Harman Kardon AVR 247 Technical Questions / Advice

[The Bright Side]

I would have thought there'd be a significant possibility of introducing noise going from speaker level to line level, but a quick perusal of that thread seems to indicate otherwise, by posters who seem to be more knowledgeable than I. It still seems like a wacky solution to me and also, don't understand why you're looking at a solution that would give you only 2 channel capabilities when your original question concerned a multi-channel receiver. It seems to me that it would be just as inexpensive to get a decent MCH AVR as it would be to get a decent stereo amp and the AVR would allow you to have surround sound in the future.

Also, I would still be leery of those speakers if the ones that came with a HTIB setup sound better. I'm also confused as to how your Technics sounded better crossed over at 200 hz, when you had the sub's filter engaged (unless it is actually used only for the speaker level inputs). Otherwise, if your mains are crossed over at 200 hz in the receiver and your subs hi-pass is set to 120, you're getting very little musical info in that 120-200 hz region- the receiver is sending everything below 200 hz to the sub, but the sub is filtering out everything above 120 (which would explain why you're not hearing much localization of the bass, which you definitely would w/ just the single 200 hz crossover). You might want to see how your neighbor's speakers sound on your receiver, if he'll let you do that and see if he notices a significant difference as to how they sound w/ his AVR/amp. Unless your receiver is way under-powered, I can't imagine why they would have a significant effect on the bass your speakers put out- unless maybe it's an impedance problem? Do you know the rating of your Technics (if they're 4 ohms, maybe that's the problem)???

Well I'm doing all this using cheap used old equipment... I'd get an old stereo amp for 15 bucks or so, and the speaker-to-line converters for 7 dollars each.

The idea is:

- Center, Surround L/R: connected to receiver's high-level speaker connectors. Passive.
- Sub: AIWA, connected to receiver's low-level RCA out. Active.
- Stereo amplifier: connected to receiver's high-level speaker connectors with high-to-low speaker-to-RCA converters.
- Front L/R: connected to stereo amp

That setup should give me multichannel with great sound from the front L/R, which, connected directly to the receiver, sound bad. But you're right, a proper solution would be to just get a great 5.1 receiver. I fully intend to once I can afford it.

About the speakers, I can say:

- The Technics sound great on the in-a-box system in the living room, shitty on my receiver
- The living room speakers sound great on the in-a-box-system in the living room (a bit better than Technics), shitty on my receiver

The Technics didn't sound any better or worse when crossed over at 200. I am 99% certain that the receiver is just very weak, and to get better bass, I need to feed it to the powered subwoofer which does its own amplification.

The receiver has been giving me weird behaviours ever since I bought it. This is how it worked when I was still using the passive speakers it came with (small center/surround/fronts, passive sub):

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...ct-for-some-Titles-Crap-for-Others&highlight=

All my speakers are 8 Ohm.

 

[The Bright Side]

The Technics didn't sound any better or worse when crossed over at 200.

Easy breakdown:

• Fronts set as "Small" in receiver, crossover at 200 Hz: very weak bass in Technics, strong bass from subwoofer
• Fronts set at "Large" in receiver, crossover at 80 Hz: weak bass in Technics, weak bass in Subwoofer (turns itself off e.g. when playing Bob Dylan because too little info reaches it)

When I still had the passive subwoofer and the small front speakers, it was as follows:

• Front set as "Small" in receiver, crossover at 200 Hz: sub ranging from thundering (e.g. Peter Gabriel - Play or stereo sources played back using Ubuntu's/sound card's 5.1 option) to virtually non-existent (Bob Dylan)
• Front set as "Large" in receiver, crossover at 80 Hz: sub ranging from okay (e.g. Peter Gabriel - Play or stereo-to-5.1 from sound card) to absolutely and utterly non-existent (Bob Dylan)

 

[ProgRules]

Well I'm doing all this using cheap used old equipment... I'd get an old stereo amp for 15 bucks or so, and the speaker-to-line converters for 7 dollars each.

The idea is:

- Center, Surround L/R: connected to receiver's high-level speaker connectors. Passive.
- Sub: AIWA, connected to receiver's low-level RCA out. Active.
- Stereo amplifier: connected to receiver's high-level speaker connectors with high-to-low speaker-to-RCA converters.
- Front L/R: connected to stereo amp

That setup should give me multichannel with great sound from the front L/R, which, connected directly to the receiver, sound bad. But you're right, a proper solution would be to just get a great 5.1 receiver. I fully intend to once I can afford it.

