Death of Blu-Ray?

[dobyblue]

Sucks for Europeans - I've been getting amazing prices on Amazon US for years...bought my first Blu-ray in November 2006 (Into The Blue - yes, for the boobies) and haven't looked back. Have over 400 titles now.
My collection - http://www.blu-ray.com/community/collection.php?u=1916

I have an all region player so I can order PAL DVDs and 1080i50 Blu-ray discs even if they're REGION B from the UK, had to figure that one out when North America got shafted last year on the 2011 Formula One review disc, we got crappy DVD only here, the UK/EU got a gorgeous Blu-ray and then same thing happened again this year.

I usually only upgrade titles I absolutely love or ones where the DVD had a really poor transfer and the reviews of the remaster are excellent, like The Godfather Trilogy, Band of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan, etc. It was the lossless audio aspect that first drew me to Blu-ray, I couldn't wait to hear "The Fifth Element" with a PCM track instead of 1/2 bit-rate dts.

 

[atrocity]

the upscaling of the DVDs is quite spectacular!

I think that was the biggest surprise to me. I don't have an enormous TV, so the quality upgrade Blu-ray offers over DVD is subtle. But the quality the player offers when upscaling standard DVD compared to what was once a good DVD player is shocking! Black magic, I think.

 

[dobyblue]

I found my progressive scan DVD player being upscaled to the TVs native resolution by my $2,000 plasma does a better job than any $100 Blu-ray player does at upscaling, YMMV.

A $500 Oppo using the latest and greatest video chip = different story.

While I enjoy the increase in resolution, for the first two years of owning and watching Blu-ray discs I was using a 32" 480i CRT so I never gained the resolution increase at first, however I found just the sheer upgrade in colour accuracy, lack of artifacting inherent in low bitrate MPEG-2 encodings, lack of pixelation and shimmering blacks were all immediately noticeable improvements over my DVD collection, and the sound...the sound...ahh!

 

[kap'n krunch]

Sucks for Europeans - I've been getting amazing prices on Amazon US for years...bought my first Blu-ray in November 2006 (Into The Blue - yes, for the boobies) and haven't looked back. Have over 400 titles now.
My collection - http://www.blu-ray.com/community/collection.php?u=1916

I have an all region player so I can order PAL DVDs and 1080i50 Blu-ray discs even if they're REGION B from the UK, had to figure that one out when North America got shafted last year on the 2011 Formula One review disc, we got crappy DVD only here, the UK/EU got a gorgeous Blu-ray and then same thing happened again this year.

I usually only upgrade titles I absolutely love or ones where the DVD had a really poor transfer and the reviews of the remaster are excellent, like The Godfather Trilogy, Band of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan, etc. It was the lossless audio aspect that first drew me to Blu-ray, I couldn't wait to hear "The Fifth Element" with a PCM track instead of 1/2 bit-rate dts.

Well, for me, coming from the US, when I arrived in Spain in 91, I was FLABBERGASTED by how beautiful PAL was compared to Never The Same Color/Contrast!!! And that was only analog TV back then...
Especially since I used to play on a TV program and the set was extremely psychedelic color wise...what I saw the monitors was what it was REALLY like in real life, as opposed to the US...

The weirdest part for me is when I get series on NTSC DVDs(24 fps) and listen to the voices that I was used to hear in PAL(25 fps)...we always get a kick from it...some voices are REALLY different!

Since I am not really VERY well informed about BD's specs, I will not open my mouth, but, I must say that the "drop frame" issue was a deal breaker a few years ago...("Hi Def video with DROP FRAME??? REALLY??? You MUST be Joking!!!")
Don't know how they sorted it out but yes, now it flows the way it should...and the color..man, PAL is outta this world!! Sorry for you guys...

And yes, "The Fifth Element" a VERY special movie for me, is a stunner in PAL (and besides , it's a European film, so it was shot in 25 fps)...I NEVER get tired of watching it ..and I have it on Laserdisc (sooo sloooow in 24!), the first DVD transfer to PAL, the Remastered DVD, and now the RE-REMASTER on BD (I read that it was one of the first ones that got a BD release but it was butchered somehow)..

Now, if only I could watch baseball in PAL!!! (I still miss it!!! Can't wait to move to a place with a DSL connection! I used to have MLB.com a few years back!)

