Commercial Matrix Quadraphonic Cassettes?

QuadraphonicQuad

Help Support QuadraphonicQuad:

fizzywiggs41

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
5,807
Location
wpg, mb
Well maybe you could upload a picture of the Electrola cassette so I can see what to look for? I did find an Italian tape that ‘is’ marked SQ..........the I Nomadi one. I had seen it a few times before but just thought it was classical music or something. I tracked down the actual music on YouTube after much research, and the music is quite good. Kind of a light progressive rock sound and very agreeable. I ordered it from Discogs but shipping was more than the actual tape as it is coming from Italy.
 

Attachments

  • 20211126_105926.mp4
    2.8 MB
  • 20211126_110009.mp4
    8.5 MB

fizzywiggs41

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
5,807
Location
wpg, mb
You have this one Fizzy, and is it SQ encoded?



Yep.

I think that was one of the first ones I bought , (German, copy).
The first Popul Vuh I bought said stereo mono in the Cosmic Courier circle, but on the back they alluded to it being quad ,so being the curious collector of strange quads I took it home unwrapped the shrink-wrap and sure enough the vinyl stated it said it was a quad Cosmic Courier SQ (Einsjager & Seibenjager)(German edition).
Add to that the inside jacket stated it was a Cosmic Courier quad SQ creation .

Say pups,😀🤩....is that the reissued cd ? Or a cassette.

I think there were at least 6 (could be more) Popul Vuh SQ quads fwiw.
 

J. PUPSTER

💿🐕 Senior Disc Chaser 🎸
QQ Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
10,777
Location
CALIFORNIA (CENTRAL)
Yep.

I think that was one of the first ones I bought , (German, copy).
The first Popul Vuh I bought said stereo mono in the Cosmic Courier circle, but on the back they alluded to it being quad ,so being the curious collector of strange quads I took it home unwrapped the shrink-wrap and sure enough the vinyl stated it said it was a quad Cosmic Courier SQ (Einsjager & Seibenjager)(German edition).
Add to that the inside jacket stated it was a Cosmic Courier quad SQ creation .

Say pups,😀🤩....is that the reissued cd ? Or a cassette.

I think there were at least 6 (could be more) Popul Vuh SQ quads fwiw.
Well there was also a cassette, but not sure on that, but the CD, I’d run it through the SMv2 for a giggle.
 

fizzywiggs41

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
5,807
Location
wpg, mb
That's one thing I liked ....no loved , about the German audio recording industry.

Most of what I've seen is that they are all Single Inventory matrix quads . Be they Classical or Rock .
Metronome/OHR/COSMIC COURIER , Bellaphon Bacillus , BASF , Acanta , Eurodisc , Ariola , Horzu , Electrola, etc.

For some reason the German Record Companies just seemed to favour their Quad matrix recordings. (This may be true for Japan as well).
So why the f$k couldn't the North American Record Companies follow suit ? (with a small number of exceptions)
Like Creative World , CTI/KUDU , Golden Crest , Ovation, Black Jazz ,ABC/Impulse/Bluesway/Blue Thumb , Passport , and a few with 1 or2 quads .( and perhaps Project 3)


Capitol Records initially had SQ and Q8 ......and then went solo with a Q8 only policy ,but did the reverse with their Angel SQ Recordings ??? 🤯🤬 I think there were too many old farts in charge of that Company , stuck in the past, 1940's 50's and with no foresight !
 

par4ken

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
May 28, 2011
Messages
2,321
Location
NW Ontario
If you recorded and played back the tape on the same machine then there should be no phase difference. Trouble was it would seem is that no two decks were set up exactly the same. I remember adjusting and re-adjusting tape heads to get better sound from other peoples tapes. Most of those old cheaper decks only had one adjustment which you would tweak for the most best high frequency response. It's true that the setting producing the best highs might not produce the least phase error. I also remember using a test tape and adjusting so that both channels were in phase. That process was good for aligning multiple decks to all be the same.

It was rather cool that Sony recognised the problem and produced decks to minimise or eliminate it. I'm not sure what they actually did to accomplish that but it would of had the spin off effect of better (less phasey) stereo for everyone.
 

fredblue

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
26,704
Location
London, England
FWIW , 5 channel Quintaphonic, which is 4channel encoded matrix with a discrete MONO center,( the 5th channel)....... can not be included correctly on a 2 channel discrete encoded stereo tape , to be decoded back In to 5 channels.