About the speakers, I can say:

- The Technics sound great on the in-a-box system in the living room, shitty on my receiver
- The living room speakers sound great on the in-a-box-system in the living room (a bit better than Technics), shitty on my receiver

The Technics didn't sound any better or worse when crossed over at 200. I am 99% certain that the receiver is just very weak, and to get better bass, I need to feed it to the powered subwoofer which does its own amplification.

The receiver has been giving me weird behaviours ever since I bought it. This is how it worked when I was still using the passive speakers it came with (small center/surround/fronts, passive sub):

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...ct-for-some-Titles-Crap-for-Others&highlight=

All my speakers are 8 Ohm.

OK, the above is good evidence that the receiver is indeed the problem. If you can get a good stereo amp for $15, then that does sound like a good, inexpensive solution. Of course, you're still left driving center and surround with that receiver; hopefully your movie watching is done on your other system, as the center channel is critical for movies. If the center is so weak on your wacky receiver, you can always take it out and use a phantom center, once you've got your mains going strong. Good luck! Hope it all works out.

 

[0tto]

The Bright Side

can't advice you on HK receiver but generally speaking, i guess you would be better with this receiver,
than with your present experiments trying to utilize Samsung receiver paired with old stereo amp.
take a look at long run - eventually you will buy decent receiver but longer you will experimenting - more
funds you'll lose, ($15, then $7, then another $20 and so on). finally all this will go into garbage bin but
you were already pushed back the time, which you could use for enjoyment from decent sound.
have you checked out http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/
there you may find good deal at your location.

 

[fredblue]

Easy breakdown:

• Fronts set as "Small" in receiver, crossover at 200 Hz: very weak bass in Technics, strong bass from subwoofer
• Fronts set at "Large" in receiver, crossover at 80 Hz: weak bass in Technics, weak bass in Subwoofer (turns itself off e.g. when playing Bob Dylan because too little info reaches it)

When I still had the passive subwoofer and the small front speakers, it was as follows:

• Front set as "Small" in receiver, crossover at 200 Hz: sub ranging from thundering (e.g. Peter Gabriel - Play or stereo sources played back using Ubuntu's/sound card's 5.1 option) to virtually non-existent (Bob Dylan)
• Front set as "Large" in receiver, crossover at 80 Hz: sub ranging from okay (e.g. Peter Gabriel - Play or stereo-to-5.1 from sound card) to absolutely and utterly non-existent (Bob Dylan)

have you tried Mains set to "Small" with X-over @80hz in the AVR since connecting up your Technics speakers & Aiwa sub?

 

[The Bright Side]

I went through some more options and thanks to Otto, I eventually the Yamaha RX-661 receiver on Canuck Audio Mart:
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649060305-yamaha_rxv661_receiver/

The guy is offering to send it to me for 170 bucks, shipping included. Still waiting for his final response, but from what I've read about this receiver, it's a pretty sweet deal even without the tone mic and remote battery cover. Even if I'm not completely happy with the sound, I can then get a pre-amp for that receiver. Only thing that bugs me is that I can't take it back to Europe with me once I decide to move on. But so be it.

 

[The Bright Side]

Hey guys, I got the Yamaha RX-V661 today. The sound from the Oppo BDP-83 through HDMI is nothing short of spectacular. The sound from the Creative Labs SB X-Fi Surround 5.1 sound card through the analogue Multi-Ch inputs is absolutely horrible. There is no bass at all. I mean none. The sub automatically goes into standby and no bass at all comes from the front speakers. I only hear the high-frequency and mid-range speakers in the fronts.

I went through every last settings in the menus. I tried everything. I only get some bass when I crank up the LFE volume to the max in the receiver's menus. My cheap previous receiver is much better. It doesn't seem to power the front L/R speakers enough, but at least it delivers LFE signals to the sub when I use the analogue Multi-Ch inputs. Pretty much all the fancy listening modes and sound settings are disabled when you use the analogue Multi-Ch inputs. I can't even set the bass and treble for the fronts.

Since I want to play video games and listen to 5.1 music from my PC, I guess I'll sell the Yamaha again. :-/

Just wanted to give you an update.

 

[fredblue]

Hey guys, I got the Yamaha RX-V661 today. The sound from the Oppo BDP-83 through HDMI is nothing short of spectacular. The sound from the Creative Labs SB X-Fi Surround 5.1 sound card through the analogue Multi-Ch inputs is absolutely horrible. There is no bass at all. I mean none. The sub automatically goes into standby and no bass at all comes from the front speakers. I only hear the high-frequency and mid-range speakers in the fronts.

