Harman Kardon AVR 247 Technical Questions / Advice

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The Bright Side

The Bright Side

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
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Jun 10, 2010
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Montreal, CA
Hey guys, I bought some Technics speakers for my surround sound system the other day and now I think my Samsung HW-C560S receiver is holding those babies back. They don't have very much bass even when I set the fronts to "Large", so right now, I have the setting in the receiver as "Small" and the crossover at 200 Hz, and the active subwoofer does all the bass.

It sounds nice, but I think I can do better and, well, while I'm already upgrading…

To bring out the best in the Technics speakers, I am looking at the Harman Kardon AVR 247 receiver:
http://montreal.fr.craigslist.ca/ele/3748481205.html

I have some (possibly nooby) questions about it and hope those of you who have experience with the receiver may help me.

This AVS thread suggests the HK AVR 247 has the dreaded LFE bug. Is that still the case today? (haven't read the whole thread)

I need to double-check when I get home tonight, but I am pretty sure my speakers are all 6 Ohm speakers. But the back of the AVR 247 clearly says "8 Ohms". What problems may I run into if I hook up the 6 Ohm speakers? Will it affect sound quality? Cause heat? Explosions? A drought? This post suggests it will be fine, but since I don't know much about the technicalities, I'd like to know your thoughts.

Can I play back SACDs as well as hi-res Blu Ray sound from my Oppo BPD-83 when hooked up to this receiver via HDMI?

How does this receiver handle HDMI/digital handshake? My current one has 20 seconds of dropouts while it synchronizes every time I switch to a digital connection (worst over HDMI).

On the back of the receiver, I see a 6 "Pre-Out" connectors (bottom left). Are these specifically for speakers that have their own amplifiers? Is that where I would connect my active (powered) subwoofer?

Hope you can help me, looking forward to your replies. Thanks in advance!
 
The Bright Side said:
Hey guys, I bought some Technics speakers for my surround sound system the other day and now I think my Samsung HW-C560S receiver is holding those babies back. They don't have very much bass even when I set the fronts to "Large", so right now, I have the setting in the receiver as "Small" and the crossover at 200 Hz, and the active subwoofer does all the bass.

It sounds nice, but I think I can do better and, well, while I'm already upgrading…

To bring out the best in the Technics speakers, I am looking at the Harman Kardon AVR 247 receiver:
http://montreal.fr.craigslist.ca/ele/3748481205.html

I have some (possibly nooby) questions about it and hope those of you who have experience with the receiver may help me.

This AVS thread suggests the HK AVR 247 has the dreaded LFE bug. Is that still the case today? (haven't read the whole thread)

I need to double-check when I get home tonight, but I am pretty sure my speakers are all 6 Ohm speakers. But the back of the AVR 247 clearly says "8 Ohms". What problems may I run into if I hook up the 6 Ohm speakers? Will it affect sound quality? Cause heat? Explosions? A drought? This post suggests it will be fine, but since I don't know much about the technicalities, I'd like to know your thoughts.

Can I play back SACDs as well as hi-res Blu Ray sound from my Oppo BPD-83 when hooked up to this receiver via HDMI?

How does this receiver handle HDMI/digital handshake? My current one has 20 seconds of dropouts while it synchronizes every time I switch to a digital connection (worst over HDMI).

On the back of the receiver, I see a 6 "Pre-Out" connectors (bottom left). Are these specifically for speakers that have their own amplifiers? Is that where I would connect my active (powered) subwoofer?

Hope you can help me, looking forward to your replies. Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

That's a really high crossover, even mini-speakers shouldn't need to be crossed over that high. And those speakers look like they have substantial woofers and at the very least should work w/ the standard 80hz crossover. Something else seems to be going on, if your system sounds better crossed over at 200 hz than w/ those speakers set to large. I'd suggest checking those speakers on a friend's receiver to see how they sound on a known quantity.
 
I'll check them on the stereo system in our living room tonight, and on the surround receiver my downstairs neighbour has. I do think the speakers are fine and it's the receiver that has the problems. I remember I had terrible stereo sound from that receiver when I hooked up the speakers from the living room about a year ago which sound great in the living room.

I'm curious as to whether my theory will hold up. Will be interesting!
 
ProgRules said:
That's a really high crossover, even mini-speakers shouldn't need to be crossed over that high. And those speakers look like they have substantial woofers and at the very least should work w/ the standard 80hz crossover. Something else seems to be going on, if your system sounds better crossed over at 200 hz than w/ those speakers set to large. I'd suggest checking those speakers on a friend's receiver to see how they sound on a known quantity.
Click to expand...

absolutely, way too high. the worst thing for me though about that sort of X-over (apart from the Technics being more 'refined' with bass than the Aiwa sub) would be the easily detectable localisation of bass.. doesn't all the low and lower-mid bass sound like its coming from the sub and not from the stereo pair, Matthias? yucky! :p
 
fredblue said:
absolutely, way too high. the worst thing for me though about that sort of X-over (apart from the Technics being more 'refined' with bass than the Aiwa sub) would be the easily detectable localisation of bass.. doesn't all the low and lower-mid bass sound like its coming from the sub and not from the stereo pair, Matthias? yucky! :p
Click to expand...

