ABC - The Lexicon Of Love (Steven Wilson 5.1 & Dolby Atmos remixes coming in August 2023; SDE Blu-Ray #12)

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mrcond said:
I gave this a listen last night and loved the Atmos mix and sound quality, and found the songs to be very good overall - catchy and melodic. Some great bass lines throughout, but I wished the bass dug deeper - it is seemed all the bass was kind of weak and was all in the mid-bass range with almost nothing in the low bass range, like they put a filter on it. My dual subs were hardly putting out anything at all (my bass management filters bass from all channels to the subs at 80 Hz). Did anyone else experience this? I haven't had a chance to compare to the original stereo mix but I am guessing that it was done this way on purpose for artistic reasons, perhaps to match the original mix aesthetic.
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Listening to the TIDAL Atmos version on my living room 5.1 system and the 7.1 FLACs ripped from the disc today on my 7.1, I also felt that the bass could be punchier.
 
Wouldn't 7.1 ripped (presumably from the Dolby TrueHD stream) to FLAC from the disc mean you're getting some of the Atmos mix but not all of the metadata, or at the very least not a correct downmixing of the metadata?

I thought that's why SW made dedicated 5.1 downmixes of his Atmos work, because it doesn't fold down properly on non-Atmos systems.
 
steelydave said:
Wouldn't 7.1 ripped (presumably from the Dolby TrueHD stream) to FLAC from the disc mean you're getting some of the Atmos mix but not all of the metadata, or at the very least not a correct downmixing of the metadata?
Click to expand...
My understanding is that if there's no Atmos decoder/renderer in the signal chain, the objects simply don't 'scale' upwards - this shouldn't result in any actual loss of information, rather these elements would stay at ground-level with the same relative position (top front left would go to front left, top middle left would go to side left, etc) and volume.

That said, I have come across these weird oddities every now and then when it comes to Atmos downmixes - for instance in "Detroit Rock City" from Kiss' Destroyer, the first guitar solo sounds quite buried in a 5.1/7.1 downmix but it comes blaring out of the left front height speaker in 5.1.4/7.1.4.

It is definitely curious that most of the elements people are saying sound buried on this album (sax, backing vocals, etc) are either in the rear surrounds or heights.
 
sjcorne said:
My understanding is that if there's no Atmos decoder/renderer in the signal chain, the objects simply don't 'scale' upwards - this shouldn't result in any actual loss of information, rather these elements would stay at ground-level with the same relative position (top front left would go to front left, top middle left would go to side left, etc) and volume.

That said, I have come across these weird oddities every now and then when it comes to Atmos downmixes - for instance in "Detroit Rock City" from Kiss' Destroyer, the first guitar solo sounds quite buried in a 5.1/7.1 downmix but it comes blaring out of the left front height speaker in 5.1.4/7.1.4.

It is definitely curious that most of the elements people are saying sound buried on this album (sax, backing vocals, etc) are either in the rear surrounds or heights.
Click to expand...
That sums up my knowledge and thoughts on this one.
 
Matt Wilson said:
Christ, how many Wilson surround discs have been released this year?
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Five so far (this, Suede, Ultravox’s Quartet, GG’s Interview, and TFF’s The Hurting), but we are due for several more in the coming weeks:
  • Jethro Tull - Broadsword (9/1)
  • The Who - Who’s Next (9/15)
  • XTC - The Big Express (9/22)
  • Rick Wright - Wet Dream (9/29)
  • SW - The Harmony Codex (9/29?)
 
https://avgadgets.com/downmixing-dolby-atmos-what-are-you-missing/^^^
The sound engineers have complete control over how these downmixes are done. There are presets, but they can adjust them as they see fit.


This may be old news, but it could help explain how the downmix can differ substantially from the undownmixed(?) Atmos.


(my ABC Blu-ray arrived a few hours ago, I'm listening to all 5 versions [on a 4.1 system w/DD&DTS core only decoding])


Kirk Bayne
 
kfbkfb said:
https://avgadgets.com/downmixing-dolby-atmos-what-are-you-missing/^^^
The sound engineers have complete control over how these downmixes are done. There are presets, but they can adjust them as they see fit.


This may be old news, but it could help explain how the downmix can differ substantially from the undownmixed(?) Atmos.


(my ABC Blu-ray arrived a few hours ago, I'm listening to all 5 versions [on a 4.1 system w/DD&DTS core only decoding])


Kirk Bayne
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Kirk I'm jealous. We both live in the same area but mine just left customs a couple of days ago & is taking up residency at the Chicago distribution center. Most interested in your opinion about the new Lexicon.
 
