Questions on Atmos quality on various streaming platforms

[fearandloath]

I have a question about Atmos streaming. I currently have Amazon Music and the Atmos offerings are limited and not always easy to find. But I find them very much lacking in fidelity. I hook my Fire Stick directly into my Denon Atmos receiver and the best quality I can get from Amazon is CD quality. I have a nice physical collection of surround music and doing A/B comparison with Amazon just shows how lacking the streaming media is. I don't get the hype. The Hi-Res physical media wins hands down every time. Even comparing their Atmos to a physical 5.1 recording. I have thought about switching to Apple as they have some great Atmos titles, but if I am getting that same kind of sound quality it's not worth the effort. These need to be Hi-Res to really appreciate them. So I just read that Apple offers Hi-Res. So my question is if I buy an Apple 4K box and switch will I actually get the Hi-Res? I know in streaming what they offer and what you can actually receive are two different things. Am I going to actually get the 96 or even 192 that they claim to offer? I plan to stream through the Apple 4K box and not use an ethernet cable. Also is Apple actually able to give an accurate reading of the bit rate your receiving? With Amazon it's spotty.

 

[PurpleMoustache]

I have a question about Atmos streaming. I currently have Amazon Music and the Atmos offerings are limited and not always easy to find. But I find them very much lacking in fidelity. I hook my Fire Stick directly into my Denon Atmos receiver and the best quality I can get from Amazon is CD quality. I have a nice physical collection of surround music and doing A/B comparison with Amazon just shows how lacking the streaming media is. I don't get the hype. The Hi-Res physical media wins hands down every time. Even comparing their Atmos to a physical 5.1 recording. I have thought about switching to Apple as they have some great Atmos titles, but if I am getting that same kind of sound quality it's not worth the effort. These need to be Hi-Res to really appreciate them. So I just read that Apple offers Hi-Res. So my question is if I buy an Apple 4K box and switch will I actually get the Hi-Res? I know in streaming what they offer and what you can actually receive are two different things. Am I going to actually get the 96 or even 192 that they claim to offer? I plan to stream through the Apple 4K box and not use an ethernet cable. Also is Apple actually able to give an accurate reading of the bit rate your receiving? With Amazon it's spotty.

So for starters, to the best of my knowledge: Tidal, Apple and Amazon Music all stream the same bitrate (or close enough to not matter) for Atmos content. Until things change behind the scenes, all Atmos streamed content is lossy.

That being said, both Apple and Tidal do offer lossless and high res lossless stereo only music.
Apple Music does go up to 24 bit 196 kHz ALAC, while Tidal offers the same thing in FLAC, and may still offer MQA files which are higher quality, but there is lots of drama and controversy if MQA actually contains the information it says it is. A 111 post thread elsewhere on this site is a better place for that conversation however.

Now here comes the stupid part: the Apple TV box does not support hi res lossless. As mentioned in their own FAQ, the Apple TV can only do 48 kHz content, and if they’re basing this off of the Airplay 2 standard that their HomePods (which use the same OS, by the way, fun fact) use, this means that the Apple TV box tops out at 24 bit 48 kHz, which is the top end of what Apple considers “Lossless” before becoming “High Res Lossless”.

That being said you do get true, accurate, High Res Lossless on the iPhone, iPad, Mac, and in the Beta of the Apple Music For Windows that’s currently exclusive to Windows 11/some versions of 10. All will mention in their FAQ that an external DAC will be needed to truly experience this higher bitrate however. Each app, except the windows version (which to it’s credit, is in beta) offers a button somewhere that pops up the bitrate and specs for each track, like so:

 

[fearandloath]

So for starters, to the best of my knowledge: Tidal, Apple and Amazon Music all stream the same bitrate (or close enough to not matter) for Atmos content. Until things change behind the scenes, all Atmos streamed content is lossy.

That being said, both Apple and Tidal do offer lossless and high res lossless stereo only music.
Apple Music does go up to 24 bit 196 kHz ALAC, while Tidal offers the same thing in FLAC, and may still offer MQA files which are higher quality, but there is lots of drama and controversy if MQA actually contains the information it says it is. A 111 post thread elsewhere on this site is a better place for that conversation however.

Now here comes the stupid part: the Apple TV box does not support hi res lossless. As mentioned in their own FAQ, the Apple TV can only do 48 kHz content, and if they’re basing this off of the Airplay 2 standard that their HomePods (which use the same OS, by the way, fun fact) use, this means that the Apple TV box tops out at 24 bit 48 kHz, which is the top end of what Apple considers “Lossless” before becoming “High Res Lossless”.

