Apple Joining the Atmos streaming game!

[pat bateman]

It’s true- Logitech EOL’d the Harmony remotes. However, they did say they would support the software while people have them in use. What does that mean? Who knows, but I’d assume a few more years of lackluster support and then that’s it (unless someone builds a replacement open-source backend).

seriously off topic, but…

It’s a shame because I have sworn by the Harmony remotes even before Logitech bought Intrigue Tech (the Canadian company that created them). Complicated to setup? A little, but once they are dialed in, they are magic. SW bugs? Logitech, oh Logitech…. All that said, nothing is cooler than having macros to dim all the lights and press play, or being able to bring the lights up when you are done watching something. That level of automation used to take a Crestron or Control4 setup, but Logitech allowed you to pull this off with a $99 remote / hub combo.

The biggest mistake Logitech made was not adapting the Harmony into a system for the future. CEC and voice commands sort of killed the universal remote concept. They could have adapted the idea of the hub/remote system into a whole home automation approach simply by linking the hubs and in the process unfiying home and media systems that don’t talk to each other. Also, it could have allowed for behaviors like starting a streaming movie in your Home theater and having the hubs communicate in a way to “transfer” viewing or listening to another room. Or lights, music, and systems turning on/off as you move through the house.

My favorite Harmony use is waking up every morning to automated lights, and music through an av system (weekends) or tv (weekdays). best alarm clock ever…. LOL

I will seriously miss this when Harmony stops working.

Sorry for continuing the off-topic, but hopefully Logitech will move the setup control back to being local instead cloud based like it is now. If they do that, the remotes will last until the hardware physically fails. I've been using Harmony remotes since you had to install software on a windows machine and plug the remote in to sync. Then after 7 years or so, I upgraded and figured out they went cloud based. I wasn't happy about that even though it did make setup easier - but who cares. You set it up once and maybe you add a few components over the years. I digress.

 

[Tornado Red]

Has anyone noticed a lack of 'hi res' for Dolby Atmos songs on Apple Music? Is this a limitation of bandwidth, or are there lots of Dolby Atmos songs in hi res and I'm just missing them?

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Has anyone noticed a lack of 'hi res' for Dolby Atmos songs on Apple Music? Is this a limitation of bandwidth, or are there lots of Dolby Atmos songs in hi res and I'm just missing them?

The "standard" is 24/48kHz I believe. I'm not sure if that is a limitation as well.

What are you seeing?

 

[marcb]

Sorry for continuing the off-topic, but hopefully Logitech will move the setup control back to being local instead cloud based like it is now. If they do that, the remotes will last until the hardware physically fails. I've been using Harmony remotes since you had to install software on a windows machine and plug the remote in to sync. Then after 7 years or so, I upgraded and figured out they went cloud based. I wasn't happy about that even though it did make setup easier - but who cares. You set it up once and maybe you add a few components over the years. I digress.

It’s still locally based for me with the Harmony One.

 

[marcb]

Has anyone noticed a lack of 'hi res' for Dolby Atmos songs on Apple Music? Is this a limitation of bandwidth, or are there lots of Dolby Atmos songs in hi res and I'm just missing them?

It depends upon what you call hi-rez. 24/48 PCM is the resolution all of the Atmos mixes are streamed - and 24/48 is generally considered hi-rez.

However as I understand it, that 24/48 PCM stream is actually upsampled from a lossy, lower rez source…

 

[harync]

It depends upon what you call hi-rez. 24/48 PCM is the resolution all of the Atmos mixes are streamed - and 24/48 is generally considered hi-rez.

However as I understand it, that 24/48 PCM stream is actually upsampled from a lossy, lower rez source…

I believe Tidal was using 768kbps DD+ for their Atmos. I would expect Apple to do the same. Max bit rate is 6.144 Mbps. Compare that to an uncompressed TrueHD Atmos bit rate of 18.0 Mbps.

 

[Tornado Red]

The "standard" is 24/48kHz I believe. I'm not sure if that is a limitation as well.

What are you seeing?

There seem to be lots of ‘hi res lossless’ stereo songs, but the Atmos songs I’ve seen are just ‘lossless’. According to my headphone DAC, I’m getting up to 96khz on hi res, and CD quality on the Atmos mixes.

 

[marcb]

I believe Tidal was using 768kbps DD+ for their Atmos. I would expect Apple to do the same. Max bit rate is 6.144 Mbps. Compare that to an uncompressed TrueHD Atmos bit rate of 18.0 Mbps.

Yes, 768kbps DD+.

 

[marcb]

There seem to be lots of ‘hi res lossless’ stereo songs, but the Atmos songs I’ve seen are just ‘lossless’. According to my headphone DAC, I’m getting up to 96khz on hi res, and CD quality on the Atmos mixes.

Again, the Atmos mixes are streamed at 24/48 PCM - which is lossless and hi-rez. But they are upsampled. So it’s ultimately a moot point.

As for stereo, while they may be streamed at a higher resolution, god only knows what the original source may be. Probably lossless of some sort generally, but I wouldn’t be shocked if some were from lossy sources as well.

 

[Toto4Ever]

I haven’t been playing Apple music much, but I noticed the other day & just now, that my speakers aren’t working correctly when playing Dolby Atmos. ( Definitely no centre speaker. )
Haven’t read through all recent posts, but is this the issue that some are posting about & if so how do I rectify it ??

 

[Tornado Red]

I haven’t been playing Apple music much, but I noticed the other day & just now, that my speakers aren’t working correctly when playing Dolby Atmos. ( Definitely no centre speaker. )
Haven’t read through all recent posts, but is this the issue that some are posting about & if so how do I rectify it ??