How about some Ranch dressing with that hat ?🤠

the hat's intact - for now 😂

none of the commonly available versions of the OST album are QS-encoded anything, the album is Stereo.

idk who started the rumour back in the day but they were mistaken, the album has a Stereo mix with none of the effects or panning of the movie mix.

edit: unless you or someone has indefatigable proof of some other version of the OST album which does have the QS-encoded movie mix. if so i'll get the oven ready! 😂
 

par4ken

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
May 28, 2011
Messages
2,321
Location
NW Ontario
The Tommy soundtrack was long said to be QS encoded. I have a copy and it seemed to sound like a QS recording, but I used to run everything including QS through the S&IC so am in no position to say for sure, I haven't listened to it in a long awhile, and never via a Sansui decoder or Involve. It sounds to me like there might have been different mixes released on the same Polydor label? So it could be that one mix was encoded and another not. It's true that recordings that are not encoded at all can sound like they are, but that's more of a happy accident. I'll put Tommy on my list of albums to rip to the computer, and give it a listen. If there are any wide stereo effects in the recording then it can't be QS (I don't recall it having any).
 

fizzywiggs41

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
5,807
Location
wpg, mb
That's one thing I liked ....no loved , about the German audio recording industry.

Most of what I've seen is that they are all Single Inventory matrix quads . Be they Classical or Rock .
Metronome/OHR/COSMIC COURIER , Bellaphon Bacillus , BASF , Acanta , Eurodisc , Ariola , Horzu , Electrola, etc.

For some reason the German Record Companies just seemed to favour their Quad matrix recordings. (This may be true for Japan as well).
So why the f$k couldn't the North American Record Companies follow suit ? (with a small number of exceptions)
Like Creative World , CTI/KUDU , Golden Crest , Ovation, Black Jazz ,ABC/Impulse/Bluesway/Blue Thumb , Passport , and a few with 1 or2 quads .( and perhaps Project 3)
Capitol Records initially had SQ and Q8 ......and then went solo with a Q8 only policy ,but did the reverse with their Angel SQ Recordings ??? 🤯🤬 I think there were too many old farts in charge of that Company , stuck in the past, 1940's 50's and with no foresight !
i'm waiting for you to show me which version of the OST album's the Quintaphonic movie mixes in 2-channel QS-encoded form.

the OST album is something distinct from the movie's Quintaphonic soundtrack, different mixes, different content, not even remotely the same.


Simple my very good friend .
My vinyl album is The Polydor 1975 Movie Soundtrack . And yes it's different , it's much shorter ,by at least 10 minutes +.
It's always been an unmarked QS encoded album.....from day one. They couldn't and would not put the mono 5th channel (discrete center) on the album intact without affecting the 2ch QS encode.
But my edumacated guess is they did something to muck up the 2-channel QS encoded Discrete with some form of mixdown.
FWIW I have the U. S Copy on Polydor which is the one that The Quadrophonic Record Center in London shipped to me back in the 70's. Also I have the Canadian pressing on Polydor . As expected both copies are identical .
Played back via my Sansui QSD-2 it sounded pretty good. Especially the 2 Clapton tracks, Elton John , and Tina Turner.(Also some of Pete Townsend's solo tracks ,and Keith Moon's Wicked Uncle Ernie bit )

Audio engineers such as the famous A E S Member, John Eargle (quad engineer) picked this album as one of his favourite QS albums and wrote a short review of this very album he recommended for playback in QS.
Sources in both British Magazines and U.S. Magazines confirmed this album to be a "Quiet Quad" ,or "Closet Quad" or just an unmarked QS album as did also Sansui .

Polydor Japan also had the QS Quintaphonic emblem emblazoned on the O B I strip on the vinyl album they sold and promoted.

Although it was later made available on CD ,I never had it.....but should have. I blame my procrastination for that mis step.
In my opinion they should have made the entire soundtrack on vinyl LP available as it's one of the few Rock Movie's that starts off in the Who's music from start to finish.

Fizzy luvn' The Who's Music Epic.

Edit:
It's also worth noting Polydor never disputed this reported QS encoded album .......Nor did Sansui ?!!!
And they both had plenty of opportunities .
 
Last edited:

fizzywiggs41

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
5,807
Location
wpg, mb
If you recorded and played back the tape on the same machine then there should be no phase difference. Trouble was it would seem is that no two decks were set up exactly the same. I remember adjusting and re-adjusting tape heads to get better sound from other peoples tapes. Most of those old cheaper decks only had one adjustment which you would tweak for the most best high frequency response. It's true that the setting producing the best highs might not produce the least phase error. I also remember using a test tape and adjusting so that both channels were in phase. That process was good for aligning multiple decks to all be the same.

