Roxy Music - Avalon: Domestic Release

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Does anyone actually have a confirmation that Avalon is even due for a US release?

I now have authorisation to post the original editorial, courtesy of David Price at www.hi-fiworld.co.uk

"My own personal favourite Roxy Music album is ‘Avalon’. It’s an unfashionable choice – lacking as it does the redoubtable talents of Brian Eno, it’s by no means as innovative, edgy or experimental as the likes of ‘Roxy Music’, ‘For Your Pleasure’ or ‘Stranded’. Released in May 1982, the band’s eighth studio album is actually quite significant, inasmuch as it proved to be the last where we’d see Phil Manzanera, Bryan Ferry and Andy Mackay working together.

‘Avalon’ was recorded at the Compass Point studios in Nassau, and the Power Station in New York. As with most ‘final’ albums, there were tensions in the studio during its recording, with the band pulling in differing artistic directions. Nonetheless, in conjunction with producer Rhett Davies and a wealth of session musicians (13, so I believe), it took the Roxy sound to new areas. Indeed, it could be argued that it set a blueprint for the production values of eighties rock albums – sounding immensely expansive, polished and atmospheric. A chance meeting with singer Yannick Etienne in the studio corridors famously led to the title track’s arrestingly powerful female vocal refrain weaving through the sax and guitars.

The result was tremendous chart success – in the days when you needed to sell more than double figures to get into the Top Forty. The first single, ‘More Than This’ reached number 6 of the UK charts in March 1982, ‘Avalon’ number 13 in May and ‘Take A Chance With Me’ number 26 in July. The album topped the charts and stayed in the album charts for 60 weeks. The original British LP release also proved something of a hi-fi stalwart. Its superb production values and very high standard of recording quality made it the dem record of 1982 – and for many years after.

With this in mind, I was most excited when I received an invitation from the record company to attend the launch party of the new SACD pressing of ‘Avalon’. Not only did it offer the chance to hob-nob with the three band members at Soho’s swanky Groucho club, but I’d have a chance to speak to producer Rhett Davies about how he achieved that brilliant sound. After thinking about the offer for all of three tenths of a second, I graciously accepted.

On a baking June afternoon, yours truly braved the London heat to get over to the Groucho. Upstairs I had a chance to drink beer and chat with the people behind the new Super Audio Compact Disc release. It was an impressive event, all done in the best possible taste and with no small measure of style. However, when I finally got the chance to ‘interrogate’ Rhett on the precise details of the new superbly packaged, shiny new SACD, things went swiftly downhill…

I started by saying how nice I thought the original vinyl pressing sounded, and he agreed. I then said that SACD would be an ideal vehicle for the re-release, with its nicely warm and detailed sonics well able to capture the delicacy of the original analogue master tapes. Instead of nodding emphatically, he dropped a bombshell. “Err, you know that this SACD is taken from DAT masters, don’t you…?”

Suddenly, the room started spinning. It wasn’t through an excess of ice-cold Budwar (which I’d been drinking for purely medicinal reasons), but Rhett’s revelation that one of the biggest, most significant SACD re-releases to date would afford not one scintilla of the theoretical benefits of Direct Stream Digital coding – multichannel mixes notwithstanding. Why? Because it had come straight from an old 16bit, 48kHz PCM digital tape recording!

Whilst the PR blurb had taken great pains to point out the sonic benefits of SACD, the album’s producer had just told me that they’d cut it from a second generation digital copy made sometime in the late nineteen eighties!

Apparently, the masters had been recorded onto a faulty batch of Ampex 560 which had been stored incorrectly, and its poor adhesive duly caused it to start shedding oxide. When the engineers noticed, they’d archived the masters to DAT before they passed the point of no return. The result is that the SACD had been mixed off these very second generation masters!

In an adjoining room at the Groucho Club, the new multichannel mix was being played through £50,000 of monitoring equipment, including five top B&W studio monitors. It sounded deeply mediocre. I told Rhett that I’d heard far better from my old Rega Planar 3, NAD 3020 and Tannoy Mercury system on which I’d originally played the album back in 1982. He didn’t look surprised – an early eighties vinyl pressing is, after all, far closer to the original (now tragically defunct) analogue master tapes…

All I can say is that - if this is what’s going on behind the scenes of most ‘high resolution’ digital reissues - then heaven help hi-fi."
 
With all due respect...

All this tells me is the original masters were used to create the DATs and that the DATs (a digital copy of the master) was used to create the SACD. So what? Listen to this disc. That's all that matters. It would also seem that the engineers backed up the entire master (in multitrack). "India" must have been the only track not found. In any case, this is a beautiful disc! When I listen to it and hear just how great it sounds (on my medium fi, $2500 system), it just doesn't matter what the resolution of the original master is. It also tells me that the reviewer was probably under the influence while listening in the first place.

Bob
 
Bob Romano said:
With all due respect...

