No Wonder HD is not selling in Europe!

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neil wilkes

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
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Location
London, England
Apparently - and this will allegedly get fixed in October - both HD DVD & Blu Ray are unusable in PAL framerates of 25p and 50i.
You simply cannot create the discs due to problems with the Grade Film Implementation.
Blu Ray will sort of deal with 50i, but the quality is crap by all accounts.
Neither format can deal with 25p - this should change with HDMI 1.3, but I am not holding my breath. Right now, it's a mess.

Using NTSC via HDMI is the sole way to go. And if the player is also dealing with SD DVD at the same time, then the end user has to switch the HDMI resolution between 60Hz (NTSC) and 50Hz (PAL) depending on what disc he wants to play. I have found this to also be true with SD DVD via HDMI.
If I have the resolution set to 720p (50 Hz) and then play an NTSC disc, the motion judder is bad. Reset the HDMI resolution to 720p (60Hz) and it's okay again.
The reverse is equally true.

The whole thing is a nightmare for non technically minded users, and it is going to die a death if the manufacturers are not very careful.
 
If I have the resolution set to 720p (50 Hz) and then play an NTSC disc, the motion judder is bad. Reset the HDMI resolution to 720p (60Hz) and it's okay again.
The reverse is equally true.

Shouldn't that be automatic?

I'm probably confusing what you're saying with something else...but in my (non-HD) setup, I have an Oppo player set to upconvert everything to 720p connected via HDMI to a multistandard monitor. If I'm playing a PAL disc, the output goes to 50Hz, if I'm playing an NTSC disc, it goes to 60Hz. I have the player set up to output the native format of the disc being played and never have to manually change anything.

It seems really weird that HD would break that in the PAL world, assuming multistandard monitors. I'm obviously missing something technical that's over my head.
 
It seems to me like both camps were way too eager to enter the market. I mean, it's been like 18 months since the first Toshiba HD-DVD player hit the market, marking the start of HD on disc, and there are STILL pretty major issues to be fixed.

Not everyone is going to check some forums to see if there are updates available for their player every other day you know.
 
It seems to me like both camps were way too eager to enter the market. I mean, it's been like 18 months since the first Toshiba HD-DVD player hit the market, marking the start of HD on disc, and there are STILL pretty major issues to be fixed.

Not everyone is going to check some forums to see if there are updates available for their player every other day you know.


As long as there are two formats, I just don't think it matters, neither format can get airborn. You are right though, the general population isn't going to mess with this firmware update process. I just recently upgraded the firmware on my Toshiba HD-A1 HD DVD player and Samsung BD-P1000 Blu-ray player. I am grateful that both companies are supporting the early, not so very good players, and I continue to be happy with the performance of both but unhappy with the software selection for both.

Chris
 
Hi Neil,
Apparently - and this will allegedly get fixed in October - both HD DVD & Blu Ray are unusable in PAL framerates of 25p and 50i.
You simply cannot create the discs due to problems with the Grade Film Implementation.
Blu Ray will sort of deal with 50i, but the quality is crap by all accounts.
Neither format can deal with 25p - this should change with HDMI 1.3, but I am not holding my breath. Right now, it's a mess.

I don't think that the market for HD players for self-made HD material is very huge right now anywhere. Since the primary focus for the new HD media is playing pre-recorded discs with movies in the best possible quality, I think the lack of 50i and 25p support is not really the biggest issue.

Also, I don't know why HDMI1.3 should have anything to do with this. The only thing it adds picture-wise is the extended color space, and this is also a non-issue for pre-recorded movie discs.

What is more of an issue in Europe is the lack of 24p support! Movies are shot with 24 frames per second, and for converting this to the PAL standard, the movie is played back 4% faster (PAL speedup), which gives you smooth movements, but is not without its drawbacks. Usually - because of this - the audio has a higher pitch (approximately a half-tone), which for people who possess an absolute hearing can be quite annoying - so I'm told. There are DVDs where the pitch is adjusted, but the film is still played back faster than in the cinema.

In the US, the conversion to the 30i of the NTSC standard is done by a process called 3:2 Pulldown which leads to a slight stutter in zooms and pans. American audiences usually don't notice this - they have been conditioned to ignore these artifacts for many decades. But many European viewers pick up on this because they are used to smooth movements.

The PS3 actually can by now output the 24p signal, but you still need to have a display or projection system that can deal with this signal. This has nothing to do with HDMI1.3, an in fact there are such displays available which have only HDMI1.1 inputs. For the Toshiba XE1 HD DVD player a firmware upgrade was announced by Toshiba, but the original release date for this (mid July) was bumped to at least fall and possibly around Christmas. :(

There are many people to blame here! First of all the people who defined the HDTV standard in the first place, because they just were too caught in their own little world of television to even think of the necessities for a perfect reproduction of cinematic material! So the 24fps were never part of the original standard.

Then there are the (Japanese and American?) developers of HD DVD and Blu-ray who also never thought about this before they presented the finished products to the European market. There was an article in the "Audiovision", which is a leading German home theatre magazine. I tink it was Panasonics presentation of Blu-ray for the journalists in Germany (or Europe?). I guess they were expecting aaahhhs and ooohhs from the journalists. Instead they were asked about the motion studder and what they were going to do about it. The guys doing the presentation were seemingly caught completely off-guard and uncomprenedingly asked the journalists if they though that this was really an issue and if this would matter... :eek:

So, short of Pioneer who built in the 24p capability in their HD displays early on, none of the big companies gave a second though about this before the European home theatre press made a fuss about it.

Having said all that, as someone who owns hundreds of Region 1 NTSC DVDs, I am also not really that bothered by this effect and I can really enjoy watching an HD DVD in all its full HD glory!

Best regards,
Oliver

P.S.: I almost forgot: at least when it comes to the German market, I think the main problem is the lackluster support by the DVD stores (HD DVDs and Blu-rays are outrageously priced almost everywhere) and the content industry (there are far fewer titles available here than in the US and release dates get bumped all the time, which for me is a reason that I started with HD DVD, which has no regional coding; for Blu-ray I would have to get a player from the US; if they would drop that stupid regional codin altogether, I would buy a Blu-ray player before you can say "Quadraphonic").
 
All players that accept 24p also have problems.
The Players that will take these discs are doing a 3:2 to 29.97 (according to Abbey Road Interactive) so the artifacts are shocking.

I agree with you about 24p being - probably - the best way forward, as this will be a great start to getting round the whole PAL-NTSC & Europe-Asia-Yank thing that is currently going on.

IMHO, both formats are broken, with no real sign of any fix in the forseeable future. 25p should happen in October. 50i probably won't.
 
Hi Neil,
All players that accept 24p also have problems.
The Players that will take these discs are doing a 3:2 to 29.97 (according to Abbey Road Interactive) so the artifacts are shocking.
The artifacts are exactly the same as those of American standard DVDs, how shocking they are is a matter of how perceptible one is to them. Personally, I am quite used to this from all my Region1 DVDs...

Best regards,
Oliver
 
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