 

[Quad Linda]

DVD's look good on my 60" plasma, especially with line doubling. Blu-Ray still looks better. Sure, the difference may look subtle on a small screen. The anomalies and/or lack of resolution look more pronounced the larger the screen.

My Yamaha DVD plays ALL regions and formats, except Blu-Ray. DVD-A, SACD, Divx, etc, etc.

Kap'n, being a huge baseball fan, it still looks phenomenal in 1080i NTSC. Computer animation is the only thing that looks better. Having been in Milwaukee all day yesterday, I'm watching last night's AL wild card game on my DVR as I type this.

When CD's were new, I attended a seminar with Len Feldman, the hifi writer. When he asked, "what does NTSC stand for?" I replied, "never the same color." The attendees broke into laughter.

 

[dobyblue]

I'm pretty sure that despite being a 100% French production The Fifth Element was shot at 24fps, most movies that are shot on film are. The official running time listed for The Fifth Element is 126 minutes, which matches the NTSC DVD running time, the PAL running time is 121 minutes which is a 4% speed up.

There are a few movies authored on Blu-ray Disc in 1080i50 and they are noted here including those that were originally shot @ 25fps, the list is quite small - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1117941/list-of-blu-ray-movies-authored-in-1080i50

I agree that PAL is much better, not just for colours but also for the additional 20% resolution. I have the PAL season reviews of the F1 seasons that were only released on DVD whenever possible so I can have the best quality available.

Watching baseball here now you're usually watching ATSC, not NTSC. With Fox you're watching it shot natively at 720p60. When you watch NFL it's going to vary between 720p60 (Fox/ESPN) and 1080i60 (NBC/CBS).

 

[proufo]

I agree that PAL is much better, not just for colours but also for the additional 20% resolution. I have the PAL season reviews of the F1 seasons that were only released on DVD whenever possible so I can have the best quality available.

PAL colors are the same as NTSC, if the set is properly set up (non-broadcast). The technology is almost identical.

PAL goes together almost always with 50Hz, i.e., slight flickering. It's a tradeoff.

I recently got a bottom of the line, inexpensive BD player for the bedroom, and I'm very happy with it. Plays Zone 1 and Zone 4 DVDs (even though it's labeled as just Zone 4) and has Netflix and youtube capabilities (cabled network connection, for better or for worse) plus files playback from discs and USB sticks. DVD playback is similar to my old non-BD player via component video. A real up-converting player, such as the Samsung 1200 with HQV I have in the main system does a way better job.

I hope Blu-ray lasts for a long time.

 

[dobyblue]

When you consider that less than 10% of sets in 2006 were deinterlacing properly you need to put a big asterisk beside "set is properly set-up" because for lots of TVs there's nothing the user can adjust.

http://www.diffen.com/difference/NTSC_vs_PAL#Differences_in_Color_encoding_in_PAL_and_NTSC

Differences in Color encoding in PAL and NTSC

NTSC receivers have a tint control to perform color correction manually. If this is not adjusted correctly, the colors may be faulty. The PAL standard automatically removes hue errors by utilizing phase alternation of the color signal (see technical details), so a tint control is unnecessary. Chrominance phase errors in the PAL system are canceled out using a 1H delay line resulting in lower saturation, which is much less noticeable to the eye than NTSC hue errors.

However, the alternation of color information — Hanover bars — can lead to picture grain on pictures with extreme phase errors even in PAL systems, if decoder circuits are misaligned or use the simplified decoders of early designs (to overcome royalty restrictions). Usually such extreme phase shifts do not occur; this effect will usually be observed when the transmission path is poor, typically in built up areas or where the terrain is unfavorable. The effect is more noticeable on UHF signals than VHF as VHF signals tend to be more robust.

A PAL decoder can be seen as a pair of NTSC decoders:

PAL can be decoded with two NTSC decoders.
By switching between the two NTSC decoders every other line it is possible to decode PAL without a phase delay line or two phase-locked loop (PLL) circuits.
This works because one decoder receives a color sub carrier with negated phase in relation to the other decoder. It then negates the phase of that sub carrier when decoding. This leads to smaller phase errors being cancelled out. However a delay line PAL decoder gives superior performance. Some Japanese TVs originally used the dual NTSC method to avoid paying royalty to Telefunken.
PAL and NTSC have slightly divergent colour spaces, but the color decoder differences here are ignored.
PAL supports SMPTE 498.3 while NTSC is compliant with EBU Recommendation 14.
The issue of frame rates and color sub carriers is ignored in this technical explanation. These technical details play no direct role (except as subsystems and physical parameters) to the decoding of the signal.

