King Crimson DVD-A Discussion

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Well, what would differ between players to account for this? Are you guys still using analog outs in this day and age? If so, the output voltage can vary between players, conceivably (though it shouldn't happen) causing distortion from one and not the other.
Yes analog out. I had other issues with the Pioneer as well. KC: Lizard skipped on one of the tracks and Track 1 of David Crosby: IICORMN only played the first 30 seconds. And there was something about the bass management that was uncovered here after some back and forth posts between myself and another QQ'er. So the good news for me is that I don't have to use that player anymore. The funny thing is when the 79avi came out about 10 years ago it sold for ($1000) almost as much as the Oppo 105 does today.
 
Am I really the odd man out here? Even though I think every other remix I've heard by this gentleman was spot on?

Something has to have gone wrong in the mastering here...


SW doesn't hit them all out of the ballpark. The Red surround mix doesn't do much for me ....but I mark that down at least in part to there just not being much there to distribute in surround anyway. His ELP remixes also have their critics...the Tarkus mix in particular.

But S&BB in 5.1 is terrific, as are the early KC albums.
 
This just in from those lovely people at Panegyric.

The Road To Red Q & A

What is it?

It's a multi CD/DVD-A/Blu-Ray set drawn from King Crimson's final US/Canadian tours from April - July 1974 & the studio recordings at Olympic studios in London in July 1974 presented in a 12" box similar to last year's Larks' Tongues in Aspic set.

I was at one of those shows. I still treasure the ticket stub/handbill/poster I grabbed from outside the venue after the show.

Lucky person. Please feel free to email DGM a decent scan of any/all of the above. If it's something we don't have in the archive & we use it, you'll get your name included in the 'thank you' section in the booklet, so long as you tell us your name.

When will it be released?

We're aiming for October.

What's in it?

The exact contents are still being finalised but it's looking like about 20CDs, 1 DVD-A & 2 Blu-Rays.

That's a lot. But what Music - not what number of discs?

Oh, yes, well on CD:

One concert from audio restored bootleg - Central Park - July 1st 1974 - previously only available as a KC mail order Collectors' Club release.

A number of concerts drawn from the band's own stereo soundboard cassettes.

Four of these are unreleased in any format: June 5th & 8th from Texas, June 16th from Colorado, June 23rd from Michigan.

A further group of concerts are issued on CD for the first time - having been available from DGMLive as downloads only.

The complete concerts from this tour previously issued on CD only in edited form on The Great Deceiver and/or as downloads from DGM live are also included:

Pittsburgh, Toronto, Penn. State University & Providence, as is the Chris Murphy mix of the Asbury Park concert - These CDs were all mixed from multitracks & appear as they did on the CDs as released.

Finally, on CD, there is also a new stereo mix of the Red album by Robert Fripp & Steven Wilson.

Some fans already own Great Deceiver and/or Asbury Park

We allow for this fact when we're setting the price of the set. Many other boxed sets in the market offer far less music for a similar or higher equivalent price.


Is that everything you have at DGM?

From this period, no, there are some bootlegs from the tour - but it would have made the box too expensive to include them. We could issue them separately at a later date if there's demand. The final concert in the box (from bootleg) is included as it's a great performance & the last of its kind. The DGM archive covers all eras of the band that may form the basis of future releases, but it made most sense to focus this set on the April/July 1974 tours

OK, sticking with this one for the moment, what about the DVD-A & the two Blu-Ray discs? What footage is there?

No footage (unless someone decides to send us the footage they shot of [insert gig name here] & forgot about for the last 39 years), this is an audio only set.

The DVD-A will feature the new stereo mix of Red & the stereo mixes of USA in high-resolution stereo.

The two Blu-Rays will feature the stereo mixes from the DVD-A above &
the (previously released) 5.1 mixes of Red.


You need two Blu-Rays for that?

I hadn't quite finished. The Blu-Rays also feature those complete concerts, Ontario, Penn. State University et al, that were professionally recorded & mixed from multi track recordings, newly transferred from the original Dolby SR half inch stereo master tapes in high resolution stereo.

Wow, what does that sound like?

The boxed set allows a listener to take a 'virtual tour' with King Crimson in 1974. For most of the concerts - drawn from soundboard cassettes - the sound is broadly similar to the perspective of the guys behind the desk on any given day, perfectly reasonable & better than many live recordings from the period.

The stereo CDs from the shows that were multi-tracked sound even better, as anyone familiar with The Great Deceiver knows.

The new transfers on the Blu-Rays are in a different league when it comes to audio quality.

Effectively, the listener is placed front & centre a few rows from the virtual stage while King Crimson play some of the best concerts of their career on a final tour schedule immediately prior to the recording of the classic Red album.

This is a key era for the band & one of the most requested from fans of the band when it comes to archive releases.

When can I order it?

Soon.

I have more questions for the DGM team (which I have asked):

1) the video footage on the Red DVD-A (from ORTF France) will not be included?
2) will the original stereo mix and any studio outtakes be included on CD, DVD-A, and/or Blu-Ray in the box set?
 
I saw that post this morning too. I'm in for sure as I can never have enough live '74 KC. I guess when I get it I can weed out some of the duplicate stuff from my collection, and it sounds like they're going to try and keep the price as reasonable as possible.
 
This just in from those lovely people at Panegyric.



I have more questions for the DGM team (which I have asked):

1) the video footage on the Red DVD-A (from ORTF France) will not be included?
2) will the original stereo mix and any studio outtakes be included on CD, DVD-A, and/or Blu-Ray in the box set?


A very important question:
Will the Surround mix be 48(as in the original disc) or 96(as it should be)?
 
