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HiRez Poll Tomita - CLAIR DE LUNE (SACD JAPAN)
- Thread starter JonUrban
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Please post your thoughts and comments on this 4.0 SACD issue of Tomita - Clair De Lune (Ultimate Edition), which is derived from the old 1970's RCA Quadraphonic release titled "Snowflakes Are Dancing", a quad era staple.
Please note this disc is only available from Japan and mail order vendors who obtain stock from Japan. If you have one, please mention where you got it so that other interested members can get a clue as to the best places to get one for themselves.
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I just received this for Christmas today and listened to the entire disc while watching the snow gently falling in my back yard!! OMG... 
All I know of this one, so far, is from the CD-4LP, and the Dolby Surround CD (which sounds pretty damn good played through the Surround Master). It's a great album.
How does this compare with the same tracks on the Dutton Vocalion Snowflakes are Dancing?
I've since gotten the SACD from Japan, and it floored me! The sound was first rate, the mix, which sounds to have been slightly reworked, was even better than I remembered, and it held my fascination, start to finish. Denon did a superb job with this Ultimate Edition. I've since gotten all of the Ultimate Edition discs, and love all of them.
national-kid
Active Member
I think the sound source of Clair de Lune (SACD version) is very similar to the Dolby version (09026-63588-2 etc.). Therefore, the SACD version seems to be a little disappointing mix because the back is almost monaural.
By the way, the Dolby version shifts the phase of the sound in the center of the rear a little so that it will not be canceled due to the reverse phase relationship in monaural playback.
I have to disagree. I just played it again yesterday, and there was discrete separation across the back speakers. There were discrete versions out, too; CD-4, Q4, and Q8, so why would they resort to a Dolby Surround mix for this SACD? I have all of Tomita's Ultimate Edition Denon SACD's, and all are wonderful. Why should this be any different?
national-kid
Active Member
I compared their Lissajous waveforms (and the localization of the sound when played with the QS method) of the Dolby CD sound source and the QS-encoded SACD sound source. (I also encoded the SACD sound source by the QS method, so I can check the sound source direction by looking at the Lissajous waveform, just like the QS sound source, SQ sound source, and Dolby sound source)
Dolby version of "Firebird": Almost QS.
Dolby version of "Pictures At An Exhibition": Almost QS.
Dolby version of "Snowflakes Are Dancing": Almost QS.
Dolby version of "Planets": The content itself is different. (The length of the song itself is different)
Dolby version of "Kosmos": Almost QS. (The sound source of SACD is "Space Fantasy")
The SACD version has localization to the front left and right. The Dolby version is mixed as if it was QS-encoded, and (although it is localized forward and left and right when decoded by the QS method), it is not localized forward and left and right when played back by the Dolby method. In addition, it is a recording with more localization directly behind than left and right behind. (It's a dolby-like impression)
Dolby version of "Firebird": Almost QS.
Dolby version of "Pictures At An Exhibition": Almost QS.
Dolby version of "Snowflakes Are Dancing": Almost QS.
Dolby version of "Planets": The content itself is different. (The length of the song itself is different)
Dolby version of "Kosmos": Almost QS. (The sound source of SACD is "Space Fantasy")
The SACD version has localization to the front left and right. The Dolby version is mixed as if it was QS-encoded, and (although it is localized forward and left and right when decoded by the QS method), it is not localized forward and left and right when played back by the Dolby method. In addition, it is a recording with more localization directly behind than left and right behind. (It's a dolby-like impression)
I have the Tomita Dolby CD's. Played in Pro Logic II, there is separation across the rear speakers, as well as the fronts. The original Dolby Surround decoders split the same signal across both rear speakers, as well as a 7 kHz top end in the rears. Pro Logic added the center, but still the mono rears. Pro Logic II made the rears full range, along with separation in the rears. I've listened to the Tomita CD's, both in PL II, and through the Surround Master. They sounded excellent through both decoders.
There is nothing to compare. There is no Dutton Snowflakes.
national-kid
Active Member
The contents of "Planets" are different for Dolby, DVD and SACD. Mr. Tomita must have been very attached to this work.
Supplementally,
In the SACD version, the front left sound is localized from the front left corner, and the front right sound is localized to the front right corner.
However, the Dolby version is localized a little inward. (It looks like a signal using a QS encoder)
And as I said before,
The rear is not the +90 degree/-90 degree phase shift of the QS standard, but the phase shift of about +80 degree/-80 degree of the Dolby standard so as not to cancel in monaural playback.
Therefore, it is recommended to play Tomita's Dolby version with a QS decoder because it can be played with a localization close to that of the SACD version.
What you should pay attention to here is the playback of the Dolby version.
The Dolby (or DTS, etc.) decoder built into the AV amplifier eliminates the phase correlation by delaying the rear channel so that the front and rear do not interfere. (If remove the correlation, the separation sounds good, so may have aimed for it)
Therefore, SM etc. are localized to a relatively average 360 degrees, but Dolby is hardly localized on the left and right wall sides (True left/True right etc.) and the sound is considerably blurred.
By the way, even in the SQ method, the sound on the left and right wall sides tends to be difficult to localize because the separation is poor.
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This is an interesting conversation! I only have the vinyl "snowflakes are dancing" so it's good to hear about the different mixes/versions. I had no idea they released it under a new name in SACD.
Just got this for a good price on Amazon. An excellent listen and immersive mix. Iām transported to Tomitaās magical place once again.
technopop.info
Member
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2012
- Messages
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He told me years before this was released that he felt he made many learning mistakes recording the 1974 album and wished he could fix things. There are some distorted parts and tape noise. He got his chance.
He is starting with his 1974 recording digitized into Steinberg Nuendo software as far as I know. I'm guessing he did not remix or replace much. He did do his own quad mixes for the original. Have not had the time to really guess what his new work flow was. He added a brand new track Arabesque no.2. A demo he had used in the 70s on building synth sounds (whistle and chime) and Nuages which is a 1970s outtake used for a play
I'm certain he had multitracks for The Tomita Planets Ultimate SACD because he separated and kept some parts and replaced others with new playing. Not talking about the DVD-A from 2003, but it's possible he had unmixed multitracks there too.
For Snowflakes I can guess he had an original quad and a stereo mix but that he probably bounced a lot to get there so I don't think he had multitracks of the whole thing separated . same with Pictures
He is starting with his 1974 recording digitized into Steinberg Nuendo software as far as I know. I'm guessing he did not remix or replace much. He did do his own quad mixes for the original. Have not had the time to really guess what his new work flow was. He added a brand new track Arabesque no.2. A demo he had used in the 70s on building synth sounds (whistle and chime) and Nuages which is a 1970s outtake used for a play
I'm certain he had multitracks for The Tomita Planets Ultimate SACD because he separated and kept some parts and replaced others with new playing. Not talking about the DVD-A from 2003, but it's possible he had unmixed multitracks there too.
For Snowflakes I can guess he had an original quad and a stereo mix but that he probably bounced a lot to get there so I don't think he had multitracks of the whole thing separated . same with Pictures