Are you using an Apple TV box?

 

[Tornado Red]

Again, the Atmos mixes are streamed at 24/48 PCM - which is lossless and hi-rez. But they are upsampled. So it’s ultimately a moot point.

As for stereo, while they may be streamed at a higher resolution, god only knows what the original source may be. Probably lossless of some sort generally, but I wouldn’t be shocked if some were from lossy sources as well.

I've never thought of 44.1- 48khz as hi res, just 88.2 - 96 - 192, but oh well. I see your point about not knowing the original source, but for me I would say the hi res stereo sound quality vs Spatial audio, on average, is better (though not, sniff, in surround).

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I haven’t been playing Apple music much, but I noticed the other day & just now, that my speakers aren’t working correctly when playing Dolby Atmos. ( Definitely no centre speaker. )
Haven’t read through all recent posts, but is this the issue that some are posting about & if so how do I rectify it ??

You might want to check various tunes out and make sure that there is actually Center channel information, I've found that many just have little or no center at all and some have quite a bit of Center, depending on how the mixer decided to go with it, it just depends.

 

[Toto4Ever]

Are you using an Apple TV box?

Yes. Had no problems, previously.

You might want to check various tunes out and make sure that there is actually Center channel information, I've found that many just have little or no center at all and some have quite a bit of Center, depending on how the mixer decided to go with it, it just depends.

I have & they all appear to be Dolby Atmos titles, which I’ve played many times before & had no problem with centre speaker. There is no sound at all from the centre speaker.

Just to add, it isn’t just the centre speaker with no sound. I appear to have the two fronts working & one other speaker, but as I said, no problems with non Dolby Atmos albums.

Obviously, I’ve got the bug, too.

 

[sjcorne]

You might want to check various tunes out and make sure that there is actually Center channel information, I've found that many just have little or no center at all and some have quite a bit of Center, depending on how the mixer decided to go with it, it just depends.

I have & they all appear to be Dolby Atmos titles, which I’ve played many times before & had no problem with centre speaker. There is no sound at all from the centre speaker.

Try the Atmos version of "Riders On The Storm" - the drums and lead vocal are completely isolated in the center speaker. The Lake Street Dive album also has the lead vocal and bass guitar completely confined to the center.

 

[SMS]

I've never thought of 44.1- 48khz as hi res, just 88.2 - 96 - 192, but oh well. I see your point about not knowing the original source, but for me I would say the hi res stereo sound quality vs Spatial audio, on average, is better (though not, sniff, in surround).

I also only consider sample rates of 88.2k and above to be hires. 24 bit makes no difference. 16 can adequately represent 96db of dynamic range and music has nowhere near that.

If Atmos doesn't sound as good as hires stereo, it is not the resolution that is the problem, it is the lossy compression. The Atmos stream is heavily compressed; 768kbps. That's less bandwidth than they use to stream lossless CD quality stereo, and about 1/4 of the bandwidth needed for lossless hires stereo... And Atmos has many more channels to transmit than just 2.

There have been many complaints about Dolby digital compression on these forums over the years, but that is basically what is being used to stream Atmos. It is disappointing because Apple and Tidal are already using far more bandwidth to stream stereo.

 

[marcb]

I haven’t been playing Apple music much, but I noticed the other day & just now, that my speakers aren’t working correctly when playing Dolby Atmos. ( Definitely no centre speaker. )
Haven’t read through all recent posts, but is this the issue that some are posting about & if so how do I rectify it ??

Almost certainly. Do you have auto-install upgrade on? Are you running version 15.0 or 15.1 on your Apple TV 4K?

 

[marcb]

I also only consider sample rates of 88.2k and above to be hires. 24 bit makes no difference. 16 can adequately represent 96db of dynamic range and music has nowhere near that.

If Atmos doesn't sound as good as hires stereo, it is not the resolution that is the problem, it is the lossy compression. The Atmos stream is heavily compressed; 768kbps. That's less bandwidth than they use to stream lossless CD quality stereo, and about 1/4 of the bandwidth needed for lossless hires stereo... And Atmos has many more channels to transmit than just 2.

There have been many complaints about Dolby digital compression on these forums over the years, but that is basically what is being used to stream Atmos. It is disappointing because Apple and Tidal are already using far more bandwidth to stream stereo.

FWIW, The Atmos stream to the Apple TV is lossy. But the stream to your AVR is upconverted lossless 24/48 PCM. That’s the confusion - or perhaps, the deception.

Bit depth is by FAR more important than sample rate. Calling only sample rates over 88.2k “hi-rez“ is mostly just chasing numbers. The difference between 16/44 and 24/44 or 24/48 is appreciable. The audible difference between, say, 24/44 and 24/88 or above is minimal.

 

[salsdali]

The audible difference between, say, 24/44 and 24/88 or above is minimal.

I disagree. 24/96 always sounds better to me than 24/44 no matter what the source is.

 

[salsdali]

I also only consider sample rates of 88.2k and above to be hires. 24 bit makes no difference. 16 can adequately represent 96db of dynamic range and music has nowhere near that.

If Atmos doesn't sound as good as hires stereo, it is not the resolution that is the problem, it is the lossy compression. The Atmos stream is heavily compressed; 768kbps. That's less bandwidth than they use to stream lossless CD quality stereo, and about 1/4 of the bandwidth needed for lossless hires stereo... And Atmos has many more channels to transmit than just 2.

There have been many complaints about Dolby digital compression on these forums over the years, but that is basically what is being used to stream Atmos. It is disappointing because Apple and Tidal are already using far more bandwidth to stream stereo.

so basically the atmos stream to the apple tv is equivalent to what an mp3 stream would be for stereo, correct?