Dolby Atmos: a Bleak Shadow?

[Bill B]

really?

oh, such exquisite drama queenery!

we do still have some physical product after all, including but not only for some higher profile releases.

i see lossy streaming Atmos as far from a backward step but a wonderful addition to physical releases of Multichannel Music, which still trickle out on disc just as they always used to come out in dribs and drabs, before Atmos for Music became a thing, there would be the occasional new Surround Music release on SACD, DVD/Blu-ray, etc.

ok, The Beatles have decided to pull the plug on Atmos Blu-ray's for now and that is unfortunate but there's a lot more music in this world beyond The Beatles, so I'm not only thankful for but happy at what we are getting.

to me, Immersive Music streaming is an utterly amazing development in our hobby

the sheer amount of new Surround music released on a nigh-on daily basis, on Apple, Tidal, etc., is quite something, largely thanks to streaming

anyone who is so anti the development can pretty much get stuffed as far as i'm concerned because like it or not this is where we're at right now and it's not as if there's no hope, there's always the possibility the quality of streaming Atmos may well improve in future

above all it's a hell of a lot better than the virtually zilch new Surround Music we were getting circa 2009, when i first signed up to QQ in the "bad old days" when Quad was long dead, DTS CD had been and gone, DualDisc had flopped and SACD and DVD-A were pretty much on life support. it was either you hunt down and fork out a serious wodge for old out of print discs or it's tough titty you make do with your Stereo stuff. we've come a long way thanks to Atmos and streaming

 

[Bill B]

I agree. It seems to me we are getting as many multi-channel (5.1, quad or atmos) physical releases as we've ever had. Just because we aren't getting as many as we wish we were doesn't change that fact. Besides we want everything that we like released in MC, so we will never get everything we want.

As for the Beatles, they've closed the barn door after the cattle have gotten out. We have SPLHCB, The White Album, Abbey Road, and Let It Be all on physical disc with some form of MC mix. As far as I'm concerned, the albums that preceded these (perhaps with the exception of Revolver) really aren't as suited to a MC mixes anyway. So it is hard to get upset at the announcement that there won't be any more physical releases. Oh no!!!! I'll have to make do with the ones I already have... the horror,,,, the horror.

To me, these are the good old days!
Now where are those Carly quads

 

[Guy Robinson]

Isn't the ATMOS core on TIDAL stereo and on Apple 5.1? Maybe this could have something to do with it as I don't know what your receiver is doing to the ATMOS track when you don't have the presence speakers hooked up to it. Maybe it is playing only the core, not taking the ATMOS and downmixing it to 5.1.

 

[AYanguas]

Isn't the ATMOS core on TIDAL stereo and on Apple 5.1? Maybe this could have something to do with it as I don't know what your receiver is doing to the ATMOS track when you don't have the presence speakers hooked up to it. Maybe it is playing only the core, not taking the ATMOS and downmixing it to 5.1.

I think it works this way:

The TIDAL player app, if do not find Atmos capable (AVR) device it switches to the Stereo version of the song.
It is "The Stereo mix", apart from the Atmos mix, wich the TIDAL server provides alternatively. It is not the core or any downmixing of the Atmos mix.
That's why you cannot get from TIDAL the 5.1 DD+ with Atmos if your system has 5.1 speakers (no Atmos)

Apple does not do that, and then you can play the 5.1 from the Atmos mix in a non-Atmos system.

 

[MidiMagic]

I agree. It seems to me we are getting as many multi-channel (5.1, quad or atmos) physical releases as we've ever had. Just because we aren't getting as many as we wish we were doesn't change that fact. Besides we want everything that we like released in MC, so we will never get everything we want.

As for the Beatles, they've closed the barn door after the cattle have gotten out. We have SPLHCB, The White Album, Abbey Road, and Let It Be all on physical disc with some form of MC mix. As far as I'm concerned, the albums that preceded these (perhaps with the exception of Revolver) really aren't as suited to a MC mixes anyway. So it is hard to get upset at the announcement that there won't be any more physical releases. Oh no!!!! I'll have to make do with the ones I already have... the horror,,,, the horror.