It was rather cool that Sony recognised the problem and produced decks to minimise or eliminate it. I'm not sure what they actually did to accomplish that but it would of had the spin off effect of better (less phasey) stereo for everyone.


Yes any Discrete (CD-4 , OR Q8) 4 Channel Source, I recorded through my SQ Encoder(or RM Encoder)... with my cassette player , sounded excellent in quad when played back on the same cassette deck via the appropriate Matrix Decoder.
CD-4 Records encoded to cassette....sounded somewhat better compared with tape to tape.

Anyone who has tried encoding , four in two out , knows how very easy it is to make a matrix recording.
I'm surprised that more unknown SQ/QS recordings haven't been revealed .
Any recording engineer with a Decoder in the Studio, .. at his or her disposal would be tempted when working with an artist's multichannel tapes.

🤫
 

fizzywiggs41

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
5,807
Location
wpg, mb
the hat's intact - for now 😂

none of the commonly available versions of the OST album are QS-encoded anything, the album is Stereo.

idk who started the rumour back in the day but they were mistaken, the album has a Stereo mix with none of the effects or panning of the movie mix.

edit: unless you or someone has indefatigable proof of some other version of the OST album which does have the QS-encoded movie mix. if so i'll get the oven ready! 😂

It was no rumour, Freddie.
Far too many in the know , the who's who from the audiophile world. reported this QS encode was available on Polydor .
I agree the blu-ray does not sound as good as the album soundtrack.
But your forgetting that the New Blu-ray mix in Quintaphonic doesn't have the original quad discrete mix by The Who''s Engineer from 75 , "Ron Nevison".
Yes John Mosely is mentioned but that's because the Quintaphonic System is his answer to surround on film ,
2ch matrix QS encode with a third channel (mono) center front. And it was the first to be played in full surround provided the Theatre was equipped with the Decoder for playback. And also the 3 front and 2 rear speakers
 

fizzywiggs41

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
5,807
Location
wpg, mb
Oh and I got the wrong engineer ,for the album's QS review.
It should be John Woram . If that name rings a bell ,that's because he was in charge of Vanguard 's recordings in the very early 70's and late 60's. He was the head engineer for Vanguard. Previously he worked for RCA Victor in the early 60's.
He also wrote 3 editions of a book on studio recording , "THE RECORDING STUDIO HANDBOOK"

Here is his review on the Quad winners from all 3 formats ;
20211126_184501.jpg




From Stereo Review , April 1976 . "QUADISC WINNERS"


🤗
 

tryphon

Member
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
40
Location
South Florida
Yes I used to have that "I Nomadi" PDU/EMI SQ Cosmic Courier(Italian) on LP . And a few other PDU SQ albums on vinyl. Such as a couple of Ash Ra Tempel , Cosmic Courier vinyl albums.
Being as it and most of those Cosmic Courier were single inventory SQ quads , I think you ordered the real deal.
BTW : Was it also available on C D* ?

Also you mentioned you had suspected Quad cassettes . Can you let me know which ones ?






*compared to cassettes in matrix quad , CD' s are most desirable for matrix quad.

😉
Yes, the Quad recording of the Nomadi was also available on CD. I have it and it sounds great.
 

MidiMagic

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Joined
Jul 5, 2010
Messages
1,462
The Tommy soundtrack was long said to be QS encoded. I have a copy and it seemed to sound like a QS recording, but I used to run everything including QS through the S&IC so am in no position to say for sure, I haven't listened to it in a long awhile, and never via a Sansui decoder or Involve. It sounds to me like there might have been different mixes released on the same Polydor label? So it could be that one mix was encoded and another not. It's true that recordings that are not encoded at all can sound like they are, but that's more of a happy accident. I'll put Tommy on my list of albums to rip to the computer, and give it a listen. If there are any wide stereo effects in the recording then it can't be QS (I don't recall it having any).

What about QS precludes wide stereo effects?

If the 4-corners encoder is used, a full stereo width is missing because of how it encodes LS and RS positions.

But a fully panable encoder like the one I use allows a full stereo mix using the front half of the encoder. So a QS record can have wide stereo.

That's one thing I liked ....no loved , about the German audio recording industry.