You'd think so, wouldn't you? Sounds pretty good though.

I hooked the speakers up to the stereo system in the living room and they sounded great. Very nice bass, though only after I switched on the sound system's built-in bass boost function. It's a cheap all-in-one system, but it made the speakers sound much better than my receiver does.

(that said, the system's own speakers have even more bass on it than mine - perhaps because its components are tuned to work together?)

Gotta try my downstairs neighbour's 5.1 receiver tomorrow night, didn't catch him tonight.
 
The Bright Side said:
.......
On the back of the receiver, I see a 6 "Pre-Out" connectors (bottom left). Are these specifically for speakers that have their own amplifiers? Is that where I would connect my active (powered) subwoofer?

Hope you can help me, looking forward to your replies. Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

In terms of the pre-out connectors - yes thats where you connect your sub....

How is your sub connected at the moment if you don't use the pre-out?

The other pre-outs are used if you use a power amp(s) for amplification of other channels rather than the "integrated" amplifier in your reciever..

I just got a 3 channel power amp that I connect via the pre-outs.... its driving my front channels really nicely...:phones
 
The Bright Side said:
You'd think so, wouldn't you? Sounds pretty good though.

I hooked the speakers up to the stereo system in the living room and they sounded great. Very nice bass, though only after I switched on the sound system's built-in bass boost function. It's a cheap all-in-one system, but it made the speakers sound much better than my receiver does.

(that said, the system's own speakers have even more bass on it than mine - perhaps because its components are tuned to work together?)

Gotta try my downstairs neighbour's 5.1 receiver tomorrow night, didn't catch him tonight.
Click to expand...

sounds like those Technics need power to get their woofers going..!!

you could get a used high-current stereo amp (Rotel, NAD) and use the pre-outs to really give the Technics some welly (much more genuine power than any budget or mid priced receiver, a Rotel amp rated at 30 w/p/c will kick the ass of a common or garden AVR rated 80 w/p/c., imho).
 
Hey Mike, I see somebody can't wait for the Kinobe SACD... :)

Well my current receiver has one designated "Subwoofer" RCA connector. I just wasn't sure if "Pre-Amp" and that "Subwoofer" connector are the same thing.

Unfortunately, my receiver has no other specifically labelled "Pre-Amp" connectors, just speaker connectors like this:
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/images/G13930B.jpg

Very good idea about getting a dedicated stereo amp for the Technics. But would it work when connected to the speaker outputs? Are they meant to be used that way? I guess I could find a speaker-to-RCA cable?

In fact, my subwoofer has this on the back:
http://www.knowingme.org/aiwa-sub.jpg

So as I mentioned, right now I have one RCA cable going from the receiver's Subwoofer Out to the sub's Input 1. I haven't figured out what the "Phase" switch does, but I leave it at "Normal".

Hyyyyypothetically... If I run speaker wires from the receiver to the sub's Input 2, and then connect the Technics to the sub's Speaker Out - the sub will act as my pre-amp, correct? It does have 3 buttons on the front where I can select the cutoff frequencies (I think 60, 80, 120).

Questions, questions. So to sum up:

- Can I connect a pre-amp to my receiver's speaker outputs (with speaker-to-RCA cables, if those exist)?
- Is any regular stereo amplifier also a "pre-amp" if I choose to make it one, or do I need to get an actual pre-amp?
- Can I use my subwoofer as a pre-amp as described above? (not the ideal solution, I know, cos it only has 42 watts)

Thanks guys, you can see these are noob questions, but I'm learning a great deal here and I truly appreciate your input. :)
 
no you can't connect anything but speakers to the speaker connections. you can wire some subs across the Fronts (i'e in with the Main L&R) but I doubt the Aiwa has the facility.

(just as an example my old REL sub has a Neutrik Speakon connector, with 3 wires at the other end, one wire for each of the +ive speaker terminals and 1 for one of the -ive connections, which allows you to connect the sub at high level to the Front L&R connections if the amp or AVR you're using lacks a dedicated LFE out.)

an integrated amplifier can act as a power amp, a receiver can only act as a pre-amp if it had pre-outs.

the subs a sub not a pre-amp.

also have you tried experimenting with those 60/80/120 buttons on the sub? they're your sub's own pass filter and should be set to 120hz.

(I can't go into detail right now I'm out at the moment but suffice to say DON'T try any of those things! You'll blow yourself or the equipment up! I'll PM you tonight.).
 
Last edited:
I see your AVR has separate LFE out (phono/RCA) and then a set of "subwoofer" spring clip speaker connections.

is there a setting to choose between the two types of connection?

the plot thickens..!
 
fredblue said:
I see your AVR has separate LFE out (phono/RCA) and then a set of "subwoofer" spring clip speaker connections.

is there a setting to choose between the two types of connection?

the plot thickens..!
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input. Yeah, I did some research in the meantime and found much of what you wrote. I found this very interesting:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=162573

I can get a high-level to RCA adaptor for 7 bucks on amazon.ca (weirdly enough, it converts from speaker wire to FEMALE RCA, which makes no sense at all, but hey). If I understood all this correctly, with those adaptors, I could hook up an extra amplifier - e.g. a really nice stereo amp - to the speaker-out from the receiver.

