which records in particular are we talking about?
Mobile Fidelity - the digital step in MFSL vinyl debacle
- Thread starter windhoek
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Impossible to ever really know what was put on either but we do know this.
All master tapes are heavily "monkeyed" with before they're cut to vinyl. They have to be to conform to the media's weaknesses. Have you ever read the instructions that a vinyl cutting lab puts out? Here's two, I could list half dozen more but they all say the same.
https://www.gottagrooverecords.com/vinyl-mastering/https://www.sageaudio.com/blog/mastering/what-is-mastering-for-vinyl.php
I really have no idea why you hear what you hear on your LP's but the odd's are highly likely it wasn't on the master tape.
I had a strange experience with a couple MoFi LP's that I had stored away for at least 15 or more years. They had been properly stored in an upright, lightly packed vertical position in my basement where it stayed reasonably cool all the time. Anyway, back in 2009 when I decided to move to FL and sell my large vinyl collection, I set about doing needledrop recordings of everything. On 2 or 3 of the MoFi LP's, while trying to play them, I got about the loudest POP you ever heard with the stylus completely jumping out of the groove. On close visual inspection I found large dents in the grooves, almost as if you took a pin, heated it red hot, an pushed it into the groove causing what looked like a super tiny volcano in that spot.
I've no idea what caused this, maybe some type of out-gassing of the plastic, just a guess, no real idea. All I know for sure is I took a bad beating on what should have been a big collectors item value at the time.. I got big bucks for the rest of the MoFi discs but I wouldn't lie to the buyer about the issues on those discs.
I did talk about it on the net at that time but no one else had any ideas then either.
I've no idea what caused this, maybe some type of out-gassing of the plastic, just a guess, no real idea. All I know for sure is I took a bad beating on what should have been a big collectors item value at the time.. I got big bucks for the rest of the MoFi discs but I wouldn't lie to the buyer about the issues on those discs.
I did talk about it on the net at that time but no one else had any ideas then either.
jimfisheye
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
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It could be compression effects altering something. Net raising the lower level program as the example mentioned. It's probably simply a different mastering approach though. I don't mean the technical parts for vinyl. An intentional different approach or different mix itself (followed by a new mastering).
Vinyl distortions and limitations at worst should sound like an analog generation loss and/or distortion on the louder parts. If you hear something strikingly different, it's probably baked in. In the same way that CDs don't sound thin and shrill by format limitation but by "garbage in, garbage out".
CD (16 bit, 44.1k that is) doesn't have any fidelity limitation. There's the caveat that you have to successfully master the audio into 16 bit at 44.1k. Don't truncate resolution upstream with a low signal in 16 bit format. Don't use suspect AD converters to capture the original analog at 44.1k. So, there's room to screw up there for sure!
But then there's this. Let's be ultra demanding and say we will not accept a signal resolution of less than 8 bits for the lowest level sounds. With 16 bit format, that approach leaves us with a 48db dynamic range still with 20-20k spectrum. How many cartridges do that and how many pressings actually deliver it in the first place?
Anyway, MFSL! This all hits differently now. They might not have been perfect and there probably were all kinds of "shit... just do this" moves. They struck me as ambitious back when it was often hard to deliver analog sound. And they gave me upgraded seats as it were for a handful of favorite albums. Now it hits like nostalgia or novelty. The digital recording/storage formats wipe the floor with vinyl. Sure, be serious about making a good copy in the format if you're going to do that. Just don't compare it as though were still in the 12 bit days of digital audio.
Vinyl distortions and limitations at worst should sound like an analog generation loss and/or distortion on the louder parts. If you hear something strikingly different, it's probably baked in. In the same way that CDs don't sound thin and shrill by format limitation but by "garbage in, garbage out".
CD (16 bit, 44.1k that is) doesn't have any fidelity limitation. There's the caveat that you have to successfully master the audio into 16 bit at 44.1k. Don't truncate resolution upstream with a low signal in 16 bit format. Don't use suspect AD converters to capture the original analog at 44.1k. So, there's room to screw up there for sure!
But then there's this. Let's be ultra demanding and say we will not accept a signal resolution of less than 8 bits for the lowest level sounds. With 16 bit format, that approach leaves us with a 48db dynamic range still with 20-20k spectrum. How many cartridges do that and how many pressings actually deliver it in the first place?
Anyway, MFSL! This all hits differently now. They might not have been perfect and there probably were all kinds of "shit... just do this" moves. They struck me as ambitious back when it was often hard to deliver analog sound. And they gave me upgraded seats as it were for a handful of favorite albums. Now it hits like nostalgia or novelty. The digital recording/storage formats wipe the floor with vinyl. Sure, be serious about making a good copy in the format if you're going to do that. Just don't compare it as though were still in the 12 bit days of digital audio.
Way back in the day, the MoFi vinyl was like Gods Gift to us rockers.
It's improvement in noise floor and inner detail could be amazing.
That was till the CD came along. Then the squashed hockey pucks went into the basement. LOL
It's improvement in noise floor and inner detail could be amazing.