Most of what I've seen is that they are all Single Inventory matrix quads . Be they Classical or Rock .
Metronome/OHR/COSMIC COURIER , Bellaphon Bacillus , BASF , Acanta , Eurodisc , Ariola , Horzu , Electrola, etc.

For some reason the German Record Companies just seemed to favour their Quad matrix recordings. (This may be true for Japan as well).
So why the f$k couldn't the North American Record Companies follow suit ? (with a small number of exceptions)
Like Creative World , CTI/KUDU , Golden Crest , Ovation, Black Jazz ,ABC/Impulse/Bluesway/Blue Thumb , Passport , and a few with 1 or2 quads .( and perhaps Project 3)
Capitol Records initially had SQ and Q8 ......and then went solo with a Q8 only policy ,but did the reverse with their Angel SQ Recordings ??? 🤯🤬 I think there were too many old farts in charge of that Company , stuck in the past, 1940's 50's and with no foresight !

There are a few wrinkles here.

1. Capitol originally chose QS, but then became part of the Columbia group.

2. The US record companies had decided to use quadraphonics based on the high sales of the Q4 machines.

- Only after the other quadraphonic equipment and recordings had low sales did they discover that most of those Q4 machines went into home studios, not quadraphonic systems.

- I repaired several Q4 machines. All of them were in home studios. Only one was being used for both Q4 tapes and studio multitracking.

3. Record sales were low because quadraphonic records were placed in a QUADRAPHONIC bin in record stores instead of with the other records of the artist, Only the stereo version was placed in the artist bin.

Simple my very good friend .
My vinyl album is The Polydor 1975 Movie Soundtrack . And yes it's different , it's much shorter ,by at least 10 minutes +.
It's always been an unmarked QS encoded album.....from day one. They couldn't and would not put the mono 5th channel (discrete center) on the album intact without affecting the 2ch QS encode.

They would have to add the center channel to the QS encoded mix in the record or the center channel material would be absent from the record,

That is easy enough to do. I could do it with my encoding mixer or with any stereo mixer.

But my edumacated guess is they did something to muck up the 2-channel QS encoded Discrete with some form of mixdown.
FWIW I have the U. S Copy on Polydor which is the one that The Quadrophonic Record Center in London shipped to me back in the 70's. Also I have the Canadian pressing on Polydor . As expected both copies are identical .
Played back via my Sansui QSD-2 it sounded pretty good. Especially the 2 Clapton tracks, Elton John , and Tina Turner.(Also some of Pete Townsend's solo tracks ,and Keith Moon's Wicked Uncle Ernie bit )

Audio engineers such as the famous A E S Member, John Eargle (quad engineer) picked this album as one of his favourite QS albums and wrote a short review of this very album he recommended for playback in QS.
Sources in both British Magazines and U.S. Magazines confirmed this album to be a "Quiet Quad" ,or "Closet Quad" or just an unmarked QS album as did also Sansui .

Polydor Japan also had the QS Quintaphonic emblem emblazoned on the O B I strip on the vinyl album they sold and promoted.

Although it was later made available on CD ,I never had it.....but should have. I blame my procrastination for that mis step.
In my opinion they should have made the entire soundtrack on vinyl LP available as it's one of the few Rock Movie's that starts off in the Who's music from start to finish.

Fizzy luvn' The Who's Music Epic.

Edit:
It's also worth noting Polydor never disputed this reported QS encoded album .......Nor did Sansui ?!!!
And they both had plenty of opportunities .

I KNOW there were two versions of that record, I borrowed the early copy and played it through my QS decoder and there was good quad.

Later I borrowed another copy of the album and there was almost no encoded material.

In between, Polydor signed to make CD-4 recordings. I think they remixed the album without QS encoding for JVC.
 

doity

400 Club - QQ All-Star
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
422
If you recorded and played back the tape on the same machine then there should be no phase difference. Trouble was it would seem is that no two decks were set up exactly the same. I remember adjusting and re-adjusting tape heads to get better sound from other peoples tapes. Most of those old cheaper decks only had one adjustment which you would tweak for the most best high frequency response. It's true that the setting producing the best highs might not produce the least phase error. I also remember using a test tape and adjusting so that both channels were in phase. That process was good for aligning multiple decks to all be the same.

It was rather cool that Sony recognised the problem and produced decks to minimise or eliminate it. I'm not sure what they actually did to accomplish that but it would of had the spin off effect of better (less phasey) stereo for everyone.

