...good luck with that search...

 

[holland123]

My take on this is that everyone is right on this subject. Like Clint said you have to suss out the good from the bad. I believe the vinyl that Garry is referring to is the audiophile grade: Nautilus, Hear music, Quex, etc..
I have a friend who has million dollar audio setup in a dedicated audio room who is a high end vinyl junky. This guy has a $ 3,500 turntable, with a $2,000 mm cartridge on it, and he loves to buy those high end lp's. His amp, pre amp and universal player is all McIntosh. forgot to mention his speakers are 4 Martin Logan Prodigy's. Often times for fun we will play one of those albums with an a/b comparison of the redbook cd of the same title. The vinyl is far better in every instance, really no comparison. Now when we switch to a well done dsd mastered cd, the differences are much closer but I am sorry to say in most cases that vinyl still wins to my ear. But move to a well done sacd or dvda and the vinyl pales. Granted we both like rock, jazz, folk and blues so we're not listening to classical music. Also granted not many of us can afford a vinyl playback system like this. So my philosophy is in order for vinyl to surpass cd in sonics you need to spend a small fortune on your hardware and your software so to speak, whereas you can spend a fraction of that on a good universal player and get close to in many cases the same sonic output.

 

[fredblue]

Unfortunately downloads are a "crap shoot"...but in fairness...so are all the other forms of music...you have to use the same methods to "suss out"(I must copy Adams' use of this expression...I love it)the good from the bad...by asking on these forums and getting recommendations...just like you would for surround titles...but in this case there are fewer opinions to gather on downloads....especially with rock titles...and then there is the multichannel search for download opinions...good luck with that search...

hmm.. could it be said that all the formats are a gamble!?
i mean, we all have CDs that sound better than the Stereo tracks on a Surround SACD of the same album, or an old LP that's better sounding than a new vinyl pressing.. the mastering put on those discs is a contributor that makes one superior to the other not just comparing DVD-Apples to Blu-ray berries! tbh i don't have much experience of Hi-Res downloads but those I do have vary in quality just as much as any other delivery format might imho., so i tend to think if the masterings not there in an HD download it probably wouldn't be there on an SACD or something..
ah i'm glad you like it! 'sussing out is what i'm about'! well, not really but it sounded fun so..

 

[jimfisheye]

even though i never 'went off' vinyl as such and still had all my LPs & 45s from my "yoof", getting back into the swing of buying records again a few years back was one of the best things i've ever done.

most of all, i have vinyl to thank for really giving my surround music hobby an incredible new lease on life by getting to hear loads of old Quads (some of which nobody had ever got round to converting before, or at least putting them out there) and in the process discovered literally hundreds of 'new' (to me) Quads on the SQ & QS systems thanks in no small part to the Surround Master and latterly to a lesser extent on CD-4.. I say lesser because compared to the ease of use of the matrix systems, the CD-4 system drove me up the wall so much that by the time i'd sussed it, i was pretty much over it!

a wonderful voyage of surround music discovery made possible by lovely old records, many of which were made before I was born. ahh... happy days!

I like this.

It's the simulating the vinyl experience (poorly at that) after the fact business that I think is ridiculous.
Keeping access to the format and still finding buried treasure and examples of the technology working at its best is all just perfect!

I have to say - and I don't know who is all responsible for what - that some of the more recently shared decodes of some of the encoded surround on vinyl have shocked me for how good they turned out. I had it in my head for a good long time that the encoded surround formats just flat out didn't work (from examples of them that were so poor they didn't work at all). There's still audible mangling but there's genuine delivery at still a pretty high level in some cases.

 

[skherbeck]

For me, deciding which version of the same mix sounds best usually depends on the mastering... whichever version has the highest DR usually wins out (often this is vinyl, but it can be HDTracks, such as with The Cars albums, or SACD or DVD-A). When comparing recordings with the same mix and master, I prefer Hi-Rez digital to vinyl (I don’t like noise artifacts). (By the way, I don’t ever listen to vinyl, but I do occasionally download well done vinyl rips).

 

[jimfisheye]

Not to go down a rabbit hole....but I have to wonder about all the 24/96 downloads. Are we for sure getting the best possible version of any particular release? I didn't think so....I've downloaded many and found most to sound pretty good, yet others to sound very thin and the DR is crap. So, how do I know that if I went out and purchased an LP version of that same title......that it wouldn't sound better?

Talking about HDTracks are we?
They're notorious for lack of providence. There sadly ARE releases out there masquerading as HD where someone just took the master prepared for CD (volume war hyped) and put that to a 24/96 file. HDTracks seems to have a knack for finding these unfortunately. As well as omitting the surround mixes from album releases pretty much across the board. These guys give downloads a bad rep.

HD formats don't automatically make for good sound. They can preserve it to the fullest level if you have the good sound to begin with. Otherwise, garbage in garbage out. You could literally have an mp3 that had a higher quality sound than a 24/96 copy if you stepped on the latter enough. Lots of variables... The way stuff is released, HD vs CD/mp3 is almost more of a telltale for the mastering approach. HD will be the straight unmolested master and CD/mp3 will be the volume war hyped version. (And HDTracks will sell the hyped version in 24/96 and not say a freakin' word about it!)

