Random Stuff About Surround Sound

[Sonik Wiz]

Odd those BBD devices. They were not brilliant I seem to recall (fairly high distortion in most applications I think), but there was nothing else like them. Strange then that they seemed to vanish practically overnight.

I've only built one project with the analog BBD & had no problems with the chip or circuit. It wasn't intended to be used for rear ch ambience reproduction but for special effects & up-mixing done the hard way:

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/diy-quadraphlange.26968/

 

[DuncanS]

I've only built one project with the analog BBD & had no problems with the chip or circuit. It wasn't intended to be used for rear ch ambience reproduction but for special effects & up-mixing done the hard way:

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/diy-quadraphlange.26968/

My Professor on Semiconductor Physics was one of the developers of the BBD device, if I remember correctly the technology ended up in the imager for digital cameras. The audio ones were a side 'show'. I did look at building a BBD click remover for vinyl, but never got round to it. Great in Phlangers though!

 

[Owen Smith]

My Professor on Semiconductor Physics was one of the developers of the BBD device, if I remember correctly the technology ended up in the imager for digital cameras. The audio ones were a side 'show'. I did look at building a BBD click remover for vinyl, but never got round to it. Great in Phlangers though!

CCD (Charge Coupled Device) image sensors use a bucket brigade type effect to read each row of pixels. You read one pixel, the bucket brigade moves everything on one column, and then you read the next pixel from the same location.

Push Broom imaging on spacecraft goes one further, in that the spacecraft yaws at the same rate the bucket brigade operates to get a longer exposure, so the same location on Mars (say) is being imaged into the same pixel even as it bucket brigades its way across the CCD. That's so clever I wish I'd thought of it.

For digital cameras and phones these days CCDs are obsolete, CMOS sensors have taken their place. Every pixel is individually addressed in place, no bucket brigade stuff. They have less image noise than CCDs. Some applications still prefer CCDs as they have more contrast and can image lower absolute brightness.

 

[MagnumX]

Yes the numbers don't add up. I always find it curious that the front speakers are always shown placed so close together with modern 5.1 systems. With the centre speaker you could place them a bit farther apart. I like the rears a bit more forward off to the sides.

That's what front wides are for. The mains are for syncing action/dialog to the projection screen, although let's face it, most home theater people don't do that at all since most films aren't using panned dialog, but I found things lined up perfectly with Harry Potter in DTS:X here (I was psyched) and I just moved my mains even closer together (the center is to lock the middle in place for off-axis seats; that isn't really changed by distance as even a slight offset with stereo no matter how close together pulls to one side due to the precedence effect.

Yes, I loathe centre speakers with a passion! Far from being of any benefit, I find they actually ruin a decent stereo image. Their only value is as firewood as far as I’m concerned.

Nah. That means you're not doing it right. First of all, you MUST have an identical speaker to the left/right mains. That "center speaker" crap where they give you some speaker turned on its side to set on top of a 1995 television is a load of bollocks. This is 2021 for god's sake. Any flat screen can have 3 identical speakers placed under it as you can hang the dang thing on the wall! You don't need a console set or a cabinet to place them in. Projection can even use audio transparent screens. There is no reason to use anything less than an identical model speaker in most rooms these days.

Secondly, it must be placed correctly and delays must be set correctly. Do this and there is literally no difference here with or without the center speaker from the MLP (main listening position aka the best seat centered between everything, although I have three rows of "centered seats" so it's more like the front row adjusted for room correction with a room based average of +/- 3dB (not speaker, the speakers PLUS the room). I can turn the center speaker on/off and I can't hear one whit of a difference. It sounds identical either way in every mode. All that PLII "Music" mode crap is for non-matching center speakers (by turning the center down and using the L/R more it sounds "better" for music and that's because the "center channel speaker" is a POS compared to most people's mains).

This is a bit old photo-wise and the center speaker has a black grill (bought them in two different orders and two are painted black and so have grey grilles; I haven't been able to find some black ones to match them all up, but it matters little in the dark). But there's three identical model speakers there (left/right photos show the front wides, which I have enabled in a passive mix in "stereo" mode to really widen the room soundstage out while movies line right up with the screen. The "wides" have identical tweeters and midrange drivers as the front towers. In fact, all 17 of my speakers have the same drivers save the 4 in the back which are slightly newer designs, but sound almost exactly the same). Most home theaters have 5.1 speakers or 7.1 speakers. I have 7.1 speakers just in the front (L/C/R + 2 front wides + 2 heights + subwoofer). I've got another ten to the side and behind me and overhead.