I went through every last settings in the menus. I tried everything. I only get some bass when I crank up the LFE volume to the max in the receiver's menus. My cheap previous receiver is much better. It doesn't seem to power the front L/R speakers enough, but at least it delivers LFE signals to the sub when I use the analogue Multi-Ch inputs. Pretty much all the fancy listening modes and sound settings are disabled when you use the analogue Multi-Ch inputs. I can't even set the bass and treble for the fronts.

Since I want to play video games and listen to 5.1 music from my PC, I guess I'll sell the Yamaha again. :-/

Just wanted to give you an update.

have you tried connecting via Digital/Optical Out?

You'll get EQ and (more importantly for your speakers) Bass Management that way.

Your Yammy shuts off all EQ and Bass Management when receiving a signal at the MultiCh analogue In's

 

[fredblue]

you'll only get DD & DTS in 5.1 via Optical though, of course.

 

[fredblue]

I meant to add, you'll need to use some pre-amp & Bass Management settings on your PC when you go analogue out (a bit like the "Speaker Distance/Size" Menu's on your Oppo).

what options do you have on your PC/ Sound Card itself? (Sorry I'm a Mac guy).

 

[fredblue]

In the X-Fi's DataSheet, it mentions a "Flexible Mixer Control"...

• Selectable input source or mixing of various audio sources for recording
• Adjustable master volume control
• Separate bass and treble control
• Front and rear balance control
• Muting, soloing and panning control for
mixer sources

Have you gone into that yet and changed any settings?

Essentially, you have to set all the Tone/EQ & Balance from within your PC when you go MultiCh Analogue with your Yammy.

 

[fredblue]

your SoundCard's DataSheet goes on to say..

- Bass redirection: enhances bass output to subwoofer for small satellite speaker systems,
- Crossover bass frequency (10-200 Hz): adjustable to standalone subwoofer units for desired bass level,
- Adjustable Center, Rear Center and LFE level control.

Everything Bass-related with your X-Fi is done in your PC, the Yammy won't be doing anything.

 

[fredblue]

http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=47187

Walkthrough on Bass & LFE Redirection on the SB X-Fi.

 

[The Bright Side]

Hey Adam, thanks for the additional information. This is great stuff. So it seems like receivers by other manufacturers handle things differently, right? Cos the Samsung sounds much better, so I have to assume it does some sort of processing (I actually know it does, because I can do tone control for the fronts while using the Multi-Ch analogue connections).

Unfortunately, under Ubuntu, the X-Fi sound card is very badly supported. I can only choose bwteeen digital S/PDIF out and analogue out, and for the latter, I can select Stereo, 5.0, 4.1 and 5.1. No other settings are available.

In Windows, it seems like there's a plethora of different settings in the sound card's own software (Windows itself only offers the basics, too). I haven't gone into those yet while connected to the Yamaha, but I fiddled with them about two weeks ago when I was testing the new speakers with the Samsung receiver. Yeah, I can do a lot of sound management with those.

I hardly ever use Windows, though, so I guess my options are:

New Sound card
Stick with the Samsung

I'm undecided at this point. I'll look into sound cards to see which ones are the best supported under Ubuntu.

As for S/PDIF, I used to use that in the past for DTS and DD from my PC, but these days I listen to all my surround stuff from my PC and it's encoded in all kinds of ways. FLAC, AAC, DTS WAV... So I'd need to use the analogue outs. I tried the S/PDIF on the Yamaha yesterday, but didn't get VLC to properly play back DTS or DD. Stereo sounded pretty good, though!

Hey, if I get a sound card with HDMI, will it allow me to play any source material regardless of the encoding? Or does it have limitations similar to optical?

 

[0tto]

analog multi channel in among manufacturers is standartized and meant bypassing all internal processing
of the sound, thus use of it in fact sort of turning receiver into power amps.
as Adam said above, there none of problem with your Yamaha but with sound card, which doesn't supply
sufficient output to receiver through analog output.
yes, HDMI doesn't have limitation to 1.5mbps as optical or coax and you can send through it full bitstreams,
either as digital or raw PCM.

 

[fredblue]

analog multi channel in among manufacturers is standartized and meant bypassing all internal processing
of the sound, thus use of it in fact sort of turning receiver into power amps.
as Adam said above, there none of problem with your Yamaha but with sound card, which doesn't supply
sufficient output to receiver through analog output.
yes, HDMI doesn't have limitation to 1.5mbps as optical or coax and you can send through it full bitstreams,
either as digital or raw PCM.