 

[Clint Eastwood]

hmm.. could it be said that all the formats are a gamble!?
i mean, we all have CDs that sound better than the Stereo tracks on a Surround SACD of the same album, or an old LP that's better sounding than a new vinyl pressing.. the mastering put on those discs is a contributor that makes one superior to the other not just comparing DVD-Apples to Blu-ray berries! tbh i don't have much experience of Hi-Res dowloads but those I do have vary in quality just as much as any other delivery format might imho., so i tend to think if the masterings not there in an HD download it probably wouldn't be there on an SACD or something..
ah i'm glad you like it! 'sussing out is what i'm about'! well, not really but it sounded fun so..

It's a gamble...BUT...for us on this forum it's minimized...we have what most individuals don't have...strength in numbers...and of course we have YOU...the ultimate collector of such music...the average joe can't just dial up 1-800-FREDBLUE..because if he does he will get a recording that the number that was dialed is incorrect...well for one thing it has 1 more digit than required..but the real reason is that he resides HERE on QQ(and sometimes on loan to SHF) and he's a great resource for sonic opinions...if he doesn't own it...more than likely you don't need it or it can't be purchased....and if FREDBLUE isn't enough for you..we can dial up the WAVEMASTER...Jon(SONIC WAVE)Urban...whether it's by land or SUV...Jon can answer your questions..he's not a urban legend...that's for sure...he's real...and if that wasn't enough...if you happen to be away from civilization for a few years with Tom Hanks on a deserted island..when you return and want to catch up on what surround titles you missed...no problem on here...the Prince of Prague..aka. haikubass..has you covered...those surround listings are your guide back to music reality...you can reel in the years...and if you want to venture into downloads...this is the place...he used to be the multichannel Maven during the AF years....now he's Danny Download on here...California's own Brian Moura..a former Assistant City Manager in San Carlos and contributor to Positive Feedback..so if there is anything a member needs to know about downloads or a green initiative in your city...he's the man..

And some special kudos to a couple of members who operate in the shadows...the world of "frowned upon" but loved music upmixes who bring joy to many with their creative mixes...holland123 and skherbeck..and one that is front and center in the limelight(soon)the one and only Malnarnian...soldier...father and aspiring music talent who has already released a multichannel title..the one and only edisonbaggins….I could go on and on about the many advantages of this forum..and I haven't mentioned Snood...which deserves a mini series to just scratch the surface...so people out there lurking...come forward and be included in this melting pot of friendly souls...the only regret you will have is that we will find ways to spend your money

 

[Clint Eastwood]

The majors have been producing lousy vinyl LP pressings for 70 years, so why stop now? My favorite was Days of Future Past, which was pressed off center. No doubt an elementary training tool on how to identify wow and flutter.

You really have to think long and hard about Ralph's statement. If the high quality audiophile titles from MoFi/AP come out on LP and CD/SACD, but you get lousy pressings from the majors for other titles, then why put up with the inconvenience/ritual of playing vinyl only to be subjected to aural abuse? If it sounds bad because of a poor pressing, then why not just get the more convenient DR compressed, lousy-sounding CD or download?

Regarding the limitations of vinyl, back in the day I had a first generaiton dbx 3bx dynamic range expander. It was an expensive piece of equipment that worked wonders on LP's when used judiciously.



Millennials will become hip when one-hundred thousand of them wallow in mud and shit for three days in some field in upstate NY...Woodstock 2019!!!

They would never wallow in the mire...they wouldn't risk damaging their smart phones and ipads

 

[holland123]

you are so right jim on both points, a few of our own here have become masters at transferred quad vinyl and Q8 to dvd a/ mch flac that it is staggering.
Hdtraks is very hit-miss. Unfortunately they do often seem to place upsampled redbook up for sale and that is a shame. However some is very well done as well. Again the sussing comes into play, They should let you download a sample of the album in actual quality of what they are selling to better allow the sussing to happen.

 

[holland123]

wow, thanks for the overly kind words clint, I had no idea you were a listener

 

[GOS]

wow, thanks for the overly kind words clint, I had no idea you were a listener

He has his ways...lol...

 

[fredblue]

It's a gamble...BUT...for us on this forum it's minimized...we have what most individuals don't have...strength in numbers...and of course we have YOU...the ultimate collector of such music...the average joe can't just dial up 1-800-FREDBLUE..because if he does he will get a recording that the number that was dialed is incorrect...well for one thing it has 1 more digit than required..but the real reason is that he resides HERE on QQ(and sometimes on loan to SHF) and he's a great resource for sonic opinions...if he doesn't own it...more than likely you don't need it or it can't be purchased....and if FREDBLUE isn't enough for you..we can dial up the WAVEMASTER...Jon(SONIC WAVE)Urban...whether it's by land or SUV...Jon can answer your questions..he's not a urban legend...that's for sure...he's real...and if that wasn't enough...if you happen to be away from civilization for a few years with Tom Hanks on a deserted island..when you return and want to catch up on what surround titles you missed...no problem on here...the Prince of Prague..aka. haikubass..has you covered...those surround listings are your guide back to music reality...you can reel in the years...and if you want to venture into downloads...this is the place...he used to be the multichannel Maven during the AF years....now he's Danny Download on here...California's own Brian Moura..a former Assistant City Manager in San Carlos and contributor to Positive Feedback..so it there is anything a member needs to know about downloads or a green initiative in your city...he's the man..

