Do this backwards: Where do 5.1 and Atmos parts appear in stereo

[SeeMoreDigital]

Again: The TrueHD 7.1 contains all of the audio information. If the Dolby Atmos Renderer is not in the user's signal chain, all of the object-oriented elements remain present at the mixer's intended level. [/URL].

Thanks for this providing this information. It makes a lot more sense now...

 

[ssully]

I used an Apple TV 4K and an Oppo for a while, outputting 5.1, and it sounded great. There is a guy on AVS Forum who explains the process much better than I can, so I will leave it to him. His handle is "sdurani".

sanjay is an excellent source of audio information generally

 

[JediJoker]

All objects (including the height channels which must be treated as objects) are part of the metadata. The old pre-Atmos decoder can't read it and ignores it. Thus you only get the 7.1 bed audio. The height channels and any mix objects that would place in other channels are omitted.

Please stop spreading misinformation, @jimfisheye. @sjcorne is correct:

Again: The TrueHD 7.1 contains all of the audio information. If the Dolby Atmos Renderer is not in the user's signal chain, all of the object-oriented elements remain present at the mixer's intended level. But don't take my word for it, try converting an Atmos Blu-Ray directly to 7.1 FLAC (using something like AudioMuxer or DVD Audio Extractor) and see if any height info is missing - I cited some easy examples in the Stones thread.

 

[austinsignal]

No! The point is having the mix translate to other speaker arrays. Both smaller and larger. Not to just gaslight the listener! A main point of Atmos is still to deliver a mix 1:1 when the consumer has the same speaker array it was mixed on.

Of course the idea is to also make channel-agnostic possible. It's a fine idea too and leads to a lot of positive stuff! I'm annoyed by what appears to be people abandoning the concept of audiophile listening and listening to a mix 1:1 on the same speaker array it was created on. This is the main point to me while the upmixing and downmixing are a secondary thing.

Original mix speaker array needs to be on the album cover!

So... I know I'm left field of "mainstream". Surround sound for me is purely for music and meaningless for movie soundtracks. I kind of thought I was in my kind of territory around here with that!

simply not true. When mixing ATMOS content, I can toggle between 7.1.4, 5.1, 5.1.4, 7.0, physical, etc. to check various deployments environment. I even have a custom monitoring scene to check 5.1. with the surround speakers mounted up high (many 5.1 environments have surrounds in the ceilings). I believe Dolby actually supports up to 11.1.8 currently. For mixing, Dolby recommends at least 7.1.4 (many people mixing in 9.1.4, though). However, Dolby makes no assertions as to what the proper or recommended listening format is. In fact the whole point of ATMOS is effectively decoding to the listener's format/environment. And generally, Dolby is remarkably good at it. Even a single Sonos ERA 300 speaker plays ATMOS beautifully...I'm not sure which format I'm hearing, but the experience is WAY past what any other single speaker can deliver...

Also, the idea that people listen to stereo content on the 'system for which it was mixed' is a ruse. People listen on single speakers, lousy stereo speakers, a single pair of earbuds shared between two people, etc I've delivered stereo mixes to people that evaluate the mix entirely on their awful rigs in their car. I had one client that insisted on a reference lacquer to evaluate for their vinyl project. I found out later they were using a Crosley Cruiser....

 

[JediJoker]

I had one client that insisted on a reference lacquer to evaluate for their vinyl project. I found out later they were using a Crosley Cruiser....

 

[MidiMagic]

No decoder?
Static sound! And quite loud!

But you probably meant with an older decoder that is not Atmos compatible.
The older decoders will only see the TrueHD 7.1 part of the file. All objects (including the height channels which must be treated as objects) are part of the metadata. The old pre-Atmos decoder can't read it and ignores it. Thus you only get the 7.1 bed audio. The height channels and any mix objects that would place in other channels are omitted.

It would be the modern version of listening to a stereo tape in someone's car where they only had one channel hooked up. Remember hearing that back in the day with a Beatles song (or other hard stereo mix like that)?

