First Hybrid DVD-A/V Project

Hi folks

I'm attempting my first compilation disc as a menu-less hybrid DVD-A/V.

The DVD-A doesn't seem to be an issue, but I'm having some trouble with the DVD-V.

When I open DVD Lab Pro, I delete Movie 1 and then add an Audio Title, placing my AC3 in Audio 1 and DTS in Audio 2.

When I hit Compile I get an error message saying Movie 1 has no video, and I should add a video or delete Movie 1 which I have already done.

I seem to be missing something. Any assistance appreciated.

Neb-Maat-Re said:

Hi folks

I'm attempting my first compilation disc as a menu-less hybrid DVD-A/V.

The DVD-A doesn't seem to be an issue, but I'm having some trouble with the DVD-V.

When I open DVD Lab Pro, I delete Movie 1 and then add an Audio Title, placing my AC3 in Audio 1 and DTS in Audio 2.

When I hit Compile I get an error message saying Movie 1 has no video, and I should add a video or delete Movie 1 which I have already done.

I seem to be missing something. Any assistance appreciated.

Click to expand...

I need help as well with DVD Lab Pro creating the DVD-V side once the Dolby / DTS files are created. Somehow we should all put together a step-by-step manual.

Hopefully someone can answer your question above about DVD Lab Pro.

Old Quad Guy said:

I need help as well with DVD Lab Pro creating the DVD-V side once the Dolby / DTS files are created. Somehow we should all put together a step-by-step manual.

Hopefully someone can answer your question above about DVD Lab Pro.

Click to expand...

Did the file i sent you not help you?



OD

oxforddickie said:

Did the file i sent you not help you?



OD

Click to expand...

Yes it did, thank you very much. Could I post this for others? I've got the link ready to go.

One thing I meant to ask, but I think I get it now, was how do you put the DTS And Dobly on when there is only one "Audio Title 1," but I get it now. There are 2 streams for audio already setup there. Simple. Thank you very, very much. This makes life so simple!

If it's ok to post template, I'll create a simple step-by-step PDF manual for what to do. Thanks.

Yes, of course you can, but do remember that i use the first track for DTS and the second for Dolby Digital. if you want to change it around you need to alter the audio selection pages

oxforddickie said:

Yes, of course you can, but do remember that i use the first track for DTS and the second for Dolby Digital. if you want to change it around you need to alter the audio selection pages

Click to expand...

Ok, thank you. That was the only thing I wasn't sure about. No excuses now for not being able to do this. Thanks.

Here is the link to template, I'll post a manual later, but of course ask questions when in doubt:

http://quadraphonic.info/files/DVD-LabPro_Template_2011_07_21.zip

Old Quad Guy said:

Hopefully someone can answer your question above about DVD Lab Pro.

Click to expand...

Thanks OQG. I thought I'd posted answer to my own question, but it appears I didn't save it.

My issue was that I only thought I was deleting Movie1. In fact, I was only hiding it from view. Once I worked out how to really delete it everything worked beautifully.

Hey Guys.

Problem #1 here - NEVER put the DTS as Audio #1 - it's out of spec. The reason is that track #1 for audio cannot be an optional stream type as many players cannot output it.
Stream #1 must be either Dullby or LPCM.

Problem #2 here is that there is a very nasty bug in DLP with Audio-Only titles, and that is obvious when using segued tracks, as the cells are set to non seamless by default.
Even if you are using a single contiguous stream this will happen.
The effect is that the player will empty it's buffers at the track point, causing a glitch. Doesn't happen on all players but a good number of them will be affected.
We found this bug during ITCOTCK production......and there is a fix too.
Launch PGCEdit (donationware) and double click each TT item in each VTS, and set the cells to seamless, save & then write the disc.

Problem #3 is that you must turn OFF the abstraction layer when compiling the disc, or else you will again be out of spec on importing into the DVDA application.
This means you must write all your button links & FIRST PLAY options manually with the "Custom VM" command.

Thanks for your very important posting, i'd like to make afew points though:

Firstly i agree that the spec states that Dolby Digital is always set to be the first audio track. There's no technical reason for this though, it's only because every DVD player has a DD decoder built in and it enables the disc to be played by everyone as soon as it's inserted into the machine.

BUT, my audio releases are not destined to be played by normal consumers, but by people interested in high quality sound, so if they don't use the DVD-A section, it's a fair bet they will use DTS. This, i believe is born out by a poll i've been running on my blog, where i asked what audio stream they used. The resuts are:

MLP: 45%
DTS: 42%
DD: 1%

As DD is only used by 1% of people who download from the blog i still feel it perfectly acceptable to have DTS as the first stream so the disc can be used as if a CD. There's never been an issue with this, and as i say, there's acctually no techinical reason why DTS can't be on the first track.