And some special kudos to a couple of members who operate in the shadows...the world of "frowned upon" but loved music upmixes who bring joy to many with their creative mixes...holland123 and skherbeck..and one that is front and center in the limelight(soon)the one and only Malnarnian...soldier...father and aspiring music talent who has already released a multichannel title..the one and only edisonbaggins….I could go on and on about the many advantages of this forum..and I haven't mentioned Snood...which deserves a mini series to just scratch the surface...so people out there lurking...come forward and be included in this melting pot of friendly souls...the only regret you will have is that we will find ways to spend your money

haha.. hats off ta ya Clint..
my hotline's always on speed-dial for you bay-bee!
..if only i were so "universally appreciated" (ha!) in this little multichannel microcosm as all that but still we trundle on with the show!

long live QuadraphonicQuad and all its members who, erm, post in her!

 

[jimfisheye]

For me, deciding which version of the same mix sounds best usually depends on the mastering... whichever version has the highest DR usually wins out (often this is vinyl, but it can be HDTracks, such as with The Cars albums, or SACD or DVD-A). When comparing recordings with the same mix and master, I prefer Hi-Rez digital to vinyl (I don’t like noise artifacts). (By the way, I don’t ever listen to vinyl, but I do occasionally download well done vinyl rips).

Exactly. The mastering work is something that eludes many (ie. it isn't universally realized what can go right or wrong here). I could easily deliver something that still retained most of its fidelity in mp3 and just as easily deliver a 24/96 file on a bluray that was hash. I do listen to vinyl and I do have a pretty high end cartridge and preamp (Benz Micro and Mark Levinson products) and I have many examples of the vinyl copy being light years better than the CD copy. The vinyl format isn't THAT much better than CD (and in some ways it's worse). This is 100% a piss poor master on the CD when this happens. I've tried to download vinyl rips before... This just adds to my comment about kids wanting to hear damaged vinyl artifacts over their mp3s. Every vinyl rip I've downloaded has been inferior to even the mp3 copy of the CD for said album. The folks doing this treat the vinyl copy as a novelty, not an upgrade of their CD. I'd love to hear about something that alters that experience mind you!

The vinyl guy with the extremely excellent setup mentioned above that found no HD digital recordings to compare. Honestly, did he have the same quality DA converters as his cartridge and preamp? An Apogee or Prism unit that goes for around $5000 would fit that bill. If it was just a consumer receiver (even the higher end ones) - that would have been the reason. No argument against the poor digital masters out there, but there are real ones too and that vinyl setup should be able to just equal them next to an equivalent DA setup.

Most CD masters are honestly appalling. Zero to do with the limitations of 16 bit too! Just foul "mastering" work.
I found a fun Russian webpage (is that saying too much already) where people are sharing not just CD discographies but every different CD release even made. It's really an eye opener (even if you already knew the deal) to line them up, normalize the levels between them, and compare. There will usually be one from the late '80s that isn't too bad. A proper vinyl copy could better it sometimes because the AD converter quality of the digitizing was a little hazy. Or a proper modern AD transfer. But it's not too bad. Then as you go through the remasters from the following years/decades, they steadily go down in quality! Some of them are really shocking how much like AM radio they have them sounding. Notice the comment about normalizing the level to allow comparing them? Those shockingly poor examples are silly ridiculous volume war levels. Louder sounds better to the ear at a glance and this gimmick works on people.

 

[holland123]

absolutely jim, this guy has the top of the line Mac separate pre amp and power amp, i don't see any reason why you would place another dac in line with a several thousand dollar pre amp and a several thousand dollar power amp. And we have auditioned the physical dsd discs, he's not a downloader and is one of these guys who believes that you can't burn a quality disc from a computer. forgot to remention the Mac universal disc player which was only sold for a few years and from what I remember had Burr-Brown on board.

 

[ar surround]

Probably the one thing I miss about vinyl is that you must choose which side of an album you will play and then stick with it. All to often, I'll play an optical disc or a rip, start from the first track and never make it through to the end. Also of interest were the debates about whether side 1 is better than side 2 and vice versa. There are advantages to being able to listen to DSOTM from start to finish without flipping the record, but I need to dedicate a week to listening to only "side 2's" of my rips.

 

[fredblue]

Probably the one thing I miss about vinyl is that you must choose which side of an album you will play and then stick with it. All to often, I'll play an optical disc or a rip, start from the first track and never make it through to the end. Also of interest were the debates about whether side 1 is better than side 2 and vice versa. There are advantages to being able to listen to DSOTM from start to finish without flipping the record, but I need to dedicate a week to listening to only "side 2's" of my rips.

the thing i miss about vinyl when i haven't played a record for a while is the hole in my head!

so i regularly have a fresh vinyl tap (doink! ⛏ ) to make sure playing records drives me as wild as is humanly possible!