To me, these are the good old days!
Now where are those Carly quads

The albums before Revolver were made by bouncing tracks on 2 and 3 channel recorders, so there are no individual tracks to use. The stereo is not very good.

 

[mrcond]

Also, I have certainly seen complaints on this forum about mediocre/'fake' surround offerings in Atmos. I guess I'm wondering if these are more a Tidal thing than an AM thing, because so far that's been my limited experience.

If I recall, many tracks previously available on Apple Music previously as spatial audio have since been removed, presumably because Apple doesn’t allow fake upmixes. And I think Taxi was one of those, for example. So it seems Apple does a better job of policing against the fakes than Tidal does. Again, this is all from my recollection.

 

[Guy Robinson]

I think it works this way:

The TIDAL player app, if do not find Atmos capable (AVR) device it switches to the Stereo version of the song.
It is "The Stereo mix", apart from the Atmos mix, wich the TIDAL server provides alternatively. It is not the core or any downmixing of the Atmos mix.
That's why you cannot get from TIDAL the 5.1 DD+ with Atmos if your system has 5.1 speakers (no Atmos)

Apple does not do that, and then you can play the 5.1 from the Atmos mix in a non-Atmos system.

That all makes sense and the outcome from your scenario is the same as the result from mine. My point is, if the receiver is able to handshake with the Dolby Atmos what is the receiver actually doing with it when you don't have presence speakers attached. Some of this may be how you have set-up the receiver in it's Settings. Over the past few weeks I have purchased a new receiver capable of Dolby Atmos and of course for disc based music it indicates that the output is 7.1 as I don't have presence speakers attached and probably never will. I am not sure whether it is folding in the ATMOS to 7.1 or whether it is just using the 7.1 core. I'm not even sure if there is a difference in these 2 possible outcomes, but I suspect that there is not. I don't have Apple Music at the moment so I am not sure what the receiver would do with that source.

 

[AYanguas]

Guy Robinson said:
That all makes sense and the outcome from your scenario is the same as the result from mine. My point is, if the receiver is able to handshake with the Dolby Atmos what is the receiver actually doing with it when you don't have presence speakers attached. Some of this may be how you have set-up the receiver in it's Settings. Over the past few weeks I have purchased a new receiver capable of Dolby Atmos and of course for disc based music it indicates that the output is 7.1 as I don't have presence speakers attached and probably never will. I am not sure whether it is folding in the ATMOS to 7.1 or whether it is just using the 7.1 core. I'm not even sure if there is a difference in these 2 possible outcomes, but I suspect that there is not. I don't have Apple Music at the moment so I am not sure what the receiver would do with that source.


In my second House, with a 5.1 (non atmos) AVR, I did connect the HDFury Vertex 2 to present the FireTV an EDID of full audio capability. Then the TIDAL app on the FireTV did actually supplied the Atmos version that was played in the AVR as the DD+ 5.1.

In my Denon, "Atmos" is not recognized by the AVR when there are only 5.1 speakers configured. But it detects "Atmos" when I configure 7.1 speakers (without heights).

With your new AVR, if "Atmos" is not recognized it will play the substream 7.1 that is included in the TrueHD file. That substream is the "downmix" of the Atmos mix that is generated by the production tool that generates the TrueHD file track. Your AVR would not "downmix" from Atmos, but just will play the mch 7.1 that it finds.

As said in other posts, that automatic Atmos "downmix" that is generated at the production phase, could be satisfactory for some or not, compared with a Full Atmos mix reproduction (7.1.4 or more). Then the addittional 5.1 mix that some mixers/producers add to the Blu-ray would cover for that.

 

[Guy Robinson]

7.1 always was and always will be adequate for me. Of course the 4 subwoofers also adds to the overall enjoyment as well.

 

[ssully]

Isn't the ATMOS core on TIDAL stereo and on Apple 5.1? Maybe this could have something to do with it as I don't know what your receiver is doing to the ATMOS track when you don't have the presence speakers hooked up to it. Maybe it is playing only the core, not taking the ATMOS and downmixing it to 5.1.