It's why some industry folk refer to NTSC as "NEVER THE SAME COLOUR (TWICE)"

 

[Disclord]

When you consider that less than 10% of sets in 2006 were deinterlacing properly you need to put a big asterisk beside "set is properly set-up" because for lots of TVs there's nothing the user can adjust.

http://www.diffen.com/difference/NTSC_vs_PAL#Differences_in_Color_encoding_in_PAL_and_NTSC



It's why some industry folk refer to NTSC as "NEVER THE SAME COLOUR (TWICE)"

Actually, its "Never Twice the Same Color" and PAL is referred to as "Peace At Last" since the BBC was testing field and line sequential color, NTSC color encoding applied to the 405 line system, CPA = Color Phase Alternation By field, etc... Until they settled on Phase Alternation By Line, which the original NTSC tested as well as field alternation, but since delay lines were expensive in the early 50’s, integration was done by eye, which didn't work with high brightness, highly saturated colors, so the NTSC adjusted the system to use the ingenious I/Q color system to give the appearance of much higher color resolution.

And then SECAM which people joked stood for "Something Essentially Contrary to the American Method" unfortunately, the French gave up their high definition 718 line B/W system and dropped to 625 with FM encoding of the color which means all program production has to be done in component form with encoding to SECAM at the last minute - you can even fade a SECAM signal to black since the FM color won't allow it. That's why all VCR's and disc players meant for SECAM use stored the signal as PAL and converted to SECAM at the last minute.

with all the problems NTSC had, they were largely fixed and none of the color systems stored a color signal with as full bandwidth utilization as NTSC and NTSC can be basically decoded perfectly, which neither PAL or SECAM can do since NTSC doesn't have line alternations or FM color that make perfect decoding impossible. Plus, NTSC has MUCH better temporal/motion resolution due to its 60 Hz field rate.

And sadly, DVD's are still marked as NTSC or PAL when neither term refers to anything in the DVD standard because DVD uses true wide band component color/luma encoding, not a composite color encoding that causes dot crawl and cross luminance, and in most TV's, NTSC isn't even decoded correctly - the discs should say 50Hz or 60 Hz and not refer to a color encoding system the format doesn't use.

 

[dobyblue]

Due to the terms being synonymous with refresh rates and resolution for DVD, they're still used primarily to let you know whether they're going to work on your player or not, moreso for North Americans.

Plus, NTSC has MUCH better temporal/motion resolution due to its 60 Hz field rate.

Outside of sporting events though, that's pretty irrelevant. Most people's DVD collections are movies. Perhaps the odd concert or so, but concerts suck on DVD!

One of my favourite sports is F1, I hope the next physical format that supports 4K will also support 1080p120 and we'll start seeing sports like auto racing, ice hockey, etc., being broadcast at higher frame rates. I don't think the temporal resolution difference between 1080i50 and 1080i60 would be "much better" for most people, just as most people don't notice audio differences and most people had no idea they were watching 3:2 judder on their TVs for several years before Blu-ray, but bumping up to 100Hz and 120Hz sure would be.

I'm okay with relevant equipment upgrades associated with making this change.

 

[proufo]

And sadly, DVD's are still marked as NTSC or PAL when neither term refers to anything in the DVD standard because DVD uses true wide band component color/luma encoding, not a composite color encoding that causes dot crawl and cross luminance, and in most TV's, NTSC isn't even decoded correctly - the discs should say 50Hz or 60 Hz and not refer to a color encoding system the format doesn't use.

That would be fun

I'd guess no one these days uses Ch 3 or 4 to play DVDs.

Thanks, Disclord for the great information, as usual.

 

[proufo]

And then SECAM which people joked stood for "Something Essentially Contrary to the American Method" unfortunately, the French gave up their high definition 718 line B/W system and dropped to 625 with FM encoding of the color which means all program production has to be done in component form with encoding to SECAM at the last minute - you can even fade a SECAM signal to black since the FM color won't allow it. That's why all VCR's and disc players meant for SECAM use stored the signal as PAL and converted to SECAM at the last minute.

I understand that before digital, conversion of frame rates was very expensive and complicate. I believe I read somewhere that converting Monty Python to NTSC for PBS was a huge effort by the BBC.

And of course, the French wanted to sell their TV shows in the rest of Europe, and probably were not able to develop reasonable production equipment.

