Atmos novice questions

[Mistee]

Hi everyone, I have some Atmos newbie Qs and am hoping I can post them here. (I've checked and it seems to be the most suitable place.)

I’ve just upgraded from a humble 5.1 to a 5.1.4 Atmos system and I have four main questions that I hope someone can help with. I’ve upgraded my 15-or-so-years old Onkyo AVR (which was seriously packing up, sadly) to a Yamaha RX-A8A ‘Aventage’ (at the hifi shop’s recommendation) and added four ceiling speakers, again at the hifi shop's recommendation and which they installed. The technician guy who installed the speakers did a good job in putting them in the ceiling I think (it took quite a while and he ended up pretty filthy), however he appeared to lack confidence when it came to wiring and calibrating things. I don't think he was that familiar with the Yamaha AVR and after he left four of the speakers were still silent. Two on the right and the back two ceiling ones. I got someone else from the store to come out and he apologised and has rewired the AVR. I can now hear music from all the speakers but my confidence in them has been a little shaken because of the first guy, so I guess I'm especially after any thoughts and reassurances.

You see, while it sounds great -- and unexpected in some ways, requiring an adjustment to my listening -- I can’t stop the nagging feeling that it might not have been set up right and I’m not listening to Atmos to its fullest potential for my system. Worse, perhaps I've truly made some significant mistakes. I’ve known 5.1 for years but this is all new to me.

Here are my four main questions...

1. The display on my old Onkyo used to tell me what signal I was listening to. This one doesn’t, so there’s no reassuring ‘Dolby Atmos’ message on the AVR for me to know my multiplayer (an old and faithful Cambridge Audio multiplayer, which someone once said is similar to an Oppo in its design) is sending the signal in the right way (not to mention, the AVR has recognised it the right way). There are a lot of Yamaha AVR program choices, but the two main ones seem to be ‘Surround AI’ and ‘Surround Decoder’. I’m not sure which of these I’m meant to be setting it to, to get true Dolby Atmos? Maybe it doesn’t matter and I can set it to either one? I'm tending to sit on Surround AI for what I hope is Atmos, and when I'm selecting quad or 5.1 I either use the decoder, so the system represents the format faithfully, or the Surround AI function if I want the quad, 5.1, CDs etc to also utilise the ceiling speakers.

2. When I look at the Cambridge Audio ‘Info’ on my TV screen, it still says ‘Dolby TrueHD 7.1 48k’, even when I’ve selected Dolby Atmos on the blu-ray. I would feel more reassured if it now said Dolby Atmos. In fact, nothing anywhere in my new Dolby Atmos upgrade actually says Dolby Atmos! Is this normal?

3. I’ve tried to turn off the speaker configuration in the Cambridge multiplayer, as I’ve already done the speaker configuration through the Yamaha (with the microphone it comes with) and I don't want two speaker configurations happening at once. That can't be a good thing. But there doesn’t seem to be any way to turn it off in the Cambridge. So I’ve at least set it to 7.1, the bigger of the two configuration options. I own the new DSOTM Blu-ray and when I run the little speaker check program that they so thoughtfully included, all the speakers are present and correct, so I'm heartened by that. So I'm hoping this is right?

4. I've set the Cambridge HDMI out to bitstream (not auto). Again, I hope this is right?

Any advice or reassurances that I’m doing the right things gratefully received. Thank you!

 

[humprof]

Hi everyone, I have some Atmos newbie Qs and am hoping I can post them here. (I've checked and it seems to be the most suitable place.)

I’ve just upgraded from a humble 5.1 to a 5.1.4 Atmos system and I have four main questions that I hope someone can help with. I’ve upgraded my 15-or-so-years old Onkyo AVR (which was seriously packing up, sadly) to a Yamaha RX-A8A ‘Aventage’ (at the hifi shop’s recommendation) and added four ceiling speakers, again at the hifi shop's recommendation and which they installed. The technician guy who installed the speakers did a good job in putting them in the ceiling I think (it took quite a while and he ended up pretty filthy), however he appeared to lack confidence when it came to wiring and calibrating things. I don't think he was that familiar with the Yamaha AVR and after he left four of the speakers were still silent. Two on the right and the back two ceiling ones. I got someone else from the store to come out and he apologised and has rewired the AVR. I can now hear music from all the speakers but my confidence in them has been a little shaken because of the first guy, so I guess I'm especially after any thoughts and reassurances.