That being said you do get true, accurate, High Res Lossless on the iPhone, iPad, Mac, and in the Beta of the Apple Music For Windows that’s currently exclusive to Windows 11/some versions of 10. All will mention in their FAQ that an external DAC will be needed to truly experience this higher bitrate however. Each app, except the windows version (which to it’s credit, is in beta) offers a button somewhere that pops up the bitrate and specs for each track, like so:
View attachment 92155

Thank you very much for the info. I appreciate it. But that being said what is the point of the streaming Atmos then? If you can't experience these mixes the way they were meant to be heard in a Hi-Res format without spending even more money on equipment and having what sounds like a not very user friendly format. I'm an older audiophile and have always used physical media so I still don't understand what the point of running Hi-Res through an IPhone or IPad is. How you can get true surround on a pair of headphones. It would have to be a simulated sound field. And the headache of running a long ethernet cable and hooking up my laptop to a DAC and running that through my receiver seems excessive. I guess I will just have to stick to my physical media. I wish they would put out releases of those Atmos mixes as an alternative for old guys like me.

 

[himey]

what is the point of the streaming Atmos then?

If you can't get a good mix to sound good streaming, there is something wrong with your setup. Rant all you want, but if you can't get the Atmos mix of Van Morrison Moondance, for example, to sound good, then you are simply doing it wrong.

 

[perzon57]

Thank you very much for the info. I appreciate it. But that being said what is the point of the streaming Atmos then? If you can't experience these mixes the way they were meant to be heard in a Hi-Res format without spending even more money on equipment and having what sounds like a not very user friendly format. I'm an older audiophile and have always used physical media so I still don't understand what the point of running Hi-Res through an IPhone or IPad is. How you can get true surround on a pair of headphones. It would have to be a simulated sound field. And the headache of running a long ethernet cable and hooking up my laptop to a DAC and running that through my receiver seems excessive. I guess I will just have to stick to my physical media. I wish they would put out releases of those Atmos mixes as an alternative for old guys like me.

I'm a old guy too, and prefer Atmos streaming over disc for most of the time. Though some music like Tom Petty I'd like to have on disc too, but I don't think it will happen. So I enjoy all the good, and some not so good, Atmos mixes for what their worth.

 

[PurpleMoustache]

Thank you very much for the info. I appreciate it. But that being said what is the point of the streaming Atmos then? If you can't experience these mixes the way they were meant to be heard in a Hi-Res format without spending even more money on equipment and having what sounds like a not very user friendly format. I'm an older audiophile and have always used physical media so I still don't understand what the point of running Hi-Res through an IPhone or IPad is. How you can get true surround on a pair of headphones. It would have to be a simulated sound field. And the headache of running a long ethernet cable and hooking up my laptop to a DAC and running that through my receiver seems excessive. I guess I will just have to stick to my physical media. I wish they would put out releases of those Atmos mixes as an alternative for old guys like me.

I’d argue that the point is reaching a larger audience.

Let’s face it, surround sound setups are expensive, take up space, require setup and troubleshooting. These are all barriers to entry for anyone but the most dedicated, or enthusiastic.

On top of that, like it or not, streaming more or less seems to be the standard going forward for music/movies/TV. I held onto “owning” my music for years, buying things off of Bandcamp, iTunes, and other sites and carefully curating my library… but that meant buying each and every album, even if it ends up that I don’t like it. Now, I can try an album, if I like it, I can seek out the vinyl, the CD, the box set what have you, and if I don’t like it… I just don’t hit the “add to library” button.

Take those two together and we have a larger range of artists, genres, styles etc getting surround sound releases that wouldn’t have made financial sense to make a box set or a disc release of. To pick a random artist from scrolling around Apple’s Atmos section: Lana Del Rey. Lana has a large fanbase, but it’s largely teen->20+ year olds who listen to her music. Her latest album has a fantastic Atmos mix, one that sounds good even over streaming. Would it sound better, uncompressed on a disc? Almost certainly. Would her fans have anything to play it on? Probably not.
Instead, we have fans who are… genuinely excited about listening to the album in a surround format at all. Yes, they may think that “better headphones” are key to a “better experience”, but I’d argue that them being excited at all is the point. And that seems to be Dolby’s big play here. It’s been 11 years of Atmos, since it’s launch with Pixar’s Brave, and in that 11 years it’s gone from a system in one specific theater, to a tech that’s baked into most consumer tech… and one that people who don’t post on a surround forum get excited about:

 

[humprof]

Thank you very much for the info. I appreciate it. But that being said what is the point of the streaming Atmos then? If you can't experience these mixes the way they were meant to be heard in a Hi-Res format without spending even more money on equipment and having what sounds like a not very user friendly format. I'm an older audiophile and have always used physical media so I still don't understand what the point of running Hi-Res through an IPhone or IPad is. How you can get true surround on a pair of headphones. It would have to be a simulated sound field.

