YES - Tales From Topographic Oceans 5.1 - Reality

[Frogmort]

Just noticed another weird edit on track 3 at 3:46 per track or 44:34 overall.

 

[rontoon]

I also received a shipping notice from Burning Shed on 10/3 and I'm still waiting...

 

[Frogmort]

I also received a shipping notice from Burning Shed on 10/3 and I'm still waiting...

That really sucks dude, I hope you get it today! :upthumb

To me, the dynamic range is off the charts and SW really did some amazing stuff, even by SW standards. The fidelity and surround is just great, but I did turn the bass up +8db! :yikes Not the overall bass, but the sub.

 

[quoddiophile]

I also received a shipping notice from Burning Shed on 10/3 and I'm still waiting...

Mine was sent the same time as yours and I got it on Friday. I hope this augurs well for you.

As you have probably guessed, it is well worth the wait.

Jim

 

[Frogmort]

How many people's father's son's buy them a dog turd - Michael Palin

 

[wavelength]

How many people's father's son's buy them a dog turd - Michael Palin

Hey Frogmort, what's up?

 

[webofsound]

Beautiful post- thanks so much for playing.

I totally agree that 70's Yes had a strong theme of spirituality running through their music- one of the things that separated them from most rock bands and one of many reasons their music was so attractive to me. I believe one of Jon's purposes is to celebrate and illuminate the divine, free from any specific Religion, but drawing from many different religious traditions. An attempt to de-insitutionalize religion, if you will. I know one of the effects CttE had on me was to start me seeking and free me from the strong Christian perspective in which I'd been raised and appreciate the Truth and beauty inherent in all religious traditions. Jon has been like a spiritual mentor to me, through his music.

I agree w/ all the examples you listed and agree w/ very well-stated descriptions, but would add many more to that list- though you pointed out most of the main ones. It was there from the beginning: the first album's "Survival" deals w/ the most basic spiritual question- why do bad things have to happen to the good? using the analogy of a baby bird dying. In Fragile, we have man dealing w/ death in SSotS, where-in Yes goes against the grain and actually kills the song's protagonist. I've always found PC, AGP and YIND very spiritual- the latter using the analogy of a Vietnam vet to illustrate self-acceptance in the face of some dastardly deeds done. Even that little ditty A Venture- highly under-rated track imo- speaks of a man's worth despite having a serious affliction (alcoholism).

CttE is filled w/ spirituality, from the TT's illustration of finding enlightenment, to AU&I, where I always felt that the you referred to is God (much to the consternation of my girlfriend, who thought it should be she- but the fact that it could be both a love song and a song of devotion to deity illustrates the many layers inherent in most Yessongs) to an amazingly evocative image of the crucifixion in SK: "cold, stainless nail, torn through the distance of man, as they regard the summit."

I love that paragraph on the textural signature's- very eloquent and right in line w/ my impressions! Ritual is indeed about celebrating life and Jon refers to such and also how it's a ritual when the band performs. I've always felt the ritualistic nature of great musical performances, where there is a common purpose among a large group, celebrating life and losing identity/ego in the communion w/ the crowd and band/orchestra. And there's that feedback loop mentioned earlier. Some of my most profound spiritual experiences have been at concerts.

And Yes, that moment of ultimate realization is so deep and well-portrayed in TRSOG; it shines even brighter in the new 5.1 mix. Great description of what's happening vocally in that section! An ever-opening flower indeed! (I had forgotten that was in the liner notes- always think Awaken when I hear those words)

My all-time fave Yes book, Mosbos' Yes, but what does it mean?, has a chapter entitled "Tales of Beethoven's Symphonies," where he compares Tales to a Beethoven symphony, has had a deep impact on how I view Tales- and the book as a whole has added much to my understanding of Yesmusic. And I googled Progressive Rock Reconsidered before I wrote this. Going for some hefty prices these days, but I'll find a copy.

I really appreciate your thoughts and info- thanks!

You're welcome Always happy to discuss this extraordinary music with a fellow Yes enthusiast. Hadn't heard of Mosbos' book, I'll have to check it out. Suffice to say, I think posterity will view Yes' music and the much of the other music from the same era with more reverence than it's afforded today.

 

[ProgRules]

You're welcome Always happy to discuss this extraordinary music with a fellow Yes enthusiast. Hadn't heard of Mosbos' book, I'll have to check it out. Suffice to say, I think posterity will view Yes' music and the much of the other music from the same era with more reverence than it's afforded today.