Atmos is copy protection first and foremost that aims to make you buy the decoder to hear the music.

So where is this decoder physically located?

 

[jimfisheye]

So where is this decoder physically located?

It's software code. It's part of the Dolby reference player app. It is included in the firmware code for hardware AVRs, shitbars, and Apple TVs that are Atmos decoding compatible. (If not specifically in the firmware... it's in the operating code set somewhere in the devices.) At present they are not licensing it to any other software media player apps. Their reference player is the only one (and that's why they are keeping release of it restricted to their corporate partners at present.)

Haha, are the folks listening to their phones, single speakers, single earbuds, etc anywhere near this forum? I thought we were in surround sound and 12 channel mixes territory!

I mean, I'm all for including everyone near and far. Making mixes that can translate to cheapness while still being audiophile and the whole bit. Really truly. And I think the lowest common denominator keeps raising too even if there are weird dips in the graph to zoom in on here and there. The suggestion that mistakes or running on misconceptions doesn't matter because everyone is listening to a single ear bud... That's more the outlier and on them.

 

[kfbkfb]

https://www.discogs.com/release/2909101-Various-Surround-Spectacular-The-Music-The-Tests(used this disc to test whether a single shared DAC would mess up Dolby Pro-Logic decoding - it didn't seem to)

Is there a Blu-ray disc with many test tones/signals that can be used to find out where sounds are mapped in the Atmos downmixes?


Kirk Bayne

 

[Sonik Wiz]

https://www.discogs.com/release/2909101-Various-Surround-Spectacular-The-Music-The-Tests(used this disc to test whether a single shared DAC would mess up Dolby Pro-Logic decoding - it didn't seem to)

Is there a Blu-ray disc with many test tones/signals that can be used to find out where sounds are mapped in the Atmos downmixes?


Kirk Bayne

This might be useful to try:

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/demolandia-trailers-test-tones-and-more.34274/
Edit: More to the point within that website:

https://www.demolandia.net/cinema/dolby-demo-trailers-hd/page-10.html

 

[LB-V]

It would be the modern version of listening to a stereo tape in someone's car where they only had one channel hooked up

Not an accurate analogy as @sjcorne and others have clarified. Atmos meta data information adds elements (sounds) to the heights, as an example, but removes that same element from the bed. If there are no heights or no Atmos renderer ("decoder"), nothing is subtracted from the bed. You get all the intended elements regardless.

 

[barfle]

So with all this discussion it got me to wondering, is there any way to read and analyze the atmos metadata so you could know what the “object” being placed is, where it’s placed in the bed, and the coordinates of its intended location. The screen grab earlier looks like it says a few things about the objects, but I know the information has to be fairly extensive in order to define a signal precisely enough to subtract it from at least two channels and restore it in a 3D matrix.

 

[MidiMagic]

It's software code. It's part of the Dolby reference player app. It is included in the firmware code for hardware AVRs, shitbars, and Apple TVs that are Atmos decoding compatible. (If not specifically in the firmware... it's in the operating code set somewhere in the devices.) At present they are not licensing it to any other software media player apps. Their reference player is the only one (and that's why they are keeping release of it restricted to their corporate partners at present.)

Haha, are the folks listening to their phones, single speakers, single earbuds, etc anywhere near this forum? I thought we were in surround sound and 12 channel mixes territory!

I mean, I'm all for including everyone near and far. Making mixes that can translate to cheapness while still being audiophile and the whole bit. Really truly. And I think the lowest common denominator keeps raising too even if there are weird dips in the graph to zoom in on here and there. The suggestion that mistakes or running on misconceptions doesn't matter because everyone is listening to a single ear bud... That's more the outlier and on them.

So if I have such a recording, is there any way to play it for a friend who does not have the equipment?