I must thank you for the information regarding the DTS gap issue, wish i'd known about this before.

If OQG would like me to re-do the file i sent him i will he so he can re-distribute it here, and even though i've not had a single problem, i'll set DD as the first track so as to keep everyone happy.

Neil, your a star, many thanks



OD

Thanks Neil and oxforddickie very much for the info.

Yes, oxforddickie if it's ok, could we change the file so that it defaults to Dolby? I'll still keep the old template up so those who wish to do DTS first, but with Neil's warning that it is "out of spec" if one is trying to do a commercial disc. Thanks.

At some point I'd like a try at a Multi-Channel mix from a local band or original music and learn to create a commercial "in spec" DVD-A. The thinking is, if a manual could be created from start to finish, step-by-step how to do a DVD-A/V, more folks could do commercial DVD-Audio discs. Which IMHO such tools should have been there for the average person from the beginning to help the format flourish. Nevertheless, thanks to the wise folks with the knowledge here, we can complete such a manual. I know from discussions I've had with folks and bands (some are hardcore music engineer's) that Hi-Rez Multi-channel and Stereo discs are of great interest, once they understand they even exist! As with all formats, DVD-Audio is not going away and is still a great format for music.

oxforddickie said:

Firstly i agree that the spec states that Dolby Digital is always set to be the first audio track. There's no technical reason for this though, it's only because every DVD player has a DD decoder built in and it enables the disc to be played by everyone as soon as it's inserted into the machine.

Click to expand...

Actually, there is a very good technical reason for this.
If the default stream #1 is DTS, then there is a very real chance certain people will get White Noise out of their system - if their player cannot handle DTS then it becomes more than a possibility. It's rare, admittedly, but it does happen.
Best way is to use custom VM commands in DLP here and an Audio Setup menu.
Code in Audio Setup would be as follows:
Dullby Select - SetSTN (audio = 0), LinkPGCN x (where x is the number of the playlist menu - see below)
DTS Select - SetSTN (audio = 1), LinkPGCN x (linking to the same playlist)
The reason to write the code manually is that you must turn off the Abstraction Layer when compiling - this is an option in DLP thanks to Oscar being a top chap & adding it for us.
To get the menu number, simply count the menus in the VTS. For example, suppose we are in VTS1, and we have the following content:
ROOT MENU = Main menu (Play, Playlist, Audio Setup) = PGCN 1
Playlist = PGCN 2 (assuming it is the second menu in the VTS list, as seen in the structure list - not the connections window)
Audio Setup = PGCN 3.
So our buttons would read as follows:
PLAY - Custom VM Command = JumpVTS_PTT (tt 1, ptt 1)
PLAYLIST = LinkPGCN 2
AUDIO SETUP = LinkPGCN 3

Playlist buttons would be as follows:
TRACK 1 = JumpVTS_PTT (tt 1, ptt 1)
TRACK 2 = JumpVTS_PTT (tt 1, ptt 2)
etc.
BACK TO MAIN MENU = LinkPGCN 1

RESTRICTIONS:
1 - Each VTS must contain identical assets. So if VTS 1 TT 1 has Dullby & DTS at a 16:9 Aspect Ratio, all other titles in VTS 1 must be the same.
If we also have additional content in, say, LPCM then these must go into a different VTS. This applies to 16-bit and 24-bit - you cannot mix bit depths in the same VTS either.
(we did this, and hit a problem where 3 streams were 24-bit & 1 was 16-bit. Most players handle this with no problems, but some do not & play the 16-bit stream at the same data rate as the 24-bit, and you end up with what sounds like Pinky & Perky on bad acid)
2 - Jumping across VTS from one to another is restricted, and you cannot go from a menu in VTS 1 to a menu in VTS 2 or a title in VTS 2.
To get around this you need to use VMGM menus instead. It sounds more complex than it really is - if, for example, you have the following setup:
VTS 1 = Dullby/DTS 16:9
VTS 2 = 24-bit LPCM 16:9
VTS 3 = 16-bit LPCM 16:9
You would need the following VMGM menus, all blank (unless you are using motion transitions of course)
VMGM 1 (in the VM commands this would be "pgc 1") = VTS 1 Entry
VMGM 2 = VTS 2 Entry
VMGM 3 = VTS 3 Entry
You then set up a Pre Command in each PGC that either goes to the Root Menu in the target VTS or else straight to an asset via a dummy root menu.
Code for menu link = JumpSS VTSM (vts x, tt 1, menu ROOT) - where x is the number ofthe VTS being linked to.
Code for direct title link = As above, but with an additional PRE command in a blank dummy Root menu = JumpVTS_TTx (where x is the title number)
Code for VTS2 Root Menu back to VTS 1 root menu = CallSS VMGM (pgc 1, rsm_cell 1) - modify the pgc number as appropriate.

