MLP DVD-A as a Stereo archivial way

[winopener]

We all here are used to think to DVD-A as a multichannel source... and that's not a bad thing.
However, something lately crossed my mind. Follow me for a minute.

One of the biggest problem in the stereo audio playback hardware other than standard CD or DVD is that there is virtually NO support for a lossless compression scheme. WMA lossless, Flac, Ape, Wavpack etc... are all wonderful software encoders/decoders but no way on finding out a standalone player that does support one of these. They are relegated to PC/MAC platform, with a OS and some software player.

On the other side, the one of the standalone players, MLP on DVD-A do exist.

Nowadays the two can merge better than before: with the new MLP plugins what before was relegated to WinDVD or some Creative sound card can be fully used with any hardware. And a DVD-A does play lossless on standalone players.

So...
i can do a MLP dvd-a squeezing out 15-20 cd at 44.1/2/16 as in the original media, then
- have it work on a car as a virtual disc changer on my Acura,
- play it in my room with the hifi set and
- play at the office with the pc,
all this without loosing any bit of the original resolution. Fancy graphics are not mandatory.

Now it's your turn: what could be a argument against MLP as a archivial format, other than royalty? If there was a free MLP-compliant encoder would this be a better choice instead of Flac and similar?

 

[Key]

Some random thoughts.
Well I don't think 44.1 is supported for DVD A or V. So you would have to resample to 48kHz at least.
Will there ever be a free encoder? For real?
FLAC does have some hardware support but it's usually those media players that do it - popcorn hour
squeeze box etc... I think wavpack only had one media player that supported it but I haven't researched
these things in about a year and you would think technology would move fast like computers - every 6 months
a new set with better support - well you would think anyway haha I bet it's pretty much the same.

But yeah I think I had this idea when I first had to learn about MLP. And had a friend who was much more on top
of his codec game tell me the reality of the situation but that was then and maybe now things aren't as restrictive
or hard to find. A thought I had the other day was what about burning BD9 discs with PCM but it was just a thought
and I am more going the other way with my setup - trying to make my computer(s) do everything and keeping media
on large HDs instead of lots little individual hard to find in my highly disorganized life discs.

 

[ArnoldLayne]

I have a Naxos DVD-A that contains 44.1/24 surround MLP, so I guess it's supported.

I'm afraid I can only come up with pro's:

- There is a new MLP plugin for Foobar2000 that permits playback on PC.

- Some players like Oppo DV-980H can play MLP via their USB port.

- Stored as MLP, it is easier to take tracks from different albums and burn them on a DVD-A.

I really like FLAC, last spring I was using it a lot when I had my PC temporarly hooked to a receiver. But for the reasons above I'd go for MLP. Or maybe DVD-A disc images for hi-rez. Foobar can play them straight from ISO now.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

I have a Naxos DVD-A that contains 44.1/24 surround MLP, so I guess it's supported.

I'm afraid I can only come up with pro's:

- There is a new MLP plugin for Foobar2000 that permits playback on PC.

- Some players like Oppo DV-980H can play MLP via their USB port.

- Stored as MLP, it is easier to take tracks from different albums and burn them on a DVD-A.

I really like FLAC, last spring I was using it a lot when I had my PC temporarly hooked to a receiver. But for the reasons above I'd go for MLP. Or maybe DVD-A disc images for hi-rez. Foobar can play them straight from ISO now.

So could I put a whole bunch of MLP files on say a 2 Terra byte storage drive and hook it up to an Oppo DV-980H via the USB port and play them back? I'm running out of room for discs, even though I prefer them.

 

[Key]

I have a Naxos DVD-A that contains 44.1/24 surround MLP, so I guess it's supported.

I'm afraid I can only come up with pro's:

- There is a new MLP plugin for Foobar2000 that permits playback on PC.

- Some players like Oppo DV-980H can play MLP via their USB port.

- Stored as MLP, it is easier to take tracks from different albums and burn them on a DVD-A.