This 5.1 mix sounds stellar to me. The first song sounds a bit less stellar than the rest, but I just love it. The music is excellent as well pretty much start to finish on this album. My favorites are the two “Look of Love” tracks which I’ll probably make into a single track for my playlist. I’m so glad I took a chance on this album that I’d never heard before! (Although there’s not much risk with a Steven Wilson mix)
 
General queston (but it applies to my listening situation of this ABC album) - does the downmix of Dolby TrueHD to Dolby Digital (done as part of the Dolby TrueHD "encoding" process, a DD soundtrack is always present when Dolby TrueHD is) use a preset downmix procedure or does someone decide on a soundtrack by soundtrack basis how the TrueHD (up to 7.1) channels are mapped to DD 5.1?


Kirk Bayne
 
kfbkfb said:
...does the downmix of Dolby TrueHD to Dolby Digital (done as part of the Dolby TrueHD "encoding" process, a DD soundtrack is always present when Dolby TrueHD is) use a preset downmix procedure or does someone decide on a soundtrack by soundtrack basis how the TrueHD (up to 7.1) channels are mapped to DD 5.1?
Click to expand...
If you are referring to the 'lossy' Dolby Digital core (present within the Dolby TrueHD audio stream), it's always present as it's a mandatory requirement of the Blu-ray disc specification.

The amount of effort that's put into mixing the 'lossy' Dolby Digital core could be an interesting talking point, as some are not basic Dolby Digital 5.1 mixes, they are Dolby Digital EX mixes.
 
5.1 mix sounds stellar to me. This is a very busy album, with a lot of tracks doing a lot of things at the same time. Thus, it is not surprising that the surround field is very well filled out.

One little thing. In the second chorus of Poison Arrow, there's a different synth sound that I had never noticed before. It comes in the rear speakers and is a bit jarring and harsh to my ears. Because I had not noticed it before, I listened to the 1982 stereo mix, and then SW's stereo mix, and yep, it was there the entire time and the sound/EQ of it is probably consistent in the 5.1 mix. I just feel like some of the harshness could have been rolled off since the track is isolated in the surround setting and doesn't need to stand out amidst an avalanche of other tracks like it does in a stereo mix. This is a very minor quibble, however.

Some claps and accents are also pretty loud in the rears, particularly on the first two tracks, but again, I think this is consistent with the stereo mixes. They are a product of that 80s production.

SW's description of this album in the liner notes is pretty spot-on. He says it's part 50s crooning, part 60s pop, part 70s disco, and it could've only been made in the 80s.
 
SeeMoreDigital said:
If you are referring to the 'lossy' Dolby Digital core (present within the Dolby TrueHD audio stream), it's always present as it's a mandatory requirement of the Blu-ray disc specification.
Click to expand...

Yes, I researched this issue earlier today - the downmix/channel mapping process for creating (original) Dolby Surround from DD 5.1 is preset, I was wondering of the downmix/channel mapping (done during Blu-ray disc mastering) for Dolby TrueHD to Dolby Digital 5.1 is also preset?

My basement surround sound system is decoding only the DD 5.1 included in the Dolby TrueHD bitstream (in this case, this ABC album).


Kirk Bayne
 
albertop said:
I've prepared cue sheets for all mixes (2023 stereo mix, instrumental mixes, 1982 original mix, 5.1mix, and Atmos mix) in case someone is interested in splitting the tracks, or using the cue sheet with Foobar/Kodi. They are all slightly different, so you can't use a single cue sheet for all mixes. Also, the cue sheet for the Atmos mix doesn't use the CDDA frame per seconds, so that's also different.

Here's the 2023 Stereo mix.

Code: 
REM GENRE "Disco/Pop"
REM DATE 1982
PERFORMER "ABC"
TITLE "The Lexicon of Love (2023 Stereo Mix) [FLAC 24/96]"
FILE "FLAC 2023 Stereo Mix.flac" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    TITLE "Show Me"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    TITLE "Poison Arrow"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 04:05:18
  TRACK 03 AUDIO
    TITLE "Many Happy Returns"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 07:29:46
  TRACK 04 AUDIO
    TITLE "Tears Are Not Enough"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 11:27:66
  TRACK 05 AUDIO
    TITLE "Valentine's Day"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 14:58:15
  TRACK 06 AUDIO
    TITLE "The Look of Love (Part One)"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 18:39:10
  TRACK 07 AUDIO
    TITLE "Date Stamp"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 22:08:28
  TRACK 08 AUDIO
    TITLE "All of My Heart"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 25:59:43
  TRACK 09 AUDIO
    TITLE "4 Ever 2 Gether"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 31:17:00
  TRACK 10 AUDIO
    TITLE "The Look of Love (Part Four)"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 36:50:35