All this tells me is the original masters were used to create the DATs and that the DATs (a digital copy of the master) was used to create the SACD. So what? Listen to this disc. That's all that matters. It would also seem that the engineers backed up the entire master (in multitrack). "India" must have been the only track not found. In any case, this is a beautiful disc! When I listen to it and hear just how great it sounds (on my medium fi, $2500 system), it just doesn't matter what the resolution of the original master is. It also tells me that the reviewer was probably under the influence while listening in the first place.

Bob
Well said,Bob. I have heard nothing but good things about this disc. It drives me nuts how people look at "stats" (resolution, bit rates,etc...) and let them taint their point of view rather than just LISTEN to the damn thing! Who gives a rat's ass what tapes were used.....if it sounds good, that's all that matters. This is all reminding me the early days of CD when guys would refuse to buy anything that wasn't DDD. Give your heads a shake!
 
daved64 said:
Well said,Bob. I have heard nothing but good things about this disc. It drives me nuts how people look at "stats" (resolution, bit rates,etc...) and let them taint their point of view rather than just LISTEN to the damn thing! Who gives a rat's ass what tapes were used.....if it sounds good, that's all that matters. This is all reminding me the early days of CD when guys would refuse to buy anything that wasn't DDD. Give your heads a shake!

I couldn't agree more.
Out of interest, I've just heard it. Now I'm wishing I hadn't, as I'm with David 100% I'm afraid. I'll only comment on the multichannel mixing -the only reason I buy the new formats, not for an alledged improvement in quality, which on my setup, I rarely seem to hear (and it's quite a good one).
For me, the mix is boring. As in, I have no urge to listen to it rather than the stereo mix. Bland. Slick production. Nice use of the rear channels I suppose. Not especially creative or adventurous though. Possibly down to my not enjoying later Roxy Music as much as early, possibly not. Then again; that's just how I finds it. If you're into their music, I reckon it's be worth a punt.
Scott
 
Patrick Cleasby said:
Does anyone actually have a confirmation that Avalon is even due for a US release?

I now have authorisation to post the original editorial, courtesy of David Price at www.hi-fiworld.co.uk
...

Ugh, more confusion on top of confusion.

This post doesn't address whether the multitracks were used for the surround mix or not.

Often a re-release to a medium with surround capability (SACD or DVD-Audio etc) will use the original stereo album mix for the stereo version on the multichannel capable medium. Queen's "A Night At the Opera" is a good example of this. The new mix on this DVD-Audio release can only be heard via the multichannel mix.

--Don
 
dabl said:
...

Ugh, more confusion on top of confusion.

This post doesn't address whether the multitracks were used for the surround mix or not.

Often a re-release to a medium with surround capability (SACD or DVD-Audio etc) will use the original stereo album mix for the stereo version on the multichannel capable medium. Queen's "A Night At the Opera" is a good example of this. The new mix on this DVD-Audio release can only be heard via the multichannel mix.

--Don

Often should be "More Often than not", and many would say "should always be".

Examples of new stereo mixes on hi-res stereo tracks through choice include the Dead's American Beauty, and the forthcoming "Running on Empty". These are always bound to stir controversy. "Blonde on Blonde"'s stereo track is reportedly a new mix from the multi-tracks to imitate the original stereo, since the stereo master was too worn.

Anyway, back to the topic in hand - I have had a very detailed response from Bob Clearmountain, which I will summarise in a forthcoming HFR review, but basically the answer is, of course, that the MC mix comes from digital safetys of the multitracks.
 
Patrick Cleasby said:
..."Blonde on Blonde"'s stereo track is reportedly a new mix from the multi-tracks to imitate the original stereo, since the stereo master was too worn.

False. It's the same mix which was used on the previous stereo SACD version of the record.

Patrick Cleasby said:
..."Anyway, back to the topic in hand - I have had a very detailed response from Bob Clearmountain, which I will summarise in a forthcoming HFR review, but basically the answer is, of course, that the MC mix comes from digital safetys of the multitracks.

Promises promises, another dangling carrot.

That information would be great to hear if there was some hope it would appear anytime soon, but new posts at HFR are few and far between........

--Don
 
dabl said:
new posts at HFR are few and far between........

--Don

Hmm, I don't know about that. In recent weeks there are new stories on High Fidelity Review almost daily !
 
timbre4 said:
CD sez it's on it's way as of today; was expecting a long wait for a domestic, glad it's this soon.

Roxy Music Avalon and Ziggy Stardust also have arrived on Hybrid SACD at Best Buy stores. Spotted a copy of each at the local Best Buy in San Carlos for $15.99. Pretty good deal for in-store pricing!
 
bmoura said:
Roxy Music Avalon and Ziggy Stardust also have arrived on Hybrid SACD at Best Buy stores. Spotted a copy of each at the local Best Buy in San Carlos for $15.99. Pretty good deal for in-store pricing!