We feel your pain, @fearandloath, and believe me, that's all been hashed out here ad nauseam. I think the industry's position, even if audiophiles (and most mixers!) would disagree, is that these mixes weren't necessarily "meant" to be heard in a Hi-Res format. For them, Atmos over headphones (or soundbar, or laptop speakers) is just as legitimate as Atmos over a professional or consumer-grade multi-speaker system. For me, the point of streaming Atmos is a) something is better than nothing--and believe me, there's a whole lot of somethings, good, bad, and meh, that are exclusive to streaming, and b) occasionally some of those streaming mixes do make the jump to optical disc or digital download, and streaming allows me to preview them first (along with pretty much any other disc or download I might be thinking of purchasing in a stereo format).

And the headache of running a long ethernet cable and hooking up my laptop to a DAC and running that through my receiver seems excessive. I guess I will just have to stick to my physical media. I wish they would put out releases of those Atmos mixes as an alternative for old guys like me.

Generally speaking, that wouldn't be a viable alternative anyway. You'd still wind up getting (for instance) a Fire Stick or Cube for Tidal, or an Apple TV4K box for Apple Music.

 

[Misterbee]

Thank you very much for the info. I appreciate it. But that being said what is the point of the streaming Atmos then? If you can't experience these mixes the way they were meant to be heard in a Hi-Res format without spending even more money on equipment and having what sounds like a not very user friendly format. I'm an older audiophile and have always used physical media so I still don't understand what the point of running Hi-Res through an IPhone or IPad is. How you can get true surround on a pair of headphones. It would have to be a simulated sound field. And the headache of running a long ethernet cable and hooking up my laptop to a DAC and running that through my receiver seems excessive. I guess I will just have to stick to my physical media. I wish they would put out releases of those Atmos mixes as an alternative for old guys like me.

It’s a fair question. And speaking as a fellow old guy, I would suggest you put this to the test. Find some youngster who is willing to bring over his Apple TV (or some other streaming device) and connect it to your system. Then ask them to play some of your favorite mixes, so you can decide for yourself whether the audio quality is worth It or not.

You might be surprised…

 

[marpow]

This is very good #7122-7130.
Thank you @PurpleMoustache , really good informative stuff.
I have the full ATMOS rig at home with the Apple4K box, I have never looked back. As with hard discs there is hit and miss with streaming. As a member of QQ since 2014 I have heard every like and dislike imaginable.
I recently purchased Beats Studio 3 Wireless Headphones and I have used them while working and washing my car and at the gym, I absolutely love them, they are so cool. I use them with my Apple Music account on my iPhone.
I have no desire to listen to them at my home space but walking around, doing chores, gym etc, they are so good, I get to hear the music differently, all of it, really getting to apprciate the songs themselves. The song quality Atmos vs lossless stereo is different, but all in a good way.
Can I hear a big open space of Atmos on the head phones like I can at home, no.
But, and a big but, I look forward to listening to the Beats just as much as I look forward to the big rig.
I am always looking forward, I hate being stuck in the past, and the new Atmos trend, that I started about 5 years ago, just keeps getting better.
And as purple said, we are getting to experience good stuff that we definately would not have been able to without a streaming service.
One little note, not every Dolby Atmos signal comes out Atmos, I have seen a Dolby Atmos signal come out 5.1, 4.0 and Atmos. I believe it has nothing to do with the streaming service but more to do with the remix itself.
Whew, that was a long one.

 

[himey]

One little note, not every Dolby Atmos signal comes out Atmos, I have seen a Dolby Atmos signal come out 5.1, 4.0 and Atmos

Are you taking Dolby Audio into consideration, or suggesting something different?

 

[ted_b]

Folks need to understand that Atmos is 24/48 when lossless so these dreams of wanting 96k or 192k don’t exist for Atmos, even via Blu-ray. Apple’s stream is clearly compressed but many Apple Atmos streams are sonically magnificent, even compressed.

Lossless immersive streaming is coming this fall (Artist connection).

 

[ted_b]

.
One little note, not every Dolby Amos signal comes out Atmos, I have seen a Dolby Atmos signal come out 5.1, 4.0 and Atmos. I believe it has nothing to do with the streaming service but more to do with the remix itself.