 

[TVB]

I'm not trying to trash laserdisc, just reinforcing that to my eyes, DVD was a *major* improvement right out of the gate and only continued to get better and better...much like laserdisc, come to think of it.

I dont like laserdisc on my large plasma, but on the last and greatest Sony XBR CRT they are incredible. I wish I would have had one of these XBRs before investing in DVD's. Anyway, these Sonys have a couple of circuits in them (Reality and Clarity) that makes Laserdiscs look as good to me as DVD's. I have a large collection of lasediscs and players (including an Elite Pioneer CLD 99 from a pawn shop for $50.00 when DVDS were the rage) and really enjoy my laserdisc collection with these TVs. Incidentally, they are great for 90's videogame systems too. If my memory serves me right, the XBR CRT's were $2000 to $2500 each in 2004 and 2005, but now people are giving them away to thrift stores!!. Ive got the 30 inch ($40) and 34 inch.
Blurays are my choice for new movie purchases (that I dont have on Laserdisc) or to get my favorite movies in HD. They sell these things in Colo at pawn shops for $5 each and yesterday I just bought 3 for $10!!

 

[kap'n krunch]

The PAL @ 50Hz (because of the 220V/50 Hz EU current as opposed to the 110v/60Hz USA/Japan etc. current) was solved more than 10 years ago when almost ALL TVs were 100Hz , so no flickering was shown at all.

Well, NTSC may have its advantages (and the fact that most PAL DVD players also play it), but I wouldn't trade it for anything else in the world....I can attest because of all of the NTSC DVDs I have do not hold a candle to their PAL counterpart...

 

[neil wilkes]

Did anybody notice who is being quoted here - the head (CEO) of, er, Netflix.......so no conflict of interest there then.

 

[leevitalone1]

I dont like laserdisc on my large plasma, but on the last and greatest Sony XBR CRT they are incredible. I wish I would have had one of these XBRs before investing in DVD's. Anyway, these Sonys have a couple of circuits in them (Reality and Clarity) that makes Laserdiscs look as good to me as DVD's. I have a large collection of lasediscs and players (including an Elite Pioneer CLD 99 from a pawn shop for $50.00 when DVDS were the rage) and really enjoy my laserdisc collection with these TVs. Incidentally, they are great for 90's videogame systems too. If my memory serves me right, the XBR CRT's were $2000 to $2500 each in 2004 and 2005, but now people are giving them away to thrift stores!!. Ive got the 30 inch ($40) and 34 inch.
Blurays are my choice for new movie purchases (that I dont have on Laserdisc) or to get my favorite movies in HD. They sell these things in Colo at pawn shops for $5 each and yesterday I just bought 3 for $10!!

I am with you! I bought the last XBR CRT model, made- $600.00 in the box. a 34" HD, WS, and love it! I continue to use it. Although I am seeking a bigger screen, I have reservations on PQ compared to my XBR. I did have the model under and after posting it on CL I ended up just giving it to a tv shop. Big-heavy and takes up space and power,but who cares?

 

[fredblue]

Did anybody notice who is being quoted here - the head (CEO) of, er, Netflix.......so no conflict of interest there then.

I don't know what Netflix is like in the States but here it is absolutely pathetic unless you're into Breaking Bad there's precious little new on it movie-wise its abysmal.

 

[proufo]

I am with you! I bought the last XBR CRT model, made- $600.00 in the box. a 34" HD, WS, and love it! I continue to use it. Although I am seeking a bigger screen, I have reservations on PQ compared to my XBR. I did have the model under and after posting it on CL I ended up just giving it to a tv shop. Big-heavy and takes up space and power,but who cares?

I recently watched a laserdisc in a friend's CRT and almost missed the Sony 32" I gave away some months ago. It looked much better in the CRT than in flat panels.

But the advantages of flat panels compensate for any particularism such as the above.

 

[proufo]

I don't know what Netflix is like in the States but here it is absolutely pathetic unless you're into Breaking Bad there's precious little new on it movie-wise its abysmal.

Just got into Netflix. I find the quality adequate and the selection good enough for my current needs. Maybe in a year I will find it lacking.

 

[leevitalone1]

Netflix is a rip off! I paid because I had missed many SNL shows from the first 5 yrs, and they were the best! I ended up with edited shows! Some longer-most very short, with missing parts. Some I remember, and there was a lot edited out!
Big rip off!