You see, while it sounds great -- and unexpected in some ways, requiring an adjustment to my listening -- I can’t stop the nagging feeling that it might not have been set up right and I’m not listening to Atmos to its fullest potential for my system. Worse, perhaps I've truly made some significant mistakes. I’ve known 5.1 for years but this is all new to me.

Here are my four main questions...

1. The display on my old Onkyo used to tell me what signal I was listening to. This one doesn’t, so there’s no reassuring ‘Dolby Atmos’ message on the AVR for me to know my multiplayer (an old and faithful Cambridge Audio multiplayer, which someone once said is similar to an Oppo in its design) is sending the signal in the right way (not to mention, the AVR has recognised it the right way). There are a lot of Yamaha AVR program choices, but the two main ones seem to be ‘Surround AI’ and ‘Surround Decoder’. I’m not sure which of these I’m meant to be setting it to, to get true Dolby Atmos? Maybe it doesn’t matter and I can set it to either one? I'm tending to sit on Surround AI for what I hope is Atmos, and when I'm selecting quad or 5.1 I either use the decoder, so the system represents the format faithfully, or the Surround AI function if I want the quad, 5.1, CDs etc to also utilise the ceiling speakers.

It is peculiar that the front panel of your Yamaha doesn't display "Atmos" when you're playing Atmos. I've only glanced at the manual, but from p. 30, it seems that the panel should at least be displaying which speakers are active at any given moment? (See also p. 242.)

As for Surround AI and Surround Decoder: as I read it (pp. 132-136), both of those modes activate DSPs that generate immersive audio from stereo images--they're upmixers, in other words. "Surround AI" seems to be a proprietary Yahama thing, whereas "Surround Decode" (141) lets you choose between Dolby Surround, Neural:X, and Auro-3D. For Atmos playback, I'd be inclined to select "Straight Decode" (140) or "Pure Direct" (142) mode instead. (Perversely, the page of the manual devoted to Dolby Atmos [143] is singularly unhelpful.) And to test whether Atmos is playing back properly over your system, you could download the free channel test track from IAA.com--although I guess the track on the DSOTM Blu-Ray does more or less the same thing.

(Also: the Speaker section of the AVR's setup menu should, in principle, let you know which speakers you have connected and how they're named & configured. Judging by your Question #3, it seems you've done that.)

2. When I look at the Cambridge Audio ‘Info’ on my TV screen, it still says ‘Dolby TrueHD 7.1 48k’, even when I’ve selected Dolby Atmos on the blu-ray. I would feel more reassured if it now said Dolby Atmos. In fact, nothing anywhere in my new Dolby Atmos upgrade actually says Dolby Atmos! Is this normal?

The Cambridge Audio is an older, pre-Atmos player, right? (Okay, so are most Oppos and other Blu-Ray players.) But Atmos has a Dolby TrueHD 7.1 core, so that's presumably how the Cambridge interprets an Atmos source. In principle it's just bitstreaming that to the AVR, and the AVR handles the signal processing.

3. I’ve tried to turn off the speaker configuration in the Cambridge multiplayer, as I’ve already done the speaker configuration through the Yamaha (with the microphone it comes with) and I don't want two speaker configurations happening at once. That can't be a good thing. But there doesn’t seem to be any way to turn it off in the Cambridge. So I’ve at least set it to 7.1, the bigger of the two configuration options. I own the new DSOTM Blu-ray and when I run the little speaker check program that they so thoughtfully included, all the speakers are present and correct, so I'm heartened by that. So I'm hoping this is right?

4. I've set the Cambridge HDMI out to bitstream (not auto). Again, I hope this is right?

Any advice or reassurances that I’m doing the right things gratefully received. Thank you!

Hm. The first part of #3 is above my pay grade, but if, as you say, all speakers are firing, then that would seem to be a good sign. As for #4: "Auto" might or might not bitstream, depending, but "Bitstream" certainly will!

Hopefully I haven't steered you wrong with anything here; more tech-savvy members will correct me if I have. Good luck; keep us posted!