You have a system problem. 100% of Atmos streams are processed in my system as Atmos ( and many not labeled Atmos due to the much discussed all-or-nothing labeling). Not all Atmos uses all the speakers but they are Atmos.

 

[marpow]

You have a system problem. 100% of Atmos streams are processed in my system as Atmos ( and many not labeled Atmos due to the much discussed all-or-nothing labeling). Not all Atmos uses all the speakers but they are Atmos.

Yes, I 100% agree with you, somehow I didn't explain myself correctly, guranteed no system problem on my end.

 

[marpow]

Are you taking Dolby Audio into consideration, or suggesting something different?

Not sure what you mean.
This picture I have included contains my Apple4K box top left, and A/V with Dolby Atmos signal from Apple.

This is what I see everytime I listen to a designated ATMOS source.
If I may explain myself better, some times the music is shit, barely activating the heights, sometimes the music is shit and barely activates the center channel, there are a wide variety of intense (really good) Atmos and shitty Atmos.

My rig is 5 on floor, 3 subs, 4 heights.

I am very confident in my explanation (Atmos Only Streaming Conversation) and system.

 

[Cheezmo]

Others may realize this but I did not until a couple weeks back but you are able to add surround sound albums from your own collection (if you convert to Alac/M4a format) into your Apple Music Library through the Itunes app. I have done this with most of my DTS 5.1 discs and love the convenience of simply picking those from my library even though they are not available in surround format through Apple Music. Edited by Moderator to remove request for copyrighted material
Paul

Could you follow up with what you are doing here in this thread? Ripping in surround for Apple TV

I am unaware of any way to add multichannel files to your Apple Music Library in such a way that they would play back in 5.1 on an AppleTV other than through the Computers app and home sharing, and that is problematic getting it to actually switch to 5.1 output. Anyway please join us in the other thread as many are interested in doing what you are describing.

 

[ted_b]

Marpow you are agreeing with my disagreeing post?? I don’t understand. You said not all the Atmos labeled streams are Atmos! I disagreed and said you have a system problem.

If you, instead, are trying to say that not all Atmos mixes are great, that is another thing entirely and not anything close to saying they are not Atmos! I apologize if It’s a language issue

 

[perzon57]

Marpow you are agreeing with my disagreeing post?? I don’t understand. You said not all the Atmos labeled streams are Atmos! I disagreed and said you have a system problem.

If you, instead, are trying to say that not all Atmos mixes are great, that is another thing entirely and not anything close to saying they are not Atmos! I apologize if It’s a language issue

I agree with what @marpow says, some Atmos mixes are only 5.1 or less even if the display on the AVC says Atmos. An example is the new EP with covers from Ghost. Very good music and a good 5.1 mix, but there is nothing in the heights or the surround backs so it's a fraud Atmos mix. This happens way to often and is why I installed LED meters for the heights and surround backs to monitor the output.

 

[fearandloath]

I’d argue that the point is reaching a larger audience.

Let’s face it, surround sound setups are expensive, take up space, require setup and troubleshooting. These are all barriers to entry for anyone but the most dedicated, or enthusiastic.

On top of that, like it or not, streaming more or less seems to be the standard going forward for music/movies/TV. I held onto “owning” my music for years, buying things off of Bandcamp, iTunes, and other sites and carefully curating my library… but that meant buying each and every album, even if it ends up that I don’t like it. Now, I can try an album, if I like it, I can seek out the vinyl, the CD, the box set what have you, and if I don’t like it… I just don’t hit the “add to library” button.

Take those two together and we have a larger range of artists, genres, styles etc getting surround sound releases that wouldn’t have made financial sense to make a box set or a disc release of. To pick a random artist from scrolling around Apple’s Atmos section: Lana Del Rey. Lana has a large fanbase, but it’s largely teen->20+ year olds who listen to her music. Her latest album has a fantastic Atmos mix, one that sounds good even over streaming. Would it sound better, uncompressed on a disc? Almost certainly. Would her fans have anything to play it on? Probably not.
Instead, we have fans who are… genuinely excited about listening to the album in a surround format at all. Yes, they may think that “better headphones” are key to a “better experience”, but I’d argue that them being excited at all is the point. And that seems to be Dolby’s big play here. It’s been 11 years of Atmos, since it’s launch with Pixar’s Brave, and in that 11 years it’s gone from a system in one specific theater, to a tech that’s baked into most consumer tech… and one that people who don’t post on a surround forum get excited about:
View attachment 92160

I absolutely agree with you when it comes to streaming music in stereo. I listen to it all the time in my car, make my own playlists and as you said use it to preview albums before buying. If I enjoy it I still buy the CD. But when it comes to surround music, for me so far, physical media wins out every time.