I really like FLAC, last spring I was using it a lot when I had my PC temporarly hooked to a receiver. But for the reasons above I'd go for MLP. Or maybe DVD-A disc images for hi-rez. Foobar can play them straight from ISO now.

I might have been thinking of Blu-Ray with the 44.1 thing.

Yeah whatever works for the person. I think DVD A/V is great. I am just more looking to make my music collection into a hassle free library that can be streamed through the house losslessly via wifi. I have all the parts just need another computer I guess - but my two good ones are being taken up atm.

Separate media can be a major hassle. I know this being a small format junkie and having various recording scattered across my home in various places and ambiguous labeling that I thought would be obvious at the time.

 

[Lucanu]

WMA is well supported by almost any DVD player.
If you do it lossless in WMA there is no need to MLP because that would mean you need a DVD-A player anyway, right?

 

[winopener]

I have a Naxos DVD-A that contains 44.1/24 surround MLP, so I guess it's supported.
I'm afraid I can only come up with pro's:
- There is a new MLP plugin for Foobar2000 that permits playback on PC.
- Some players like Oppo DV-980H can play MLP via their USB port.
- Stored as MLP, it is easier to take tracks from different albums and burn them on a DVD-A.
I really like FLAC, last spring I was using it a lot when I had my PC temporarly hooked to a receiver. But for the reasons above I'd go for MLP. Or maybe DVD-A disc images for hi-rez. Foobar can play them straight from ISO now.

DVD-A can support 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4 and 192 s/r at 16, 20 and 24 bit and from 1 to 8 channel. So, the possibility are really wide.
Good to know that Oppo can play directly MLP files from USB. That's a good plus. If it could mount a ordinary ISO from USB it would be a killer.

 

[winopener]

WMA is well supported by almost any DVD player.
If you do it lossless in WMA there is no need to MLP because that would mean you need a DVD-A player anyway, right?

WMA is supported, yes, but only in the compressed lossy format. I've tried several players with a lossless WMA and they refused it all.

 

[winopener]

Yeah whatever works for the person. I think DVD A/V is great. I am just more looking to make my music collection into a hassle free library that can be streamed through the house losslessly via wifi. I have all the parts just need another computer I guess - but my two good ones are being taken up atm.
Separate media can be a major hassle. I know this being a small format junkie and having various recording scattered across my home in various places and ambiguous labeling that I thought would be obvious at the time.

The streaming possibility is something that with a open plugin for Foobar and maybe VLC will be more than possible. However, streaming doesn't work - at least for now - in a car, so you need something else there. A dvd-a iso image could be mounted and streamed at home and *at least* burned on a disc for car playback, until someone find out that a usb hd repository is a decent idea even there.

 

[Key]

I still think even in the car a hard drive based system would work better. It's just that I haven't seen any that are decent quality and intuitive. Simply not enough competition at the moment or really consumer demand. And it's getting to the point where computers vs hardware might be an issue. Dedicated hardware is simply a small dedicated computer with software that is a pain in the butt to update. So at some point when the computers can be small and portable enough they will be in direct competition with the old way of having dedicated hardware. Because a computer is simply easier to update and more malleable.

 

[winopener]

A hard drive based system is closer... just don't call it hard drive. USB pen and SD media are getting bigger and bigger, the only problem is that at present time nothing for car use can mount a ISO and play it.
Just imagine a 64Gb pendrive with 16 dvd-a iso from cd, and each iso with a 15 cd in full cd quality (44.1/2/16). That makes a 240 cd you can carry in your pocket along with cigarettes, lighter and car keys.

 

[winopener]

Found some specs on dvd-a here: http://www.pavtube.com/dvd/info_dvd_audio_format.html

The only real problem i see is that the max. AudioTracks (ATT) is limited to 99. Try to imagine for example a Beatles discography into a single dvd-a disc at 44.1 stereo 16bit MLP and with 99 ATT you have half ISO disc empty and half discography to place on another ISO disc.
But... there are also the Index.
A solution would be using one ATT per Album and separate the songs with the Index feature.
Anyone has worked with Indexing on a dvd-a disc? Problems that can arise on that?