 

[Mistee]

It is peculiar that the front panel of your Yamaha doesn't display "Atmos" when you're playing Atmos. I've only glanced at the manual, but from p. 30, it seems that the panel should at least be displaying which speakers are active at any given moment? (See also p. 242.)

As for Surround AI and Surround Decoder: as I read it (pp. 132-136), both of those modes activate DSPs that generate immersive audio from stereo images--they're upmixers, in other words. "Surround AI" seems to be a proprietary Yahama thing, whereas "Surround Decode" (141) lets you choose between Dolby Surround, Neural:X, and Auro-3D. For Atmos playback, I'd be inclined to select "Straight Decode" (140) or "Pure Direct" (142) mode instead. (Perversely, the page of the manual devoted to Dolby Atmos [143] is singularly unhelpful.) And to test whether Atmos is playing back properly over your system, you could download the free channel test track from IAA.com--although I guess the track on the DSOTM Blu-Ray does more or less the same thing.

(Also: the Speaker section of the AVR's setup menu should, in principle, let you know which speakers you have connected and how they're named & configured. Judging by your Question #3, it seems you've done that.)



The Cambridge Audio is an older, pre-Atmos player, right? (Okay, so are most Oppos and other Blu-Ray players.) But Atmos has a Dolby TrueHD 7.1 core, so that's presumably how the Cambridge interprets an Atmos source. In principle it's just bitstreaming that to the AVR, and the AVR handles the signal processing.



Hm. The first part of #3 is above my pay grade, but if, as you say, all speakers are firing, then that would seem to be a good sign. As for #4: "Auto" might or might not bitstream, depending, but "Bitstream" certainly will!

Hopefully I haven't steered you wrong with anything here; more tech-savvy members will correct me if I have. Good luck; keep us posted!

Thank you for your very generous and extremely helpful suggestions and thoughts.

I don't want to be critical of the installers, as they did a great job of installing the speakers into the ceiling. I can only think that they're not that used to this model of Yamaha AVR, even though they convincingly recommended it. The AVR did not come with a physical manual and they steered me away from looking for the online one, saying 'it's 500 pages long ... just use Surround AI, which will work things out for you.' I get where they're coming from. It does seem super complex compared to my old Onkyo. (And yes, my Cambridge long predates Atmos.)

I have barely started following your advice, and already the AVR display now says 'Atmos/DTHD'. So it now clearly is getting the Atmos signal. Hooray! And how amazing it sounds. I'm playing Eno's Foreverandevernomore.

The manual you linked me to is for the RX A8A, whereas I have the A6A, though I imagine they would be pretty similar. However I'll go looking for the A6A manual, if there is one. Thank you again. Much appreciated.

 

[cbmmm3]

Planning my Atmos system and still on the fence whether to go 7.4.4 or 9.4.4 ( to have those left and right Wide speakers or not ). I prefer 7.4.4 for the sake of not having speakers everywhere in the room but willing to do 9.4.4. if its an essential improvement. Any advice or experience would be appreciated. Thank you

 

[HomerJAU]

but willing to do 9.4.4. if its an essential improvement.

I have a 7.2.4 system but others here on QQ with 9.x.x have said there are not many Atmos mixes utilising front wides. @AYanguas

 

[AYanguas]

Planning my Atmos system and still on the fence whether to go 7.4.4 or 9.4.4 ( to have those left and right Wide speakers or not ). I prefer 7.4.4 for the sake of not having speakers everywhere in the room but willing to do 9.4.4. if its an essential improvement. Any advice or experience would be appreciated. Thank you

In my case they have been worth it, since I could place the Wide speakers in the "canonically" recommended places.

As @HomerJAU says, not all Atmos mixes engage the Wides. Since Wides are not 'bed channels' (7.1.2) the mixer has to use Atmos Objects and locate them at the specific location (68º if I remember correctly).

There could be about 50% of the mixes that use Wides and 50% that don't use them, to say something. Of course, It is an Invented percentage, although I do find quite a few mixes that do use them.

For example, Steven Wilson uses them very little, and his mixes are basically concentrated in 7.1.4

On the other hand, Bruce Soord uses the Wides extensively to place that floating voice in front and a little above, which seems to be in front of your face.
'Machine Head' Do use the Wides, and there are some circle pannings around that seem quite smooth and progressive.

