who did the most damage to surround music?

[jaybird100]

Word is that there are three Steely Dan albums, all released by ABC in QS, that the band wanted to have mixed for multichannel SACD release, and several more Elton John albums that Sir Elton himself has begged UMG to do, under the superb auspices of Elliot Scheiner. UMG said a very
emphatic no. If the artists want it done, and are willing to participate, the record companies should go for anything that would make the public re-buy these titles. I would definitely buy the Steely Dan recordings, and I'd be first in line for the Elton John discs, too. I'm tired of the (this time I'll say it) bullshit that the record companies are giving us.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

I don't think the Elton John catalog is a big seller now and there were I believe 7 high resolution Elton John releases, I have 5 and don't have "Honky Chateau" or "Peachtree Road", so I know there were at least that many. I have "Gaucho" and it was a bullseye on DVD-A and I assume the SACD is as good so I agree more from those two artists would be great, but I don't know if the companies could make any money by releasing the titles. I also don't know the royalty requirements on those releases with multiple versions per disc or multiple sides per disc and what price the market would bear. I am afraid it is hopeless now and all we can do is hope HD DVD or Blu-ray will have a large library of titles with limited quantities, probably priced high and intended for niche market status, like LP or Mobile Fidelity CD/SACD or Telarc SACD or AIX DVD-A, etc is handled now. Great quality priced high with very limited quantities. Trying to make it mass market, priced reasonably hasn't worked at all unfortunately.

Chris

 

[jaybird100]

Sadly, you're probably right, Chris. But had the
record companies been smart, they would have released a single inventory version with both hi-rez and standard-rez (hybrid SACD). Dual Disc came on the scene a bit late. One disc, all situations. But hindsight is 20/20, and maybe they learned a lesson from all this. It may be all for naught, since the industry appears to be headed toward an all-download distribution. The little silver discs may be on the way out. See the latest issue of Sound and Vision for that.

 

[cupboy]

Additionally, when the REM titles were out, there was an advertising campaign on TV here that mentioned the CD, the DVD-Video - but not even a word about a DVD-A version, or a surround mix. Nada, zip, nothing at all.
How are consumers supposed to buy into something they have no knowledge of?

Reminds me of the old "also available on cassette and 8-track" days. They always forgot to mention the reel.

 

[Craig730il]

I really think the fault lies with retailers, at least here in Australia. I live in Canberra, the nations capital, and it is impossible to buy SACD here, except for one or two classical releases. If you ask for DVD-A they point you towaerds a whole shelf of DVD-V music Video's....... There is only one place who sells SACD's online in any grat quantity here, but you can expect a 6-8 week wait... Personally i buy almost everythng from the states, and it gets here in around 4-5 days. But, how does the average consumer ever get to listen to good quality sound, if no shops actually stock or heaven forbit demo the stuff. Obviouslt there is more money to be made it 42" plasma screens and MP3 players...

 

[neil wilkes]

SOny still don't help though.
http://www.sonydadc.com/news.pressrelease.go?id=41
It will be very interesting to see if this means that one of only 2 DVD-A replication facilities in the UK is now going to stop providing the service.

As a rule of thumb, Sony refuse to even take DVD-A orders, even for DualDisc (which they hold exclusive rights to replicate in Europe).
And this is not hearsay. We tried to get DualDisc replicated here, and were told (and we still have the letter from Sony Europe) saying that they would not accept the order & we should hold the release back until Blu Ray was developed.
Ditto HDAD.
You cannot get these made except by Deluxe, and they have been bought out by Sony. Reason?
Apparently, HDAD is "owned" by Warner USA.

Why are they so scared of DVD-A? Could it be because it is better than anything they have yet come up with? And cheaper to make as well, plus if a hybrid it plays on all DVD players.
Hmmm.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

SOny still don't help though.
http://www.sonydadc.com/news.pressrelease.go?id=41
It will be very interesting to see if this means that one of only 2 DVD-A replication facilities in the UK is now going to stop providing the service.

Maybe Sony will continue to replicate DVD-A as a business decision? Maybe the contract requires Sony honor any existing orders? I don't know what it means but having only one DVD-A replication facility can't mean anything now if that happens. How can even one have much DVD-A business?

Chris

 

[elmer]

Any plant that replicates DVD can replicate DVD-A. If the content provider requires copy protection (CPPM), then the replicator must license the appropriate "keys" to apply it - not an inexpensive proposition in of itself.

 

[elmer]

SOny still don't help though.
http://www.sonydadc.com/news.pressrelease.go?id=41
It will be very interesting to see if this means that one of only 2 DVD-A replication facilities in the UK is now going to stop providing the service.

As a rule of thumb, Sony refuse to even take DVD-A orders, even for DualDisc (which they hold exclusive rights to replicate in Europe).
And this is not hearsay. We tried to get DualDisc replicated here, and were told (and we still have the letter from Sony Europe) saying that they would not accept the order & we should hold the release back until Blu Ray was developed.
Ditto HDAD.
You cannot get these made except by Deluxe, and they have been bought out by Sony. Reason?
Apparently, HDAD is "owned" by Warner USA.

Why are they so scared of DVD-A? Could it be because it is better than anything they have yet come up with? And cheaper to make as well, plus if a hybrid it plays on all DVD players.
Hmmm.

Sony Europe is not the exclusive European manufacturer of DualDisc - Sonopress (a Bertelsmann company) is an approved manufacturer of DualDisc in Europe.

 

[neil wilkes]

I really hope i am wrong & you are right - but there is a lot more than meets the eye going on.
I'll start a new thread though, as I seem to be wildly off-topic here.

 

[winopener]

Sonopress is owned by the BMG group which merged with Sony less than 1 year ago.

Neil,
what about duplication of dvd-a in russia or other east-europe countries?