That was till the CD came along. Then the squashed hockey pucks went into the basement. LOL
There has been a 'digital' step in vinyl cutting for decades, even before the CD era. It's called a digital delay line and it dates to the early 1970s, though not in widespread use until the 1980s. Look it up.
Even if I listened to vinyl, I wouldn't give a rat's rear if Mofi uses an intermediate digital step (though why DSD?) and neither should anyone with human ears.
Even if I listened to vinyl, I wouldn't give a rat's rear if Mofi uses an intermediate digital step (though why DSD?) and neither should anyone with human ears.
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windhoek
The Phoolosopher
Official statement:
"We at Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab are aware of customer complaints regarding use of digital technology in our mastering chain. We apologize for using vague language, allowing false narratives to propagate, and for taking for granted the goodwill and trust our customers place in the Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab brand. We recognize our conduct has resulted in both anger and confusion in the marketplace. Moving forward, we are adopting a policy of 100% transparency regarding the provenance of our audio products. We are immediately working on updating our websites, future printed materials, and packaging — as well as providing our sales and customer service representatives with these details. We will also provide clear, specific definitions when it comes to Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab marketing branding such as Original Master Recording (OMR) and UltraDisc One-Step (UD1S). We will backfill source information on previous releases so Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab customers can feel as confident in owning their products as we are in making them. We thank you for your past support and hope you allow us to continue to provide you the best-sounding records possible — an aim we've achieved and continue to pursue with pride. Jim Davis President, Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab"
"We at Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab are aware of customer complaints regarding use of digital technology in our mastering chain. We apologize for using vague language, allowing false narratives to propagate, and for taking for granted the goodwill and trust our customers place in the Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab brand. We recognize our conduct has resulted in both anger and confusion in the marketplace. Moving forward, we are adopting a policy of 100% transparency regarding the provenance of our audio products. We are immediately working on updating our websites, future printed materials, and packaging — as well as providing our sales and customer service representatives with these details. We will also provide clear, specific definitions when it comes to Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab marketing branding such as Original Master Recording (OMR) and UltraDisc One-Step (UD1S). We will backfill source information on previous releases so Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab customers can feel as confident in owning their products as we are in making them. We thank you for your past support and hope you allow us to continue to provide you the best-sounding records possible — an aim we've achieved and continue to pursue with pride. Jim Davis President, Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab"
IHMO, A first class posting by President Jim Davis.
They can't change the past, only make better choices in the future
windhoek
The Phoolosopher
Yeah, it brings clarity to the matter for sure along with a welcome promise of transparency going forwards; which MF customers can rightfully expect considering the premium nature of MF products. As you say, the past can't be changed but at least going forward everybody will know what they're buying.
That's all well and good and I don't care what MoFi does or how they do it as long as it sounds great. What is more important to me is that they get off the "stereo is king" schneid and start delving into the realm of multichannel recordings. So I keep dreaming...
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That’s great, but MFSL has been throwing marketing BS out there for decades.
My guess is they will try to twist this negative into a positive by spinning it as their process actually makes for a better record (when actually the prime benefits are it allows them to do some albums they otherwise might not be able to license and to do far more copies of these high profit margin pressings).
If they do as I think they will, this too will be more BS because if it was really true, they would have tried to make that case 6-8 years ago - not after the curtain was pulled away.
BS is rampant in audio and MFSL are small players in that game.
Look at the crap that flows out of the cable/wire industry, now there are some real pro's. LOL
windhoek
The Phoolosopher
There's no denying it, it looks like the apology has been highly mastered!
Moving forward, perhaps an updated version of the SPARS code would be a useful start. Even for their vinyl releases!
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That's fine. If they stand by their word it will be a Win-Win for everyone.
I wouldn’t call them small players at all.BS is rampant in audio and MFSL are small players in that game.
Look at the crap that flows out of the cable/wire industry, now there are some real pro's. LOL
In the BS market they are.
I wouldn’t call them small players at all. There’s a reason this has created such a dustup.
There's probably 15 full page color ads in Stereophile and the same in TAS, full of BS, pseudoscience fairytales, and like lies from cable snake-oil purveyors this month alone. Most likely a billion dollars or more year scam on unwitting audiophiles.
MFSL isn't even in the ball park for their little fib.
Sorry
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Sal, when you make such claims .... first and foremost ...have you ever ACTUALLY tried UPGRADED Interconnects, SPEAKER CABLES, upgraded power cords and power conditioners or are you basing it on WHAT YOU'VE READ. On a basic receiver, the sonic difference isn't as pronounced as when dealing with higher end separate components. I know because I have both. And upgrading to better interconnects, etc. on SEPARATES most definitely equates to better sound ....HANDS DOWN. And I have returned expensive cables because they didn't make the grade but kept others because the upgrade definitely made a positive difference!
And the higher end technology invariably trickles down to lower end components, as well, which eventually = better sound....for much less!
At one time, a 13" OLED TV cost $10K ....now you can buy a 77" OLED TV for $2~3K [or even LESS]!