When I notice that the Wides are used (thanks to my VUmeters), I always think that it could be a "good mix" because the use of Objects and I usually find that correlation to work well.

If you are able to install Wides, have the AVR for that, and have all necessary "approvals", I would recommend to go for it, since the additional effort may be small compared to the overall effort.

Are the Wides "essential" for the mixes that use them? Perhaps not, as the Object imaging effect using other speakers will appear in some way. But that additional improvement could be worth when we use our systems not only "to listen to music" but as a global hobby.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

My processor won't do it, but i thought there were processors that can use the wide's during up mix.

 

[cbmmm3]

In my case they have been worth it, since I could place the Wide speakers in the "canonically" recommended places.

As @HomerJAU says, not all Atmos mixes engage the Wides. Since Wides are not 'bed channels' (7.1.2) the mixer has to use Atmos Objects and locate them at the specific location (68º if I remember correctly).

There could be about 50% of the mixes that use Wides and 50% that don't use them, to say something. Of course, It is an Invented percentage, although I do find quite a few mixes that do use them.

For example, Steven Wilson uses them very little, and his mixes are basically concentrated in 7.1.4

On the other hand, Bruce Soord uses the Wides extensively to place that floating voice in front and a little above, which seems to be in front of your face.
'Machine Head' Do use the Wides, and there are some circle pannings around that seem quite smooth and progressive.

When I notice that the Wides are used (thanks to my VUmeters), I always think that it could be a "good mix" because the use of Objects and I usually find that correlation to work well.

If you are able to install Wides, have the AVR for that, and have all necessary "approvals", I would recommend to go for it, since the additional effort may be small compared to the overall effort.

Are the Wides "essential" for the mixes that use them? Perhaps not, as the Object imaging effect using other speakers will appear in some way. But that additional improvement could be worth when we use our systems not only "to listen to music" but as a global hobby.

wow --thanks a ton for your input. I appreciate it

 

[AYanguas]

My processor won't do it, but i thought there were processors that can use the wide's during up mix.

My Denon 8500 (in addition to native Atmos) use the Wides when upmixing (non Atmos) with DSU. It was an upgrade of DSU firmware some few years ago, just when I decided to include the Wides in my room. So I assume all Denon/Marantz processors, at least, will do it. I think it also uses the Wides when upmixing with Neural:X, but I dont usually use that upmixer.

Of course, Auromatic does not use them, because Wides are not valid channel/speakers for Auro-3D

 

[stereoptic]

Does the AVR have a "Direct" mode or "Pure DIrect Mode"? If you select that does the display read "Atmos"?

 

[marpow]

Planning my Atmos system and still on the fence whether to go 7.4.4 or 9.4.4 ( to have those left and right Wide speakers or not ). I prefer 7.4.4 for the sake of not having speakers everywhere in the room but willing to do 9.4.4. if its an essential improvement. Any advice or experience would be appreciated. Thank you

Markie says:
Go to a big barn or go to home to a little sheep barn, you got the power.

 

[cbmmm3]

delete

 

[jimfisheye]

Planning my Atmos system and still on the fence whether to go 7.4.4 or 9.4.4 ( to have those left and right Wide speakers or not ). I prefer 7.4.4 for the sake of not having speakers everywhere in the room but willing to do 9.4.4. if its an essential improvement. Any advice or experience would be appreciated. Thank you

It was driven by the mix format many notable engineers were landing on for me and that was 7.1.4. The up/down mixing is the secondary and compromised case. The first priority was hearing these mixes in their fullest format 1:1 with how they were mixed and then joining in on the fun.

I don't mean to downplay the downmix abilities of Atmos. Someone's still going to lose their mind probably... It's great to see surround mixes at least going into more ears in stereo or lesser surround arrays vs just being unheard of and fully unheard. But this isn't some weird conceptual exercise into a new style of "object" mixing. We set up some speaker system and we mix until it sounds right! Same as before. But now with 4 more speakers on the ceiling!

So there were going to be some mixes made on (and therefor for) 7.1.4 arrays now and this is an official mix format now? Yeah? Alright, check! So I went for 7.1.4.