I only notice this phenomenon when playing back tapes made on commercially available decks. I am sure that tape duplicating machines back in the day were kept to some kind of industry standard and were constantly monitored and adjusted as needed. At least for the large duplication houses, probably not for churches and such that were cranking out their sermons or whatever.

Speaking of that.......a few nights ago I was watching late night TV and there was a religious infomercial on and they were trying to get donations. Big Surprise right? Anyway, they said if you donated some dollar amount you would get this and that. One of the things was 5 audio tapes. I said to my wife “Who still listens to audio tapes.” She then pointed out to me my large tape collection strewn all over the house 🙂.
 

doity

400 Club - QQ All-Star
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
422
Well I received my Angel cassette of Vivaldi’s Four Seasons. It is a “double circle” title and is listed as being in SQ quad on the surround discography site. Never experiencing SQ before, I had no idea of what to expect. I got everything set up and got the Tate dialed in and gave it a whirl. I was blown away by the surround effect and it was virtually indistinguishable from a discrete recording. Actually I was just expecting ambience in the rears as most classical in quad seems to be, but stuff was coming at me from all directions.

I plan to try just a regular, non-encoded classical music cassette and see if there is any difference. What I mean by that is maybe the Tate is just putting stuff in the back channels just because SQ was engaged? Could be. But the output sounds very deliberate and the instruments were generally not bleeding over to every channel.
 

par4ken

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
May 28, 2011
Messages
2,321
Location
NW Ontario
What about QS precludes wide stereo effects?
The QS mix when played in stereo! With less than 8dB separation QS does not sound nearly as wide as a stereo record. The out of phase encoding of the back channels can widen the image a bit but that pseudo stereo is not the same thing. In short QS encoded material has its own characteristic sound (as does SQ). In many cases it can sound quite good, Carole King "Music" for one. In other cases Joe Walsh "The Smoker You Drink, The Player You Get", the QS version is narrowed significantly. Because of that I had to search out a stereo copy for my collection as well, I was just not satisfied with the QS version.
 

fizzywiggs41

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
5,807
Location
wpg, mb
What about QS precludes wide stereo effects?

If the 4-corners encoder is used, a full stereo width is missing because of how it encodes LS and RS positions.

But a fully panable encoder like the one I use allows a full stereo mix using the front half of the encoder. So a QS record can have wide stereo.



There are a few wrinkles here.

1. Capitol originally chose QS, but then became part of the Columbia group.


Oh really ?? That's news to me.
When did Capitol use QS on any of their quadraphonic recordings ??
And what release or releases ??

-fizzy

2. The US record companies had decided to use quadraphonics based on the high sales of the Q4 machines.

- Only after the other quadraphonic equipment and recordings had low sales did they discover that most of those Q4 machines went into home studios, not quadraphonic systems.

- I repaired several Q4 machines. All of them were in home studios. Only one was being used for both Q4 tapes and studio multitracking.

3. Record sales were low because quadraphonic records were placed in a QUADRAPHONIC bin in record stores instead of with the other records of the artist, Only the stereo version was placed in the artist



I KNOW there were two versions of that record, I borrowed the early copy and played it through my QS decoder and there was good quad.

Later I borrowed another copy of the album and there was almost no encoded material.

In between, Polydor signed to make CD-4 recordings. I think they remixed the album without QS encoding for JVC.

In Japan only IIRC . And approximately only 6 ,in RM , or it's equivalent.


JAPANESE QS LISTING FROM 1975 (accumulative)

16381319309311088018986430857664.jpg



Japanese CD-4 listing from 1976 (accumulative)


I think it should be noted that none of those RM and CD-4 releases would appeal to the European or North Amercan markets . Including Australia/New Zealand ,and South Africa.
 

Attachments

  • 16381321054428478944870245297462.jpg
    16381321054428478944870245297462.jpg
    195.2 KB · Views: 63

par4ken

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
May 28, 2011
Messages
2,321
Location
NW Ontario
[
But a fully panable encoder like the one I use allows a full stereo mix using the front half of the encoder. So a QS record can have wide stereo.
Yes but that totally misses my point. Simple stereo played through a QS decoder will produce side images. You could encode QS (RM actually) that could have wide stereo parts if side images are encoded but that would seldom if ever be the case with real world releases. QS generally has a limited (narrow) sound stage. I'm unaware of any QS releases that sound nearly as wide as stereo, with stereo playback. Playback via vario-matrix or Involve will (obviously) open them back up.
 

MidiMagic

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Joined
Jul 5, 2010
Messages
1,462
Last edited:
Top