 

[hi-res_edition]

Not sure if this is the correct forum topic --- but here I go... OK, Hive Mind, interestingly I have been sent a advance promo of an album for review that is Atmos. However, the format I received it in is WAVE, 10 channels. So, from my perspective, that would be 5.1.4. But what software if any can play that file and I seriously doubt that sending it out over HDMI to the processor would actually yeild the correct results. Thoughts? Please know that I confirm what is contained in the WAVE file by opening it in Sound Forge, but I do not have a multi-channel analog out from any PC to handle this!

Probably my best bet is to go back to the promoter and ask for an MKV or MP4 - but I thought I would try here first to see if anyone has encountered this, and if they know a solution.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Not sure if this is the correct forum topic --- but here I go... OK, Hive Mind, interestingly I have been sent a advance promo of an album for review that is Atmos. However, the format I received it in is WAVE, 10 channels.

Interesting, I wonder if it's a native Dolby MAT .wav contained file...

If you can please try running the file through an application called MediaInfo (set to text mode) and post what it reports 'in full' as a text file.

Cheers

 

[sjcorne]

Not sure if this is the correct forum topic --- but here I go... OK, Hive Mind, interestingly I have been sent a advance promo of an album for review that is Atmos. However, the format I received it in is WAVE, 10 channels. So, from my perspective, that would be 5.1.4. But what software if any can play that file and I seriously doubt that sending it out over HDMI to the processor would actually yeild the correct results. Thoughts? Please know that I confirm what is contained in the WAVE file by opening it in Sound Forge, but I do not have a multi-channel analog out from any PC to handle this!

Probably my best bet is to go back to the promoter and ask for an MKV or MP4 - but I thought I would try here first to see if anyone has encountered this, and if they know a solution.

That sounds like an ADM BWF - you need the Dolby Renderer to play it.

 

[hi-res_edition]

If you can please try running the file through an application called MediaInfo (set to text mode) and post what it reports 'in full' as a text file.

Pretty neat little app: Here is the output, and the post above indicates what I thought may be true, that I may need the Dolby Renderer. Looking at the details, I am guessing already that is the case. See below:

General
Complete name : D:\Media\Reviews\(***removed)\02 ((***removed) (ATMOS).wav
Format : Wave
Format settings : PcmWaveformat
File size : 620 MiB
Duration : 7 min 31 s
Overall bit rate mode : Constant
Overall bit rate : 11.5 Mb/s