 

[Guy Robinson]

Why are they so scared of DVD-A? Could it be because it is better than anything they have yet come up with? And cheaper to make as well, plus if a hybrid it plays on all DVD players.
Hmmm.

Probably. They seem to good at both killing formats and not launching planned formats. Two problems that should result in bankrupcy for any "normal" company.

 

[elmer]

Sonopress is owned by the BMG group which merged with Sony less than 1 year ago.

Neil,
what about duplication of dvd-a in russia or other east-europe countries?

This is a common misconception about the merger.

Sonopress is not part of BMG. Bertelsmann owns many companies/divisions;
Random House, Gruner & Jahr, Arvato Services, BMG, etc. Sonopress is part of Arvato Services. The merger only involved Sony Music and BMG music. The other companies remain 100% owned by Bertelsmann - Sony likewise. Sonopress and DADC have no relationship with each other and remain competitors.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

Probably. They seem to good at both killing formats and not launching planned formats. Two problems that should result in bankrupcy for any "normal" company.

Apparently Sony actually made some money recently with profits from flat panel displays, but I agree these are terrible times for Sony overall. I still think it is silly to blame Sony for the apparent failure of DVD-A. Sony refused to make and sell VHS VCRs for many years, people wanted VHS and purchased VHS VCRs and rented VHS tapes. Sony started making VHS VCRs and eventually gave up on Beta as a consumer format. If DVD-A was a product the consumer wanted, it would have been a success, period and there is nothing Sony could do to stop that. Sony doesn't control enough of the music to change that. I understand if Sony had embraced DVD-A, not offered SACD, DVD-A might have succeeded. If every company had agreed SACD made the most sense and never launched DVD-A, I think we could walk into any music store today and see isles of hybrid SACD, but nobody blames the DVD-A contingent for the SACD failure.

Sony does need a market success now, so we will see what PS3 and Blu-ray do. I happen to love hybrid SACD, the best and most consistent audio format I have ever owned. My hybrid SACD discs play reliably in the players I own, period, no exceptions. I also like DVD-A and DualDisc but find more problems with those formats although if either had gained a hold on the market, I could have lived with that as well.

Chris

 

[bmoura]

I am afraid it is hopeless now and all we can do is hope HD DVD or Blu-ray will have a large library of titles with limited quantities, probably priced high and intended for niche market status, like LP or Mobile Fidelity CD/SACD or Telarc SACD or AIX DVD-A, etc is handled now. Great quality priced high with very limited quantities. Trying to make it mass market, priced reasonably hasn't worked at all unfortunately.

Chris

Don't know about AIX, but the Telarc SACDs are pretty reasonable. Last time I checked they were going for $19.99 - not that bad.

And in the case of their recent Jazz Surround Sound SACD, Some Shunk Funk by the Brecker Brothers, that Single Inventory SACD was only $15.99 on the Telarc web site.

 

[jaybird100]

I But, how does the average consumer ever get to listen to good quality sound, if no shops actually stock or heaven forbid demo the stuff? Obviously there is more money to be made it 42" plasma screens and MP3 players...

I demo with SACD and DVD-A a lot, and despite how good it sounds, and the customers acknowledge it, they'd still rather have their downloads. I had a customer just yesterday who wanted something just to connect his iPod to for better sound. I told him there was NOTHING that could make an iPod sound better, because of the highly compressed format the device uses. I then demoed a cut from Anne Murray's new dual disc
(which is amazing, by the way) and watched his jaw drop. I explained about DVD-A and SACD, and why they had so much more to offer. I can't say he was a convert, but I did open his, er, ears to better sound.
I have also, in the past, gone into a number of record stores, and even some Best Buy and Circuit City stores, asking about DVD-A and SACD. In Best Buy, they at least knew what I was talking about, and showed me the one section where they kept them all. But in Circuit City, asking about something that could play such discs, I got mostly blank stares, which told me they had no clue what I was asking about. When I tried to explain what it was all about, the clerk got bent out of shape and accused me of purposely trying to make him look foolish. I told him he was doing a pretty good job of it by himself, and I left. As Bugs Bunny would say, "What a maroon!"

Jay

 

[Baba O'Riley]

Hi first post for me
I voted for: "The Shops: Total lack of promtion, Hard or Software".

Although I think it's a combination of all the given options.
For movies the most people think surround is great (cheap 5.1 set), but not for music.

They had a chance with DVD, one format for movies and music. But they did not stop producing redbook-cd's.
And there was the confusion over (single-layer/hybrid)SACD, hi-rez, DTS, Dolby Digital and go on and on...

 

[seriousfun]

I voted Sony - because it's fun!

real reasons:

Two competing formats. Come on, how can a corporation have an ego? Drop the pretense, agree on a format, and sell some boxes.

Stores. Not that they fell down on their own, but they were suffering from challenges when SA-CD and DVD-A were introduced. No wonder they didn't put all their attention into two new competing formats, when they thought that their CD goose would continue to deliver $$$ - and perfect sound... - forever.

Downloads and radio - the other distribution media couldn't really deliver hi-rez or surround. These markets have to operate synergystically.

Mixers - pop mixes delivered with LFE channel content, over- or under-use of the Center Channel or Surround Channels, all-five-channels-working, up-mixed, etc., instead of compelling, creative surround mixes. All of these conspire to give inconsistent results from system to system, frustrating people who might be adventurous enough to listen to a surround mix on their home theater system, for example.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

I blame Sony all the way. Who's going to buy a disc that looks like a CD, but has a sticker on top that says "Plays Only On SACD Players." SACD players we're expensive when they first came out. They should have - and still should - faze out CDs and make all Disc's CD/SACD compatible.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

Darn.......... I guess that means my rock band won't get a record contract now with "Sony Records."