The DVD-Audio specification defines a hierarchical structure and units of access, with the focus of continuing with the same style of operations used with familiar previous audio discs. As in the past, one song corresponds to one track. However, since one 12 cm single-layer disc holds 4.7 GB and is thus has the capacity to hold multiple CD albums, it is possible to record many tracks on a single DVD. To improve accessability, the DVD-Audio specification combines multiple tracks which should be played sequentially into a newly-defined access unit called a Group. A Group is a logical unit, and can form a large structure of one or more sequential Audio Titles (ATT) as a single playback unit. This logical unit can be played continuously with a single operation.

Audio Title is a logical structure which is equivalent to a Title in DVD-Video, and is comprised of the presentation data to be played and the navigation data which determine the playback sequence. Unlike its DVD-Video counterpart, Audio Title is a unit of access that the user will not be concerned with. DVD-Audio does not allow complex playback sequences. However, adopting the Audio Title and Group as logical structures allows the construction of large works containing multiple units of content with differing parameters, such as different encoding methods (Linear PCM or Packed PCM), sampling frequencies, bit depths, multi-channel configurations, with or without video data, etc. Up to nine Groups can be contained within a Volume, and up to 99 ATTs can be contained within each Group. However, the maximum number of ATTs per disc Volume is also limited to 99.

Group and Track numbers are the units accessible by users from their DVD-Audio players. Further, a smaller, optional access unit called an Index is also defined. An Index is a playback unit which may be comprised of one or more cells. The Index was defined primarily to specify numbers of logical units within a track. Index numbers start from 1 within each Track.

 

[JonUrban]

Could you not just put each album in it's own group? Does the 99 track limit follow the group or the entire disc.

 

[winopener]

"However, the maximum number of ATTs per disc Volume is also limited to 99."

Using one or 9 groups doesn't make any difference, the 99 track is the maximum for the entire disc.
I'm trying to build up such a disc now, i can fill more than 10 hours of playback with 12 album on a single dvd.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

Using one or 9 groups doesn't make any difference, the 99 track is the maximum for the entire disc.
I'm trying to build up such a disc now, i can fill more than 10 hours of playback with 12 album on a single dvd.

How many hours of CD material could one do this as a DVD-V in PCM 44.1 kHz / 16 bit? And would there be a difference in sound or any advantages / disadvantages?
Thanks.

Added: Quote:
"Unlike its DVD-Video counterpart, Audio Title is a unit of access that the user will not be concerned with. DVD-Audio does not allow complex playback sequences."

 

[winopener]

First of all, for DVD-V you must resample everything at 48KHz, 44.1 isn't allowed in the Video zone.
That's the main reason for discarting DVD-V, you just can't rip a cd and place on a DVD straight as it is.
Second, if i use PCM for sure i have a shorter running time, for two reason:
1) there is no lossless compression scheme for the Video Zone, while on the Audio Zone i can use MLP.
2) 48KHz vs. 44.1 takes more space.
Assuming a resample from 44.1 to 48 (which is the thing i want to avoid) i can stuff probably between 6-7 hours. 44.1 with MLP can do more than 10 hours.

The main point for all this mess is to have no intervention whatsoever on the audio files: these are 44.1 16 2 and should stay this way. No resample or other fuzzy stuff.
The BIG drawback is the 99 track limits.
In conclusion, the structure is just one group and 99 tracks; some joining of tracks is needed in order to remain into the 99.
A "quick and dirty" shortcut would be using two track for any album as if it was Side1&Side2 of a good old LP. For sure it's a lot less troublesome to author.
About groups, i can't place a single album per group, as i have fit 12 albums and the max. groups are 9, so it does't make more sense - at least for now - to complicate things further.