I picked up Ziggy last week at a Best Buy in St. Louis. I am in Trier, Germany this week and I picked up a copy of T-Rex - Electric Warrior for about the same (equivalent) price. What I have heard ANYTHING about lately is Rush - 2112 !!! Any news? Cheers, Mike.
 
Quadzilla said:
I picked up Ziggy last week at a Best Buy in St. Louis. I am in Trier, Germany this week and I picked up a copy of T-Rex - Electric Warrior for about the same (equivalent) price. What I have heard ANYTHING about lately is Rush - 2112 !!! Any news? Cheers, Mike.
I think the Rush stuff has been dropped for the time being
 
Got to listen to the Avalon SACD last night and what a treat! Too bad the album seems short by today's standards. The sound is absolutely pristine and beautiful. The booklet and packaging are great; says Made in Holland and catalog #7243 5 83871 2 4 ROXYSACD9

Is the this the *exact* disc I could have easily paid $10 more for, just a few weeks ago? ;)

Buy this disc without hesitation! Mine was $13.29 at CD Universe...
 
timbre4 said:
Got to listen to the Avalon SACD last night and what a treat! Too bad the album seems short by today's standards. The sound is absolutely pristine and beautiful. The booklet and packaging are great; says Made in Holland and catalog #7243 5 83871 2 4 ROXYSACD9

Is the this the *exact* disc I could have easily paid $10 more for, just a few weeks ago? ;)

Buy this disc without hesitation! Mine was $13.29 at CD Universe...

Great, thanks......it should be in my mailbox tomorrow!!!!!
(y)
 
Despite all the hand wringing and teeth grinding about the birth of this MC release, it sounds wonderful, with nuances and shadings I have never before heard on any of the three other versions CD/Cass/Vinyl I have owned. And the extra song is a real treat, right up there with the rest of the album. To all the nay sayers: you were wrong.
 
Absolutely right; too much sweat on the details and not the musical outcome.

Having the 'Always Unknowing' B-side is a special treat; that was a vinyl 45rpm cut only until the imported CD box set came around.

Everybody should own 'The Thrill Of It All' CD box set! It is one of the loveliest packages ever made. I believe it may be out of print. Mine is not for sale at any price... ;)
 
Scottmoose said:
Multitracks not on DAT? Precisely. See below for the delightful news. Lossless digital? Depends upon what you call 'lossless' I fear. Again, see below. I was wrong btw -they're second generation, not third. Not that that improves the situation much. Anyway, my apologies, but I've got the information in front of me now.
The source? That'll be Rhett Davies, the producer of the album. The music on the SACD has apparantly come from 16 bit 48KHz PCM tapes, a much lower resolution than analogue or the new formats' capabilities.

<sigh> 16/48 is not necessarily lower than analog -- it depends on what the noise level and frequency range of the original tapes was. 16/44 is likley enough to have easily reproduced the native S/N and usable frequency range of such tapes.

(Hi-bitrate transfers are *undoubtedly* useful for digital editing and mastering -- but not really necessary at the playback end.)



Check out David Price's editiorial in last month's Hifi World & Computer Audio (he was at the launch of the SACD & was told this by Rhett). Apparantly this is what happened: the original masters had been recorded onto a faulty batch of Ampex 560, which was then stored incorrectly, with the sadly inevitable result that their rotten adhesive started shedding oxide left, right, centre and every which way you care to imagine. So, what to do if your task is to release it on SACD? The engineers noticed that they'd archived their masters to DAT before they passed the point of total death, so the stereo SACD mix has been taken from these very tapes, and the surround mix derived from them. Not good. Kept that one quiet, didn't they.

That *is*naughty, especially the part about not labelling it as such -- shades of Silverline -- but then again, I tend to like DPL II 'surround mixes" that my A/V receiver syntehsizes from stereo stuff, at least as much as 'real' surround mixes -- in some cases I like them *better* (e.g. Harvest).

So I do believe the people who have raved about the Avalon disc, might actually be enjoying it.
 
Patrick Cleasby said:
Does anyone actually have a confirmation that Avalon is even due for a US release?

I now have authorisation to post the original editorial, courtesy of David Price at www.hi-fiworld.co.uk

"Suddenly, the room started spinning. It wasn’t through an excess of ice-cold Budwar (which I’d been drinking for purely medicinal reasons), but Rhett’s revelation that one of the biggest, most significant SACD re-releases to date would afford not one scintilla of the theoretical benefits of Direct Stream Digital coding – multichannel mixes notwithstanding. Why? Because it had come straight from an old 16bit, 48kHz PCM digital tape recording!"


Gawd. All I can say is, it would have been interesting to have solicited this drama queen's opinions of the disc *before* he'd been told the news that made the room spin for him. Wanna bet it would NOT have included the phrase 'deeply mediocre'?
 
Anyone who claims this is somehow a matrixed MC release hasn't heard it, no matter what the source of the info.
 
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