The receiver would then basically be like any old CD player I connect to the stereo amp.

About the sub: the speaker-out is specifically for the passive subwoofer that came with the system, while the RCA out is intended for a powered subwoofer such as the AIWA I'm using. No setting to address them specifically.

And yeah, I'm using the sub's own crossover buttons depending on the title I'm listening to. For the 3 Doors Down SACD, I need to dial back the bass, while the early Bob Dylan SACDs need more.
 
The Bright Side said:
Thanks for your input. Yeah, I did some research in the meantime and found much of what you wrote. I found this very interesting:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=162573

I can get a high-level to RCA adaptor for 7 bucks on amazon.ca (weirdly enough, it converts from speaker wire to FEMALE RCA, which makes no sense at all, but hey). If I understood all this correctly, with those adaptors, I could hook up an extra amplifier - e.g. a really nice stereo amp - to the speaker-out from the receiver.

The receiver would then basically be like any old CD player I connect to the stereo amp.

About the sub: the speaker-out is specifically for the passive subwoofer that came with the system, while the RCA out is intended for a powered subwoofer such as the AIWA I'm using. No setting to address them specifically.

And yeah, I'm using the sub's own crossover buttons depending on the title I'm listening to. For the 3 Doors Down SACD, I need to dial back the bass, while the early Bob Dylan SACDs need more.
Click to expand...

you're welcome as ever :) the adapters, well, kinda interesting.. I'd be a bit iffy about connecting any line level gear to speaker connections but if you're confident go for it! the one complication using an external amp (whether integrated or power amp, though its trickier with integrated) is setting the levels correctly within a 5.1 setup where the AVR is powering the centre & rears.. some external amps you'll need to set their own volume level to 12 o'clock, others only 9 o'clock, others all the way to MAX, depending on the amp's own gain.

right, so the "subwoofer" spring clip connectors are at high level for the passive and the LFE phono out is the usual low-passed jobby for a powered sub, all as it should be, that clears that up.

so for Dylan you're setting the sub to crossover at say 120 and the 3 Doors' at what, 60? maybe try everything at 80hz, adjust the EQ on your Front L&R to give them a bass and mid-bass boost and see what happens..?
 
The Bright Side said:
Thanks for your input. Yeah, I did some research in the meantime and found much of what you wrote. I found this very interesting:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=162573

I can get a high-level to RCA adaptor for 7 bucks on amazon.ca (weirdly enough, it converts from speaker wire to FEMALE RCA, which makes no sense at all, but hey). If I understood all this correctly, with those adaptors, I could hook up an extra amplifier - e.g. a really nice stereo amp - to the speaker-out from the receiver.

The receiver would then basically be like any old CD player I connect to the stereo amp.

About the sub: the speaker-out is specifically for the passive subwoofer that came with the system, while the RCA out is intended for a powered subwoofer such as the AIWA I'm using. No setting to address them specifically.

And yeah, I'm using the sub's own crossover buttons depending on the title I'm listening to. For the 3 Doors Down SACD, I need to dial back the bass, while the early Bob Dylan SACDs need more.
Click to expand...

I would have thought there'd be a significant possibility of introducing noise going from speaker level to line level, but a quick perusal of that thread seems to indicate otherwise, by posters who seem to be more knowledgeable than I. It still seems like a wacky solution to me and also, don't understand why you're looking at a solution that would give you only 2 channel capabilities when your original question concerned a multi-channel receiver. It seems to me that it would be just as inexpensive to get a decent MCH AVR as it would be to get a decent stereo amp and the AVR would allow you to have surround sound in the future.

Also, I would still be leery of those speakers if the ones that came with a HTIB setup sound better. I'm also confused as to how your Technics sounded better crossed over at 200 hz, when you had the sub's filter engaged (unless it is actually used only for the speaker level inputs). Otherwise, if your mains are crossed over at 200 hz in the receiver and your subs hi-pass is set to 120, you're getting very little musical info in that 120-200 hz region- the receiver is sending everything below 200 hz to the sub, but the sub is filtering out everything above 120 (which would explain why you're not hearing much localization of the bass, which you definitely would w/ just the single 200 hz crossover). You might want to see how your neighbor's speakers sound on your receiver, if he'll let you do that and see if he notices a significant difference as to how they sound w/ his AVR/amp. Unless your receiver is way under-powered, I can't imagine why they would have a significant effect on the bass your speakers put out- unless maybe it's an impedance problem? Do you know the rating of your Technics (if they're 4 ohms, maybe that's the problem)???
 
I already have the front EQ set to max bass and it's still pretty bad :-/ But yeah, I have the crossover in the receiver at 150 now and the subwoofer mostly at 80 and I get decent sound.

I think I'll give a stereo amp with the speaker-to-line converters a try to power the Technics speakers. Will be a while though until I get around to it...
 
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