Audio
Format : PCM
Format settings : Little / Signed
Codec ID : 1
Duration : 7 min 31 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 11.5 Mb/s
Channel(s) : 10 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth : 24 bits
Stream size : 620 MiB (100%)
Dolby Atmos metadata : Yes
Writing application : Dolby Atmos Album Assembler, Version 1.2.1
5.1 to 2.0 downmix : Lo/Ro w/o Phase 90
5.1 and 5.1.x downmix : Standard (Lo/Ro)
Associated video frame rate : 24.000 FPS
Trim mode : Automatic
Metadata format : ADM, Version 0
Metadata muxing mode : axml
ADM profile : Dolby Atmos Master, Version 1
Number of programmes : 1
Number of contents : 1
Number of objects : 1
Number of pack formats : 1
Number of channel formats : 10
Number of track UIDs : 10
Number of track formats : 10
Number of stream formats : 10
Programme #1 : Atmos_Master
ID : APR_1001
Title : Atmos_Master
Start : 00:00:00.00000 (00:00:00:00)
End : 00:07:31.25333 (00:07:31:07-1840samples)
Content #s : 1
Content #1 : Atmos_Master_Content
ID : ACO_1001
Title : Atmos_Master_Content
Mode : Mixed
Object #s : 1
Object #1 : Atmos_Bed_1
ID : AO_1001
Title : Atmos_Bed_1
Duration : 00:07:31.25333
Pack format #s : 1
Track UID #s : 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 + 10
Binaural render mode : Not Indicated (Mid) + Not Indicated (Mid) + Not Indicated (Mid) + Off + Not Indicated (Mid) + Not Indicated (Mid) + Not Indicated (Mid) + Not Indicated (Mid) + Not Indicated (Mid) + Not Indicated (Mid)
Pack format #1 : AtmosCustomPackFormat1
ID : AP_00011001
Title : AtmosCustomPackFormat1
Type definition : DirectSpeakers
Channel layout : L R C LFE Lss Rss Lb Rb Tsl Tsr
Channel format #s : 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 + 10
Channel format #1 : RoomCentricLeft
ID : AC_00011001
Title : RoomCentricLeft
Type definition : DirectSpeakers
Channel layout : L
Type : Static
Channel format #2 : RoomCentricRight
ID : AC_00011002
Title : RoomCentricRight
Type definition : DirectSpeakers
Channel layout : R
Type : Static
Channel format #3 : RoomCentricCenter
ID : AC_00011003
Title : RoomCentricCenter
Type definition : DirectSpeakers
Channel layout : C
Type : Static
Channel format #4 : RoomCentricLFE
ID : AC_00011004
Title : RoomCentricLFE
Type definition : DirectSpeakers
Channel layout : LFE
Type : Static
Channel format #5 : RoomCentricLeftSideSurround
ID : AC_00011005
Title : RoomCentricLeftSideSurround
Type definition : DirectSpeakers
Channel layout : Lss
Type : Static
Channel format #6 : RoomCentricRightSideSurround
ID : AC_00011006
Title : RoomCentricRightSideSurround
Type definition : DirectSpeakers
Channel layout : Rss
Type : Static
Channel format #7 : RoomCentricLeftRearSurround
ID : AC_00011007
Title : RoomCentricLeftRearSurround
Type definition : DirectSpeakers
Channel layout : Lb
Type : Static
Channel format #8 : RoomCentricRightRearSurround
ID : AC_00011008
Title : RoomCentricRightRearSurround
Type definition : DirectSpeakers
Channel layout : Rb
Type : Static
Channel format #9 : RoomCentricLeftTopSurround
ID : AC_00011009
Title : RoomCentricLeftTopSurround
Type definition : DirectSpeakers
Channel layout : Tsl
Type : Static
Channel format #10 : RoomCentricRightTopSurround
ID : AC_0001100a
Title : RoomCentricRightTopSurround
Type definition : DirectSpeakers
Channel layout : Tsr
Type : Static
Track UID #1 : ATU_00000001
ID : ATU_00000001
Bit depth : 24
Sampling rate : 48000
Track index : 1
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 1
Binaural render mode : Not Indicated (Mid)
Track UID #2 : ATU_00000002
ID : ATU_00000002
Bit depth : 24
Sampling rate : 48000
Track index : 2
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 2
Binaural render mode : Not Indicated (Mid)
Track UID #3 : ATU_00000003
ID : ATU_00000003
Bit depth : 24
Sampling rate : 48000
Track index : 3
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 3
Binaural render mode : Not Indicated (Mid)
Track UID #4 : ATU_00000004
ID : ATU_00000004
Bit depth : 24
Sampling rate : 48000
Track index : 4
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 4
Binaural render mode : Off
Track UID #5 : ATU_00000005
ID : ATU_00000005
Bit depth : 24
Sampling rate : 48000
Track index : 5
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 5
Binaural render mode : Not Indicated (Mid)
Track UID #6 : ATU_00000006
ID : ATU_00000006
Bit depth : 24
Sampling rate : 48000
Track index : 6
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 6
Binaural render mode : Not Indicated (Mid)
Track UID #7 : ATU_00000007
ID : ATU_00000007
Bit depth : 24