 

[MidiMagic]

Planning my Atmos system and still on the fence whether to go 7.4.4 or 9.4.4 ( to have those left and right Wide speakers or not ). I prefer 7.4.4 for the sake of not having speakers everywhere in the room but willing to do 9.4.4. if its an essential improvement. Any advice or experience would be appreciated. Thank you

If you have 9.4.4, where is there room for the door?

 

[Druid]

If you have 9.4.4, where is there room for the door?

Trapdoor in the floor ..........obviously!

 

[Mistee]

Since recently upgrading to Atmos (a simple 5.1.4, the .4 being in-ceiling speakers) I've been reading more widely about Atmos on QQ, and I'm getting the impression that posters typically say 'heights' for both actual heights (high on wall in corners, or on the ceiling) and in-ceiling speakers? Am I right?

Or is it, in fact, that most QQ Atmos listening posters tend to have heights? And so that's why heights tends to be more commonly referred to?

I'm interested to know, as sometimes I wonder how applicable some of the heights comments might be to me, someone with in-ceiling speakers?

Another way to put it, should I simply take all comments re heights as generally applicable to all of us, regardless of what speakers we have above our heads?

Maybe I'm overthinking all of it...

 

[jimfisheye]

The .4 in 5.1.4 are the height channels. There's a matter of fact spec for the speaker locations and they are in fact on the ceiling in a quad array. The spec is for in-ceiling down firing style to be wide dispersion and flat response out at 45 deg. Otherwise one is to use traditional speakers aimed at the sweet spot.

That's the brochure talking there. So, some of us cobble a little. Some a little more. You can have a calibrated system with DIY scavenging. And of course a few people have something kind of weird and I suppose they hear things skewed. The soundbars and top firing type speakers that ricochet off the ceiling and walls that can be slick for movies are pretty altering for music. 'Zings' and ambience bounced off the walls can work well. Full channels of music not so much. So anyone with that stuff will hear things differently. They won't be joining in on any discussion on phantom imaging of your speaker system between the floor and the heights at any rate.

 

[ted_b]

Since recently upgrading to Atmos (a simple 5.1.4, the .4 being in-ceiling speakers) I've been reading more widely about Atmos on QQ, and I'm getting the impression that posters typically say 'heights' for both actual heights (high on wall in corners, or on the ceiling) and in-ceiling speakers? Am I right?

Or is it, in fact, that most QQ Atmos listening posters tend to have heights? And so that's why heights tends to be more commonly referred to?

I'm interested to know, as sometimes I wonder how applicable some of the heights comments might be to me, someone with in-ceiling speakers?

Another way to put it, should I simply take all comments re heights as generally applicable to all of us, regardless of what speakers we have above our heads?

Maybe I'm overthinking all of it...

In Atmos (or any immersive format) there are three layers that are defined, bed layer, height layer, subwoofer "layer". The bed layer are the speakers in a 5.1 or 7.1 setup, meaning at ear height. The height layer consists of any and all speakers that are above you (by considerable measure over your bed speakers) and most processors call them tops and heights. These can be on wall, hanging from the ceiling, inceiling or even upfiring from sitting on top of the bed speakers. The differences between tops and heights is a whole 'nother discussion and has to do with how Atmos, Auro 3D and other immersive formats route their height info. Not that important in this discussion.

 

[Sal1950]

I so envy all you folks with rooms large enough to accommodate
all these extra speakers. I'm locked into 5.2.4 here but still quite happy
with my presentation. But, but, but.

 

[humprof]

Since recently upgrading to Atmos (a simple 5.1.4, the .4 being in-ceiling speakers) I've been reading more widely about Atmos on QQ, and I'm getting the impression that posters typically say 'heights' for both actual heights (high on wall in corners, or on the ceiling) and in-ceiling speakers? Am I right?

Or is it, in fact, that most QQ Atmos listening posters tend to have heights? And so that's why heights tends to be more commonly referred to?

I'm interested to know, as sometimes I wonder how applicable some of the heights comments might be to me, someone with in-ceiling speakers?

Another way to put it, should I simply take all comments re heights as generally applicable to all of us, regardless of what speakers we have above our heads?

Maybe I'm overthinking all of it...

Myself, I use "heights" and "overheads" interchangeably, to refer to my downfiring in-ceiling speakers.