First Play & Title commands:
FP = JumpSS VTSM (VTS 1, tt 1, menu ROOT)
Title = as above.

Title POST commands for multi-VTS titles = CallSS VMGM (pgc 1, rsm_cell 1) - this will take you to the root menu in VTS 1.
Title POST command on single VTS = CallSS VTSM (menu ROOT)

I'll try to put a complete list together, but each disc is different.

some time ago i bumped into problem when placed stereo and DTS streams in VIDEO_TS. albeit i was able to navigate to every stream
(PPCM, DTS, Stereo, Credit) from main menu, the players did refuse to decode DTS and thus upon selection of DTS from menu the
players started playback but with no any sound out of speakers. research of this issue revealed that those both stream in single VTS
does confuse the players as they recognise DTS stream as a regular PCM thus this two streams should be in different VTS.
but then popped up another problem - access to stream in second VTS from main menu during the authoring of DVDA in DiscWelder.
anyway, simplest solution i found is bridges in/out for second VTS to menu of VIDEO_TS part of DVDA.
here is the screenshot and maybe for someone it will be helpfull.



i'm not using DD at all. found it to be pretty obsolete as seems all present DVD players can handle DTS.
but what i'm curious about - is there any way to trick DVDLab to make active menu navigation to be up on screen during playback?

I have a Pioneer DVL-700, which was the first DVD player released in the US, and it puts out white-noise if a DTS signal is the first audio stream on the disc. There are a few discs with DTS authored as the #1 stream and I've had to jump for the volume control when the noise comes blaring out of the speakers. And it's not even decodable - it's just white noise.

I'm sure glad DTS didn't get their way with the DVD consortium - they wanted DTS on DVD to be encoded exactly the same way as an LD - as a standard 16-bit LPCM signal with no special bit required to tell the player its DTS. I have two test DTS DVDs authored that way in fact - the #2 DVD has "Contact" opening credits and sounds wonderful. (I also have a very early Dolby Digital demo LaserDisc with AC-3 5.1 encoded @ 320, 384, 440 and 640 kbps on the LPCM tracks just like DTS so no RF demodulator is needed - it has no FM analog tracks so as to give a wider picture bandwidth) Too bad Sony never used the SDDS DVD bit and the 2.2 mbps they were given on DVD's for 7.1 channel ATRAC Pro encoded digital sound. Although I wonder if they would have used the 5 across the front - MPEG-II for DVD can do 7.1 with 5 speakers across the front but no discs have ever used it. With 7.1 LPCM on Blu-ray, I always figured Sony would start calling it SDDS.

Thanks everyone for the help and info. I suppose were talking 2 different animals by now for what each persons needs are. Home brew DVD-A/V's for an individuals wants/needs are, and those who need to be "in Spec" for commercial needs.

So, is a simple Template to download possible or does one need to manually Code in "Audio Setup" using VM commands in order to be "in Spec" to create the DVD-V portion of disc?

Another type disc would be Dolby/DTS and have a PPCM option as well using 24 bit files. If files are 24 bit, does it matter what the kHz of such files are? Most likely would be dealing with 24 bit, 44.1, 48 or 96 kHz files. Do you drop the .Wav files in or do we need to do anything with them such as encode them into another file type?

How do we turn off the abstraction layer when compiling the disc?

Can anyone dumb down the instructions a bit or give us steps on how to put a disc together? I've been trying to learn this program, but it is a bit much as it does a lot. Thanks.

Old Quad Guy said:

How do we turn off the abstraction layer when compiling the disc?

Click to expand...

And what happens if we don't?

0tto said:

some time ago i bumped into problem when placed stereo and DTS streams in VIDEO_TS. albeit i was able to navigate to every stream
(PPCM, DTS, Stereo, Credit) from main menu, the players did refuse to decode DTS and thus upon selection of DTS from menu the
players started playback but with no any sound out of speakers. research of this issue revealed that those both stream in single VTS
does confuse the players as they recognise DTS stream as a regular PCM thus this two streams should be in different VTS.
but then popped up another problem - access to stream in second VTS from main menu during the authoring of DVDA in DiscWelder.
anyway, simplest solution i found is bridges in/out for second VTS to menu of VIDEO_TS part of DVDA.
here is the screenshot and maybe for someone it will be helpfull.