Thanks mr that just about sums it up!

 

[fredblue]

Hey Adam, thanks for the additional information. This is great stuff. So it seems like receivers by other manufacturers handle things differently, right? Cos the Samsung sounds much better, so I have to assume it does some sort of processing (I actually know it does, because I can do tone control for the fronts while using the Multi-Ch analogue connections).

Unfortunately, under Ubuntu, the X-Fi sound card is very badly supported. I can only choose bwteeen digital S/PDIF out and analogue out, and for the latter, I can select Stereo, 5.0, 4.1 and 5.1. No other settings are available.

In Windows, it seems like there's a plethora of different settings in the sound card's own software (Windows itself only offers the basics, too). I haven't gone into those yet while connected to the Yamaha, but I fiddled with them about two weeks ago when I was testing the new speakers with the Samsung receiver. Yeah, I can do a lot of sound management with those.

I hardly ever use Windows, though, so I guess my options are:

New Sound card
Stick with the Samsung

I'm undecided at this point. I'll look into sound cards to see which ones are the best supported under Ubuntu.

As for S/PDIF, I used to use that in the past for DTS and DD from my PC, but these days I listen to all my surround stuff from my PC and it's encoded in all kinds of ways. FLAC, AAC, DTS WAV... So I'd need to use the analogue outs. I tried the S/PDIF on the Yamaha yesterday, but didn't get VLC to properly play back DTS or DD. Stereo sounded pretty good, though!

Hey, if I get a sound card with HDMI, will it allow me to play any source material regardless of the encoding? Or does it have limitations similar to optical?

You're welcome Matthias I'm not knocking Samsung for one second (they make a load of components for everyone else after all!) but the Samsung can't be that great as any AVR worth it's snuff totally bypasses any EQ/Tone Controls/Bass Management so that the source does all that and the AVR just amplifies it "straight" (direct, unfutzed with, etc..!).

a new sound card with HDMI out would be a great solution I imagine, so long as it works better than your current Creative sound blaster on the Ubuntu OS..!?

 

[fredblue]

you never said how your move went, Val..!? hope it was all groovy and you're enjoying lots of 5.1 in your new home?

:banana:

 

[0tto]

thanks for asking. i saw it but don't like to steer anniversary topic off track
it wasn't most pleasant day, particularly if consider that march and most part of the april here still real winter.
anyway it's now in past.
at present can't really listen to 5.1 as most of my stuff remains unpacked due to remodeling/renovation works.
house isn't really new. albeit back in 70th when it was build and afterwards, it got lots of nice features such
like plenty of real oak hardwood floor, railing, sliding door to deck, oversized garage with 12 feet celling, etc.
seems like lately was quite neglected. actually i brought it to get rid of remnant of the morgage on my previous
house. well, it turns out to finish what i started, i'm almost forced to get back in debt. just trying to keep it as
low as possible by doing everything myself and hope till end of the june to be done with main floor at least.

 

[The Bright Side]

Hey guys! I agree that the Samsung _should_ be inferior to the Yamaha receiver, I mean yeah you're right Samsung is good and nice but these two receivers are in two completely different leagues. Still, I get better sound over 5.1 analogue when I use the Samsung.

I did some more research and the facts remain as you pointed out: the Yamaha (and most modern receivers, as it seems) do nothing at all through the analog inputs. It just stupefies me that there aren't more PC users who have problems with this. After all, even if a card's bundled Windows software suite has the bass management options, it'll sound shitty out of the box. Still, nobody else is complaining from what I can see. I keep wondering if I'm missing something completely obvious!

Also, what about an old 90s Sony CD player, for instance? Did that have its own built-in bass management? How did people deal with this in the days before HDMI and optical? Did the receivers back then take care of the amplification? (I know my 1980s stereo amp in Germany does, cos the 1995 CD player I have hooked up to it definitely does not have its own bass management.)

I found one interesting thread at AVS by a guy who had the same problem as me back in 2007:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/830232/suggest-500-receiver-with-multichannel-analog-bass-management

When I have some more time to hook the Yamaha up again, I'll play around with the sound card's controls in Windows. My first research into HDMI cards suggests the X-Fi Surround 5.1 Pro is already one of the best cards for Ubuntu. :-/ Going back to Windows is not really an option for me, so we'll see... I guess I'll just keep the Yamaha around until I find a solution with which it works.