 

[fearandloath]

I'm a old guy too, and prefer Atmos streaming over disc for most of the time. Though some music like Tom Petty I'd like to have on disc too, but I don't think it will happen. So I enjoy all the good, and some not so good, Atmos mixes for what their worth.

I have 3 Tom Petty Blu-Ray Audios and I did an A/B test with some songs from the Petty Atmos mixes on Amazon Music. Keep in mind this is even comparing 5.1 to Atmos. And the Blu-Ray Audio completely blew the streaming mix out of the water. More depth and clarity, wider sound field and much better bottom end. No comparison. Especially when I have to turn my receiver up about 14 notches to even get a comparable volume level for streaming. As much as I would love to hear many of those Apple Atmos mixes I guess I will just resign myself to physical media.

 

[marpow]

Marpow you are agreeing with my disagreeing post?? I don’t understand. You said not all the Atmos labeled streams are Atmos! I disagreed and said you have a system problem.

If you, instead, are trying to say that not all Atmos mixes are great, that is another thing entirely and not anything close to saying they are not Atmos! I apologize if It’s a language issue

OK, language Ted. I really would like to think you understand what I am saying. Subject is STREAMING ONLY WITH APPLE 4K.

When looking at music via a Apple4K box (Apple Music App) we all know that the Atmos signal will have a moniker at top of album saying Dolby Atmos, some titles will not have the Dolby Atmos moniker at top if there are no Atmos tracks or less than a full album of Atmos tracks. Atmos tracks ie; 2 of 10. This example, two of ten, only those two tracks will have the Atmos moniker, but the main album will not.

These albums that are fully Atmos enalbed where you get the Atmos signal on all tracks, sometimes are giving us the full force of all there is and sometimes not so much. Shitty Atmos mix not delivering as one would want to all speakers.
Example, full Dolby Atmos signal at AVR like I show in picture above, but nothing coming out of heights or only no center chanel, ad infinitem.

As I said in Post 7131, and I think your hung up on the below sentence.

One little note, not every Dolby Atmos signal comes out Atmos, I have seen a Dolby Atmos signal come out 5.1, 4.0 and Atmos. I believe it has nothing to do with the streaming service but more to do with the remix itself.

I will rephrase, when playing music from the Apple Music App all Dolby Atmos signals, come to your speaker set up as Dolby Atmos from Apple Music to your AVR or Pre/Pro, however, due to shitty mixes, what makes it to a heard listening level at your personal speaker set up can be anything from a Dolby Atmos awesome experience, a 4.1 experience to a 5.1 experience, even with minute nothings in heights.
All of the above I guess is easier to say. All of us that listen to Atmos frequently will be able to say, that was awesome or that was basically MCH as nothing was coming through the heights.
For the newcomer lurking on this thread, and thats who I always am writing to, I don't want to give the impression that Atmos Streaming is always a full envelope of Atmos surround, it is sometimes very blah.

How do I know this or decipher this? I own 3 amps that control 9 speakers, all amps have VU meters, sometimes those meters do not move, depending on the mix, or whoever mixed it. I can also turn on and off the amps to hear exactly what is coming out of the rears and center, the two fronts and the four tops. Plus my own ear experience of course.

As @perzon57 just said, the Ghost albums (disapointing) are a perfect example, cool they are in surround, cool they do have the Dolby Atmos moniker/logo, but definately not Atmos in the sense of Van Morrison Moondance or Fleetwood Mac Tango In The Night.

One more note for the newcomer. If your reciever wheter it be PC or AVR or iPhone, etc cannot playback Dolby Atmos, when you open the Apple Music app it will not show the Dolby Atmos logo. You will not be able to play a folded down version it will just default to stereo.
When I play music on home rig, all my albums on my playlist that are Dolby Atmos, say Dolby Atmos.
The same playlist viewed from my PC at work, show no Dolby Atmos logo.
My iPhone when connected to my bluetooth stereo in my garage, the same Apple playlist has no Dolby Atmos logo, the same iPhone, the same Apple Music app, now with my Spatial Audio enabled BEATS headphones, the Dolby Atmos logo appears.
I can't explain, but obviously the app "Apple Music" is able to read the ability to playback Dolby Atmos?

I have explained myself the best I know how. Hopefully someone learned something?