View attachment 4249

i'm not using DD at all. found it to be pretty obsolete as seems all present DVD players can handle DTS.
but what i'm curious about - is there any way to trick DVDLab to make active menu navigation to be up on screen during playback?

Click to expand...

Okay, I can see a couple of things here.
1 - your Video_TS will be out of spec, as you are using the Abstraction Layer - those bit bridges are not allowed as they are controlled from within the Abstraction Layer of DLP.
2 - Any player that confuses the DTS stream for an LPCM one is in trouble, and either
A - has a firmware problem, or
B - cannot cope with DTS properly.
Either way, it always works here - it just has to be authored properly. All our commercial (and otherwise) DVDA use LPCM/DTS in the same timeline/title, and it works.
I'm actually surprised you do not get warnings when importing these VTS titles into Chrome in the first place - it should tell you that you are out of spec.
3 - Chrome cannot pick the streams. If you use 2 streams, Chrome cannot be set to select stream #2 - it's a limitation (sadly only one of a few nasty "gotchas" in Chrome) of a poor abstraction layer tool. For the money it cost, Chrome was overpriced given it's feature set - this is why we stopped using it & I would sell my license if I could as it is useless to us.

Accessing the second title in DLP's project really should not be hard. Again, I have stopped using Chrome because of the problems.

Old Quad Guy said:

Thanks everyone for the help and info. I suppose were talking 2 different animals by now for what each persons needs are. Home brew DVD-A/V's for an individuals wants/needs are, and those who need to be "in Spec" for commercial needs.

So, is a simple Template to download possible or does one need to manually Code in "Audio Setup" using VM commands in order to be "in Spec" to create the DVD-V portion of disc?

Another type disc would be Dolby/DTS and have a PPCM option as well using 24 bit files. If files are 24 bit, does it matter what the kHz of such files are? Most likely would be dealing with 24 bit, 44.1, 48 or 96 kHz files. Do you drop the .Wav files in or do we need to do anything with them such as encode them into another file type?

How do we turn off the abstraction layer when compiling the disc?

Can anyone dumb down the instructions a bit or give us steps on how to put a disc together? I've been trying to learn this program, but it is a bit much as it does a lot. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Let's try & break this down a little.
Firstly, to guarantee playback, and I cannot state this enough, NEVER go out of spec. It might well work for you, but sooner or later it will fail.
When it does fail, it can damage equipment because of the white noise blast - admittedly it is at -6dBFS but this is still painful.

A single template is not really an option - it's much better to code manually for each disc, and once you get a few done it's not too hard.
I find that keeping a notebook for code examples really helps out.

Setting for DD/DTS in VTS1 and PCM in VTS2 (you cannot use PPCM in Video_TS as it is MLP by another name & not in the specs) is simple.
Again, LPCM must be either 48 or 96kHz in Video_TS. 96kHz is problematic not only because of the file sizes, but also because you run a very real risk of having your lovingly crafted mix either truncated (on the fly with no dither) to 16-bits or SRC (again on the fly) down to 48kHz.
It's generally better (at least, I think it is) to leave LPCM at 24/48 and place all 96kHz material in the Audio_TS.
In the ATS, you can use whatever you like. Anything from CD resolution to 24/192 is allowed in stereo and from 16/44.1 to 24/48 in 5.1
Going above 24/48 in 5.1 requires mandatory MLP encoding.

Turning off the Abstraction Layer is a checkbox at compile time - this will be followed with a warning asking you to confirm you really want to do this and another one telling you the disc may end up unplayable if you screw up (which we all do).

As for how to do this, I can only suggest this:
Send me a layout - IE, what the content is, for the Video_TS.
I will work out a template for that disc & return it to you.
Honestly, it's not as hard as it looks - otherwise I would not be able to do it. DLP has a wonderful, almost hidden help here too - in Custom VM command dialogue there is a "Quick Link" option which will give you the base code you need - just adapt for the lack of the AL.
Another option is to draw in your link as normal, and then copy the code when you invoke the dialogue for Custom VM Command.

Neb-Maat-Re said:

And what happens if we don't?

Click to expand...

Things can go seriously wrong.

neil wilkes said:

Another option is to draw in your link as normal, and then copy the code when you invoke the dialogue for Custom VM Command.

Click to expand...

I did this but hit a brick wall when using the option to create a 'Change Audio' page. The buttons failed to work, once selected they went nowhere. Any ideas?