Sampling rate : 48000
Track index : 7
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 7
Binaural render mode : Not Indicated (Mid)
Track UID #8 : ATU_00000008
ID : ATU_00000008
Bit depth : 24
Sampling rate : 48000
Track index : 8
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 8
Binaural render mode : Not Indicated (Mid)
Track UID #9 : ATU_00000009
ID : ATU_00000009
Bit depth : 24
Sampling rate : 48000
Track index : 9
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 9
Binaural render mode : Not Indicated (Mid)
Track UID #10 : ATU_0000000a
ID : ATU_0000000a
Bit depth : 24
Sampling rate : 48000
Track index : 10
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 10
Binaural render mode : Not Indicated (Mid)
Track format #1 : PCM_RoomCentricLeft
ID : AT_00011001_01
Title : PCM_RoomCentricLeft
Format definition : PCM
Stream format #s : 1
Track format #2 : PCM_RoomCentricRight
ID : AT_00011002_01
Title : PCM_RoomCentricRight
Format definition : PCM
Stream format #s : 2
Track format #3 : PCM_RoomCentricCenter
ID : AT_00011003_01
Title : PCM_RoomCentricCenter
Format definition : PCM
Stream format #s : 3
Track format #4 : PCM_RoomCentricLFE
ID : AT_00011004_01
Title : PCM_RoomCentricLFE
Format definition : PCM
Stream format #s : 4
Track format #5 : PCM_RoomCentricLeftSideSurround
ID : AT_00011005_01
Title : PCM_RoomCentricLeftSideSurround
Format definition : PCM
Stream format #s : 5
Track format #6 : PCM_RoomCentricRightSideSurround
ID : AT_00011006_01
Title : PCM_RoomCentricRightSideSurround
Format definition : PCM
Stream format #s : 6
Track format #7 : PCM_RoomCentricLeftRearSurround
ID : AT_00011007_01
Title : PCM_RoomCentricLeftRearSurround
Format definition : PCM
Stream format #s : 7
Track format #8 : PCM_RoomCentricRightRearSurround
ID : AT_00011008_01
Title : PCM_RoomCentricRightRearSurround
Format definition : PCM
Stream format #s : 8
Track format #9 : PCM_RoomCentricLeftTopSurround
ID : AT_00011009_01
Title : PCM_RoomCentricLeftTopSurround
Format definition : PCM
Stream format #s : 9
Track format #10 : PCM_RoomCentricRightTopSurround
ID : AT_0001100a_01
Title : PCM_RoomCentricRightTopSurround
Format definition : PCM
Stream format #s : 10
Stream format #1 : PCM_RoomCentricLeft
ID : AS_00011001
Title : PCM_RoomCentricLeft
Format : PCM
Channel format #s : 1
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 1
Stream format #2 : PCM_RoomCentricRight
ID : AS_00011002
Title : PCM_RoomCentricRight
Format : PCM
Channel format #s : 2
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 2
Stream format #3 : PCM_RoomCentricCenter
ID : AS_00011003
Title : PCM_RoomCentricCenter
Format : PCM
Channel format #s : 3
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 3
Stream format #4 : PCM_RoomCentricLFE
ID : AS_00011004
Title : PCM_RoomCentricLFE
Format : PCM
Channel format #s : 4
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 4
Stream format #5 : PCM_RoomCentricLeftSideSurround
ID : AS_00011005
Title : PCM_RoomCentricLeftSideSurround
Format : PCM
Channel format #s : 5
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 5
Stream format #6 : PCM_RoomCentricRightSideSurround
ID : AS_00011006
Title : PCM_RoomCentricRightSideSurround
Format : PCM
Channel format #s : 6
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 6
Stream format #7 : PCM_RoomCentricLeftRearSurround
ID : AS_00011007
Title : PCM_RoomCentricLeftRearSurround
Format : PCM
Channel format #s : 7
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 7
Stream format #8 : PCM_RoomCentricRightRearSurround
ID : AS_00011008
Title : PCM_RoomCentricRightRearSurround
Format : PCM
Channel format #s : 8
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 8
Stream format #9 : PCM_RoomCentricLeftTopSurround
ID : AS_00011009
Title : PCM_RoomCentricLeftTopSurround
Format : PCM
Channel format #s : 9
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 9
Stream format #10 : PCM_RoomCentricRightTopSurround
ID : AS_0001100a
Title : PCM_RoomCentricRightTopSurround
Format : PCM
Channel format #s : 10
Pack format #s : 1
Track format #s : 10
Transport #1 : Yes
Track index #1 : ATU_00000001
Track UID #s : 1
Track index #2 : ATU_00000002
Track UID #s : 2
Track index #3 : ATU_00000003
Track UID #s : 3
Track index #4 : ATU_00000004
Track UID #s : 4
Track index #5 : ATU_00000005
Track UID #s : 5
Track index #6 : ATU_00000006
Track UID #s : 6
Track index #7 : ATU_00000007
Track UID #s : 7
Track index #8 : ATU_00000008
Track UID #s : 8
Track index #9 : ATU_00000009
Track UID #s : 9
Track index #10 : ATU_0000000a
Track UID #s