The tracks I'm talking about all trigger the ATMOS indicator in my AVR. I typically find these tracks on Atmos playlists.

I know there are also stereo versions of Atmos tracks on Tidal and Apple Music but they show as...stereo, when I play them.

(What's really quite bad on both services is metadata. To the degree that the Atmos mix of 'When Doves Cry' shows an image of the 1999 Super Deluxe Edition. Meanwhile offering four or five stereo versions from various editions of Purple Rain, using the correct cover art.)

(It's also kind of absurd that there is no straightforward way to search for Atmos mixes on either service. And I have yet to figure out how to even make a playlist work in Tidal. In AM I can at least plop tracks onto my 'favorites' list)

In my Denon, "Atmos" is not recognized by the AVR when there are only 5.1 speakers configured. But it detects "Atmos" when I configure 7.1 speakers (without heights).

This is not my experience. My Atmos-ready Denon , which btw is no spring chicken, is configured for 5.2 (2 subwoofers), not 7.1,and it recognizes AM and Tidal Atmos tracks and renders them as downmixes. (Leaving aside the Tidal cases that seem to be 'fake' Atmos mixes)

 

[mkt]

(What's really quite bad on both services is metadata. To the degree that the Atmos mix of 'When Doves Cry' shows an image of the 1999 Super Deluxe Edition. Meanwhile offering four or five stereo versions from various editions of Purple Rain, using the correct cover art.)

(It's also kind of absurd that there is no straightforward way to search for Atmos mixes on either service. And I have yet to figure out how to even make a playlist work in Tidal. In AM I can at least plop tracks onto my 'favorites' list)

Amen

 

[ssully]

I’d start by listening to the same songs on both services before coming to any conclusions.

doing this (with "I Feel Love" from the Donna Summer comp I Remember Yesterday) points up another AM vs Tidal difference I noticed: the same Atmos mix is MUCH lower in overall level in Tidal than AM. Like 10 dB or more .

 

[AYanguas]

doing this (with "I Feel Love" from the Donna Summer comp I Remember Yesterday) points up another AM vs Tidal difference I noticed: the same Atmos mix is MUCH lower in overall level in Tidal than AM. Like 10 dB or more .

This has been said is due to the Dolby "dialnorm" metadata value that makes Tidal sounds lower, and does not seem to affect AM so much (or nothing?).

Although this is an annoying feature of Tidal, when I did A-B comparisons with the same song, switching between Fire TV and Apple TV AVR inputs, increasing the TIDAL volume, to match as much as possible with AM, It sounded almost identical to me in both platforms.

At least Tidal will reduce the HIFI-PLUS price to half.

 

[ssully]

This has been said is due to the Dolby "dialnorm" metadata value that makes Tidal sounds lower, and does not seem to affect AM so much (or nothing?).

Although this is an annoying feature of Tidal, when I did A-B comparisons with the same song, switching between Fire TV and Apple TV AVR inputs, increasing the TIDAL volume, to match as much as possible with AM, It sounded almost identical to me in both platforms.

yes, it's the same mix, just lower in level.

 

[JulesRules]

As far as I'm concerned, the albums that preceded these (perhaps with the exception of Revolver) really aren't as suited to a MC mixes anyway.

What about Magical Mystery Tour and the various odds'n'ends from the same period (the new tracks from Yellow Submarine in particular).

 

[Bill B]

What about Magical Mystery Tour and the various odds'n'ends from the same period (the new tracks from Yellow Submarine in particular).

Well there is a DVD with 5.1 mixes for YS (probably lossy) and at least Penny Lane and Strawberry fields showed up on SPLHCB. My point was that the core albums after Revolver have all been released. I thought about MMT and YS when I wrote that comment (as well as Past Masters material) but figured my point was still valid, but I should have known someone would point out the obvious. So if you want to get technical, yeah there are some worthy songs that would sound great in surround that haven't been released.