Well, since you cited your reference, it got me to recognize my oversight. Mosbo's a great book, but it's been OOP for a while- hope you can find a reasonably priced copy. PRR has some real high prices too, but there's some used copies at amazon for $20 shipped. Haven't pulled the trigger yet.

As for posterity- "Prog" seems to have made a comeback. At least it's no longer stigmatized and considered uncool. But who knows what the future holds. I think Tales and CttE are true works of art that should be appreciated over the ages. But whether they have the power to speak to future generations- only time will tell.

 

[webofsound]

Well, since you cited your reference, it got me to recognize my oversight. Mosbo's a great book, but it's been OOP for a while- hope you can find a reasonably priced copy. PRR has some real high prices too, but there's some used copies at amazon for $20 shipped. Haven't pulled the trigger yet.

As for posterity- "Prog" seems to have made a comeback. At least it's no longer stigmatized and considered uncool. But who knows what the future holds. I think Tales and CttE are true works of art that should be appreciated over the ages. But whether they have the power to speak to future generations- only time will tell.

I will keep my eyes out for a copy on amazon. I think the fact that works like CTTE and Tales are being remixed into 5.1 shows these recordings for what they are; true works of art, as you said. I'd say it's a matter of course that the legacy of Yes and similar artists will be reevaluated for the better. But I agree, only time will tell.

 

[ProgRules]

I will keep my eyes out for a copy on amazon. I think the fact that works like CTTE and Tales are being remixed into 5.1 shows these recordings for what they are; true works of art, as you said. I'd say it's a matter of course that the legacy of Yes and similar artists will be reevaluated for the better. But I agree, only time will tell.

I agree that the albums that get chosen for 5.1 re-mixes are generally classics, but the sad fact is that these releases sell to a small niche of mostly aging male Boomers. As fantastic as they are, they are unknown to the young folks who will carry music forward into the next decades. For these to last, I think they'll have to somehow make it into academia and be studied. Maybe at some point musical historians will recognize that "Prog" was the highest evolution of the rock genre and look for the best works in that sub-genre. But if they look to the RR HoF to see what was most meaningful, we're screwed. Or if they go by cultural relevance- never a strength of Prog.

But maybe someday some internet historian will be sifting through the detritus and happen upon a few pages of quadraphonicquad? WTF? But upon further examination he finds a place filled w/ brilliant, funny, discerning gentlemen and the treasures contained within these pages lead to a new renaissance!

 

[Frogmort]

Hey Frogmort, what's up?

Someone always seems to sneak into my house and post gibberish after I have a dozen beers or so. Actually I was watching Monty Python: Almost the Truth and thought that quote was crazy/funny. Not sure why I felt compelled to share it in this thread though.

Anyway, I'm really loving Tales in surround. It's going to be in heavy rotation for quite a while. There's so many layers and little things that I've never noticed before. A great surround mix really can make an old album seem fresh and new again.

 

[webofsound]

I agree that the albums that get chosen for 5.1 re-mixes are generally classics, but the sad fact is that these releases sell to a small niche of mostly aging male Boomers. As fantastic as they are, they are unknown to the young folks who will carry music forward into the next decades. For these to last, I think they'll have to somehow make it into academia and be studied. Maybe at some point musical historians will recognize that "Prog" was the highest evolution of the rock genre and look for the best works in that sub-genre. But if they look to the RR HoF to see what was most meaningful, we're screwed. Or if they go by cultural relevance- never a strength of Prog.

But maybe someday some internet historian will be sifting through the detritus and happen upon a few pages of quadraphonicquad? WTF? But upon further examination he finds a place filled w/ brilliant, funny, discerning gentlemen and the treasures contained within these pages lead to a new renaissance!

Well, generally speaking, I tend to agree that these 5.1 mixes and "Prog" in general do appeal to a small niche of mainly older listeners. However, speaking as a Gen Y-er, you'd probably be surprised how many people in my age group are receptive to this kind of music (though of course they're still in the minority) upon first listening, if they weren't aware of it beforehand. I think the key to the longevity of this music actually lies in what happens with 5.1 mixing. You mentioned the role of academics in preserving this music for the future - you might have heard of John Covach, a professor of popular music who wrote a musical analysis of CTTE (Google John Covach and CTTE, should come up as a PDF).

What's interesting about this analysis (in hindsight) is that it was obviously written using the original stereo mix as a reference. Yet, you wonder how much more in depth and/or serious the analysis would be if the 5.1 mix was available at that time. The simple fact is that the stereo mixes of a recording like CTTE leave an incredible amount to the imagination in that there is significant musical detail missing which is only audible in surround.