2023 Instrumental Mixes

Code: 
REM GENRE "Disco/Pop"
REM DATE 1982
REM COMMENT ""
PERFORMER "ABC"
TITLE "The Lexicon of Love (Instrumental Mixes) [FLAC 24/96]"
FILE "FLAC 2023 Instrumentals.flac" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    TITLE "Show Me"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    TITLE "Poison Arrow"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 04:05:60
  TRACK 03 AUDIO
    TITLE "Many Happy Returns"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 07:29:46
  TRACK 04 AUDIO
    TITLE "Tears Are Not Enough"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 11:27:65
  TRACK 05 AUDIO
    TITLE "Valentine's Day"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 14:58:30
  TRACK 06 AUDIO
    TITLE "The Look of Love (Part One)"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 18:39:20
  TRACK 07 AUDIO
    TITLE "Date Stamp"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 22:08:28
  TRACK 08 AUDIO
    TITLE "All of My Heart"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 25:59:43
  TRACK 09 AUDIO
    TITLE "4 Ever 2 Gether"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 31:17:18
  TRACK 10 AUDIO
    TITLE "The Look of Love (Part Four)"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 36:50:50

1982 Original Mix

Code: 
REM GENRE "Disco/Pop"
REM DATE 1982
REM COMMENT ""
PERFORMER "ABC"
TITLE "The Lexicon of Love (Original Mix) [FLAC 24/96]"
FILE "FLAC Original Mix.flac" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    TITLE "Show Me"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    TITLE "Poison Arrow"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 04:04:53
  TRACK 03 AUDIO
    TITLE "Many Happy Returns"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 07:29:00
  TRACK 04 AUDIO
    TITLE "Tears Are Not Enough"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 11:27:16
  TRACK 05 AUDIO
    TITLE "Valentine's Day"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 14:58:20
  TRACK 06 AUDIO
    TITLE "The Look of Love (Part One)"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 18:39:20
  TRACK 07 AUDIO
    TITLE "Date Stamp"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 22:08:28
  TRACK 08 AUDIO
    TITLE "All of My Heart"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 26:01:00
  TRACK 09 AUDIO
    TITLE "4 Ever 2 Gether"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 31:18:00
  TRACK 10 AUDIO
    TITLE "The Look of Love (Part Four)"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 36:53:00

2023 5.1 Mix

Code: 
REM GENRE "Disco/Pop"
REM DATE 1982
REM COMMENT ""
PERFORMER "ABC"
TITLE "The Lexicon of Love (5.1 Mix) [FLAC 24/96]"
FILE "FLAC 5.1 Mix.flac" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    TITLE "Show Me"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    TITLE "Poison Arrow"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 04:06:53
  TRACK 03 AUDIO
    TITLE "Many Happy Returns"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 07:30:30
  TRACK 04 AUDIO
    TITLE "Tears Are Not Enough"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 11:28:58
  TRACK 05 AUDIO
    TITLE "Valentine's Day"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 14:58:40
  TRACK 06 AUDIO
    TITLE "The Look of Love (Part One)"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 18:40:01
  TRACK 07 AUDIO
    TITLE "Date Stamp"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 22:09:00
  TRACK 08 AUDIO
    TITLE "All of My Heart"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 26:00:07
  TRACK 09 AUDIO
    TITLE "4 Ever 2 Gether"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 31:17:50
  TRACK 10 AUDIO
    TITLE "The Look of Love (Part Four)"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 36:51:37

Atmos Mix (for an Mka file, extracted from the Mkv rip in 24/48. This is important to match the FPS values)

Code: 
REM GENRE "Disco/Pop"
REM DATE 1982
REM COMMENT ""
PERFORMER "ABC"
TITLE "The Lexicon of Love (Atmos Mix) [MKA 24/48]"
FILE "ABC_LexiconOfLove_t00.mka" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    TITLE "Show Me"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    TITLE "Poison Arrow"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 04:06:00
  TRACK 03 AUDIO
    TITLE "Many Happy Returns"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 07:30:00
  TRACK 04 AUDIO
    TITLE "Tears Are Not Enough"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 11:29:10
  TRACK 05 AUDIO
    TITLE "Valentine’s Day"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 14:58:00
  TRACK 06 AUDIO
    TITLE "The Look of Love (Part One)"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 18:42:00
  TRACK 07 AUDIO
    TITLE "Date Stamp"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 22:13:00
  TRACK 08 AUDIO
    TITLE "All of My Heart"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 26:04:00
  TRACK 09 AUDIO
    TITLE "4 Ever 2 Gether"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 31:21:00
  TRACK 10 AUDIO
    TITLE "The Look of Love (Part Four)"
    PERFORMER "ABC"
    INDEX 01 36:53:00
Click to expand...
Love that I found someone that shares my hyperspecific capitalization conventions for track titles.
 
The DD 5.1 on this ABC album sounds pretty good to me, seems like Dolby Labs has gotten the lossy Dolby Digital 5.1 at low data rates to provide good fidelity.


Kirk Bayne
 
Just received my copy a few minutes ago. I will have to find some time to give it my full attention. I am tempted for a quick listen but I'd rather wait till I know I won't have any interruptions. It has certainly been fascinating reading everyone's comments about it.

What's the point of the little album cover flat folder? Just for display on my fireplace mantle?
 
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