More importantly is the only 5.1 music included going to be the Red surround mix we already have?

Don't get me wrong, I saw them in June 1974 and this box is a must have. I'm longing for a USA release in 5.1 since they clearly have the multi tracks to work with.

Apologies if I misread the teaser.

The Red DVD-A seems okay to me. It's a metallic record (distortion bass effects, etc) except for the bulk of Starless with the horns and such.
 
More importantly is the only 5.1 music included going to be the Red surround mix we already have?

Don't get me wrong, I saw them in June 1974 and this box is a must have. I'm longing for a USA release in 5.1 since they clearly have the multi tracks to work with.

Apologies if I misread the teaser.

The Red DVD-A seems okay to me. It's a metallic record (distortion bass effects, etc) except for the bulk of Starless with the horns and such.

Well according to the Q&A, yes, that appears to be the only 5.1 mix in the set. They should AT LEAST include the other extra tracks in 5.1 from the DVD-A, like the "Fallen Angel" (Trio Version)", the full version of "Providence", and "A Voyage to the Centre of the Cosmos".
 
Actually it was proven with the massive Larks Tongues In Aspic box last year that a lot is being delivered at a very attractive price.

This is borne out by the statement within the text about some portions have been released in some form and that is factored into the pricing. I admire the fact that the point of this release is to be as complete as possible.

It certainly helps to be completely enamored with King Crimson in 1974 to fully appreciate a package of this calibre.
 
Kind of disappointed to learn that the 5.1 mix will be left untouched. Of the KC 5.1 discs I have, Red seems to be the most bass shy in surround. It's not until the finale of Starless that it really seems to kick in. I had a brief conversation with SW about it but there was no conclusion to that discussion.
 
I'm listening to the Red DVD-A to comment on this and I would offer the following explanation as a person who plays bass because of John Wetton.

If you listen to tracks 1-4 (Red thru Providence) the bass guitar is using either a distortion or other effects pedal nearly all the time as it helps fill out the sound in a largely trio setting. It is not until the beginning of Starless that the bass guitar has a natural round (unaffected) tone because it is going to sit with other instruments (that are now filling out the tune). Then there are sections within Starless where effects come back in. Remember this is 1974 when effects pedals and recording techniques were different. There were no effects pedals that also supplied a dry output to preserve the original sound as we have today. This was 16 or 24 track recording. Did they have the luxury of recording a separate dry bass track either mic'd or direct? Did anybody think about it? If there was only the single bass track printed with the effects on it you can't very well make a new dry unaffected track from that.

Maybe SW suggested putting more into the bass region but I suspect that either Robert Fripp vetoed that or they both agreed that the original tonal balance was more important. It's still a great release, all things considered.
 
I'm listening to the Red DVD-A to comment on this and I would offer the following explanation as a person who plays bass because of John Wetton.

If you listen to tracks 1-4 (Red thru Providence) the bass guitar is using either a distortion or other effects pedal nearly all the time as it helps fill out the sound in a largely trio setting. It is not until the beginning of Starless that the bass guitar has a natural round (unaffected) tone because it is going to sit with other instruments (that are now filling out the tune). Then there are sections within Starless where effects come back in. Remember this is 1974 when effects pedals and recording techniques were different. There were no effects pedals that also supplied a dry output to preserve the original sound as we have today. This was 16 or 24 track recording. Did they have the luxury of recording a separate dry bass track either mic'd or direct? Did anybody think about it? If there was only the single bass track printed with the effects on it you can't very well make a new dry unaffected track from that.

Maybe SW suggested putting more into the bass region but I suspect that either Robert Fripp vetoed that or they both agreed that the original tonal balance was more important. It's still a great release, all things considered.


Bass sounds pretty normal in the verses of Fallen Angel -- as in the versus of Starless. A lot of the distortion is often just Wetton's attack getting harder.

And I suspect Wetton was feeding output from his mighty Ampeg stack to the board, either mic'd or direct, but I'm guessing there. It sounds very 'live' even on the studio tracks.
 
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An Ampeg stack? Not sure where you got that from. If you lean into an Ampeg, it would produce more boom than anything else. He used Hi-Watt and Marshall heads because these would break up nicely for an edgy sound when you leaned into them. Marshall 4-12 cabinets were seen then a Cerwin-Vega folded horn cabinet that made him even louder on stage. (but probably not used in the studio) Hopefully The Road to Red will have more details about the recording process.

Also found: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f28/john-wetton-tone-technique-used-red-king-crimson-985023/

Edit: You may have seen Ampeg gear in Asia days or later; by then he was using a pick due to wrist problems. When I met him last year (UK trio), I saw that during sound check and later just before the show started he actually uses electrical tape to attach the pick to his thumb.

Back to the central question, is it bass shy compared to other albums? Probably. Perhaps it is different on the new stereo mix. Fripp has stated that working with SW, that SW does 95% of the work (mix decisions, etc.) and he approves it. Given that, it seems they wanted to honor the original album sound.
 
http://www.dgmlive.com/diaries.htm?entry=23676

Well at least we know why "Beat" hasn't been released yet.
They're still working on it...

Beat (KC 1982) is the only KC album where I had no involvement in the original mixing at all: Adrian told me to leave the studio, only one wrinkle in Crimson’s long history of wrinkling. Co-producer Rhett Davies was responsible for that mix.

Today’s work: re-mixing several of the stereo tracks where Steven and myself failed to add significantly to the originals. Now, we have
 
Another new tidbit from Mr Fripp, 25th April diary:

…to begin our work together: the KC documentary DVD of 2008 Crim touring.

I believe last year it was said that the last of the Club releases would be dvd's...I suppose this is part of that series then?
 
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