 

[par4ken]

Not an accurate analogy as @sjcorne and others have clarified. Atmos meta data information adds elements (sounds) to the heights, as an example, but removes that same element from the bed. If there are no heights or no Atmos renderer ("decoder"), nothing is subtracted from the bed. You get all the intended elements regardless.

So my thought of getting the "height" tracks and creating a new mix by blending with the bottom (bed) tracks would not be such a good idea. If I understand correctly on decode the heights are fed to the height speakers while simultaneously subtracted from the bed.

One would have to subtract from the bed and then remix with the height tracks; rather pointless I guess, unless the bed mix was really screwed up and you needed to change/improve on it.

My first thought is why, wouldn't it be just as easy to just mix the discrete tracks together on playback. I suppose that with the "bed" containing all the information it would make things simpler for systems that don't use/require the heights!

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Pretty neat little app: Here is the output, and the post above indicates what I thought may be true, that I may need the Dolby Renderer. Looking at the details, I am guessing already that is the case. See below:

General
Complete name : D:\Media\Reviews\(***removed)\02 ((***removed) (ATMOS).wav
Format : Wave
Format settings : PcmWaveformat
File size : 620 MiB
Duration : 7 min 31 s
Overall bit rate mode : Constant
Overall bit rate : 11.5 Mb/s

Audio
Format : PCM
Format settings : Little / Signed
Codec ID : 1
Duration : 7 min 31 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 11.5 Mb/s
Channel(s) : 10 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth : 24 bits
Stream size : 620 MiB (100%)
Dolby Atmos metadata : Yes
Writing application : Dolby Atmos Album Assembler, Version 1.2.1
5.1 to 2.0 downmix : Lo/Ro w/o Phase 90
5.1 and 5.1.x downmix : Standard (Lo/Ro)
Associated video frame rate : 24.000 FPS
Trim mode : Automatic
Metadata format : ADM, Version 0
Metadata muxing mode : axml
ADM profile : Dolby Atmos Master, Version 1.......................

Wow... Many thanks.

Do you have access to an AppleTV 4K? I'd be interested to see if it knows what to do with this file.

 

[hi-res_edition]

Do you have access to an AppleTV 4K? I'd be interested to see if it knows what to do with this file.

Yes, I have the Apple TV 4K... but not sure at all how I would get a file over to it... that would be another learning curve! I use Windows 11 PC's on the same network, and I don't believe that little box has a USB port. I am going to try VLC and see what happens... but not expecting the real experience if anything at all. I am pretty sure that what I have received is the version that is used in the recording studios and I am simply not set up for that!

 

[par4ken]

Not an accurate analogy as @sjcorne and others have clarified. Atmos meta data information adds elements (sounds) to the heights, as an example, but removes that same element from the bed. If there are no heights or no Atmos renderer ("decoder"), nothing is subtracted from the bed. You get all the intended elements regardless.

How big is the "bed"? I would assume 5.1? Maybe 7.1? I doubt that it would be only 2.0. Back to the original question what about Atmos played in stereo? Not that I really care it's just that now I'm rather curious.