Which brings me to my main and probably quite controversial point - For every discerning listener/music academic that hears the stereo versions of these works as an entry point, you will have one more person who'll be less inclined to delve further into the genre, IMO. As great as the original stereo versions are, they are in light of the 5.1 mixes, merely a hint of what is really there. My instinct on this is that it takes a particular type of person (folks like you and I) to see past the patchwork of the original stereo mixes, and recognise the (many) moments of beauty in them as glimpses into something grander and more profound, which no matter how complicated or esoteric in the technical sense, still has a greater chance of resonating with the common man. And yes, let's not mention the RR HoF !!

And I love the image of some future historian, stumbling across these musings on 'Prog' in 5.1 which triggers another renaissance ! Haha ! Brilliant !!

 

[ProgRules]

You're Gen-Y? That's fantastic- and increases my already high estimation of you! You're the type of music fan that can keep these classics alive; open-minded and seeking beyond what's current. I have no such claims; while branching out, I've stayed for the most part solidly within the musical currents of my youth. But since I was fortunate enough to have come of age in the 60's and 70's, I had quite a wealth from which to draw.

But I love to see younger, more-open-minded music fans keeping the classics alive. I've been lurking in a thread at SHF about "Old-chella" w/ Stones, Dylan, et al. and it's refreshing to hear how many young people go to something like that. And it's heartening to hear that there are others your age receptive to this "dinosaur" music. I must say when I go out to see classic-era cover bands, I see a lot of young people.

Thanks for that Covach reference- looks very intriguing. I'll check it out when I have a few hours!

I hear what you're saying about 2.0 vs 5.1 and I don't disagree(and commend the eloquence). 5.1 mixes of these classics have for me become as they are entitled for Tales- THE Definitive Editions. It's like the magic was expanded from 2D to 3D; with more space you can here more of what's there and what's always been prominent is clarified even further. That being said, these remain works of art that were created in the stereo domain and can be easily appreciated in that presentation given a receptive listener, imo- even if receptive also implies "discerning." I don't think that the magic of Eddy Offord in Tales and CttE can be over-stated. He is just as important as any member of the band. The amount of info he packs into 2 channels while still keeping the music flowing is amazing. SW couldn't have worked all his magic w/o all those elements being there in the 1st place.

 

[zimmy]

I just got this disc and am listening to it now.
I just want to say that i am happy to finally hear this disc and that it is on Bluray.
Back in the days i didn´t bother to buy it.
My musical interest wasn´t so much into this kind of music.
I had listened to Yessongs and liked it but that was it.
I think it was wise to not listen to this one back then as it would have been to tough to get into.
My return to this kind of music has a lot to do with all the Steven Wilson discs that has come on Bluray with himself and other artists.

The big thrill to hear it now is much because of the fact that i haven´t heard one second of it before.
So it is for me an new album made with the classic Yes setup and made back in the glory days.

 

[webofsound]

Thanks, I only wish more people my age would give this music a chance. So much so that I sometimes become overzealous when it comes to discussing the merits of the original stereo mixes vs what the artist originally intended (though its possible technical limitations may have been a factor). I agree that Eddy Offord's input was absolutely critical not just in creating the original stereo mix but in helping create and refine the actual sounds in the studio especially in the case of CTTE where, in Bill Bruford's words, "..everybody had to run an election campaign on every issue.."

Nevertheless I find it curious that some sections of these original mixes sound extremely sparse in places, and jarringly so. Taking CTTE as an example, the pre-chorus sections that occur around 4:53 and 7:10 of the title track have no more than three (I'm not considering the vocals here) instruments contributing to the compositional texture (bass, guitar and the famous repeated note by R.Wakeman). In fact, most of the recording has that curious yet all too familiar discrepancy of having sections absolutely brimming with textural detail (the Ecllipse section of AYAI, for example) and compositional intricacy, contrasted with sections that really sound like a basic harmonic framework for something more elaborate. It isn't so much textural contrast that's bewildering but rather the difference in the approach to arrangement. With the stereo mix it's almost like you're listening to the work of two arrangers, one expert and one amateur. Whereas, of course, the 5.1 mix is a different matter altogether...

 

[jazyes]

Very perceptive. As a long time Yes fan (almost forty years), I've heard Steve describe the recording of CTTE. It was a rather disjointed process containing many different "bits and pieces" that had to be spliced and edited to make a coherent piece of music, which makes Eddie Offord's (often referred to as the sixth member of Yes) contribution that much more integral. He stated that many of the best bits of Yes music were simply lost and/or forgotten and the band members often found Eddie on the floor rummaging thru mounds of tape trying to retrieve the material. I also loved Eddie's work with ELP.

"And now for something completely different..." I've enjoyed QQ for quite sometime and would like to thank the "usual suspects" for their passion and dedication to 5.1. While this is my first post,
I've shared that passion since the early days of surround. Also, a big thanks to Steven Wilson for making so much of the music we love available in quality 5.1. I am patiently awaiting my copy of Tales
to arrive (already shipped from Import CD's).

 

[ssully]

I think I've discovered a major flaw in this otherwise fine release. The track titled "Dance of the Dawn (Studio Run-Through)" is no such thing. It is simply a remastered version of "The Revealing Science of God" from the Rhino TFTO CD. I even lined the two versions up in Adobe Audition and they stay in perfect sync from start to finish. This is true for both the CD and the blu-ray. The Rhino TFTO actually has the studio run through, so I know what it's supposed to sound like.

If I am right (and maybe I'm comparing the wrong tracks), I am somewhat surprised by this.

Yikes, none of our pre-release reviewers caught that??


Anyway, at least the real 'run through' version is already available as the Rhino bonus. It's an important version not least because some of it was used in the final version, and you can hear some of the editing work done (e.g., Wakeman's solo).

(Update: I see Declan's explanation, but it makes me wonder why they just didn't use the existing CD mastering of the run-through. Btw the original probably came from Steve Howe's collection)

 

[Frogmort]

Just in case anyone is interested, I've been playing around with 'The Revealing Science of God' and the extended bonus version at the end 'Dance of the Dawn' in Audacity just to find out what the differences really are.

It appears to be exactly the same except the intro is extended by 1:59 which was pretty obvious to figure out, and there is also a section that starts at 13:00 in the first album track where the band crescendos and stops with just a quiet arpeggiated guitar part. In the album version there are 3 sets of 4/4 played (the 2nd set has 2 extra quarter notes at the end if you want to be precise), with just mainly guitar in the first 2 sets but with added flute and sitar in the 3rd set.

However, in the bonus track this section starts at 14:59 (1:36:15 in overall album run-time) and there are 4 sets of 4/4 played (with the 2 extra quarter notes at the end of the 2nd and 4th set), with the first 3 sets being identical to the first album track, but in the extra added 4th set, the flute seems to basically repeat itself again, but the sitar goes to a higher 'happier' sound, basically matching the guitar part.

There is a difference of 2:17 between the original album version and the extended bonus version, with 1:59 added from the intro and 0:18 added from the extended guitar section.

Honestly on an album that only has 4 songs that are basically 20 minutes each, I really don't want to hear the exact same song twice, so since I've ripped it to my hard drive into flacs, I'll probably delete one of them from the folder (and obviously move the bonus version up to the beginning if I keep that one), but I'm just not sure which. I find the intro interesting since I've been listening to the original for about 30 years, but I'm also used to it starting right in to Jon's ethereal dreamy vocals. The extra guitar section is really blink and you'll miss it, but I do think I like it just a bit better in the extended version.

What are your opinions on this? Do you have a preference between the two?

 

[Lycanthrope]

What are your opinions on this? Do you have a preference between the two?

When I first heard the Rhino remaster, it totally screwed my brain - like you, listening to this album regularly for 36 years and it just wasn't right. But I did get used to it after a while. However it sounds rough and amateurish in the new mix, whereas the original start sounds lush.

So, got my BD today and having a first listen - half-way into TRSoG. Wow, just wow! The clarify of the instruments is just amazing - especially the drums IMO, the cymbals are so sharp and fresh sounding. The placing of the instruments is very good - no real gimmicks, but some nice width and dynamics.

I have to admit getting impatient for the CD to arrive, so nicked the lossless stereo off the web to keep my vital signs up. It's a great stereo mix already, but sounds a bit too narrow in places - that being said, I compared with the original, which now sounds mono by comparison.

Mr Wilson, you are a star, thank you!

Will score it when I've heard the whole thing, bit I can imagine it being less than 10.

 

[skindzier]

Frogmort - I'm with you. No need for two almost-identical 20 minute tracks. I like the extended one & moved that to the front. I kept the original, but will not play it most times I listen to the album. I always thought the beginning of TRSOG was kind of jarring, like it needed something in front. Problem solved. I think the intro sets up up the album theme nicely too.