These are my speaker angles. I hope the SM V3 can work (Marantz AVR has 7.1 inputs so that should be good to connect it):

Well, I'm a HUGE Proponent of 3D ..... They finally perfected the format BRILLIANTLY with the advent of OLED TV and then KAPUT .... No more 3D TVs are being manufactured and a paltry number of 3D films have been released on home video and in theaters ...... BOO HOO!

Projectors are still being made with 3D and a really large screen is the way to go with 3D anyway, IMO, although an 85" OLED would be nice....

As for movies, I just got Jumanji - The Next Level in 3D from Australia a few days ago (added the DTS:X soundtrack from the 4K UHD disc). Lovely. I also got Kong Vs. Godzilla in 3D and Wonder Woman 1984 in 3D this year (not bad considering they were never really in many theaters in 3D due to the pandemic).

I now have 251 movies/shows/concerts in 3D on Blu-Ray, which I can play ALL of them from my Xidoo X9S off hard drive (no discs needed for playback) and around 1100 Blu-Rays and UHD Blu-Rays (plus streaming iTunes titles as well). So 251 out of 1200 is almost 1 out of 5 movies in 3D. That's not too bad when you think about it given I've got more movies from the 1940s than I do the 1970s even. Just ask Bogey!

 

[chucky3042]

Yes, I loathe centre speakers with a passion! Far from being of any benefit, I find they actually ruin a decent stereo image. Their only value is as firewood as far as I’m concerned.

Totally with you Soundfield! Once you have used electrostatics for 25 years you begin to understand what precise imaging is about and how the center just is not required.

Yes blah blah, the real reason for the introduction of the center was so those who sit outside the sweets pot could locate the center artist in the correct position (preferably not under the TV).

Yes there is a way around the problem, it's called our SST (sweet Spot Technology). Actually works without a center, sit anywhere, everyone gets the same consistent stage positioning. We used to call it Total Perspective..... I lost, bloody marketing types!

 

[Soundfield]

Nah. That means you're not doing it right.

You seem to have some strange idea that I am remotely interested in watching movies or recreating some form of ghastly cinema experience. As far as I'm concerned, from the perspective of the hi-fi reproduction of music, less is more.

 

[MagnumX]

Totally with you Soundfield! Once you have used electrostatics for 25 years you begin to understand what precise imaging is about and how the center just is not required.

Yes blah blah, the real reason for the introduction of the center was so those who sit outside the sweets pot could locate the center artist in the correct position (preferably not under the TV).

Yes there is a way around the problem, it's called our SST (sweet Spot Technology). Actually works without a center, sit anywhere, everyone gets the same consistent stage positioning. We used to call it Total Perspective..... I lost, bloody marketing types!

And yet your product supports a center channel speaker? If you don't believe in it, why is it there instead of this SST controls (which I find hard to believe as that implies it can defeat the laws of physics). No, I don't use a center channel speaker with my active crossover driven six foot Carver ribbon speakers upstairs because I neither have nor could I fit a 3rd Carver ribbon speaker in the middle (there's a piano there just for starters). But then I'm normally the only one listening to them so I can sit right in the sweet spot.

You seem to have some strange idea that I am remotely interested in watching movies or recreating some form of ghastly cinema experience. As far as I'm concerned, from the perspective of the hi-fi reproduction of music, less is more.

A ghastly cinema experience?

Identical speakers should sound identical and using a center should not modify the image whatsoever if it's the same. It doesn't have to be a ghastly cinema experience. It applies to music as well.

But yeah, I'm definitely having a ghastly time watching Harry Potter with all that's going on around them flying around my room above me and all around me with extreme precision in discrete multi-channel DTS:X. It's just awful!

What's worse yet is listening to Yello's new album Point in Atmos! Sounds don't belong on the ceiling and everywhere all around me in my 24' room, rendered discretely with up to 34 channels! Or the John Williams concert from Vienna in Atmos making it sound like I'm actually there in the room. You're right. It's absolutely GHASTLY!

 

[hobie1dog]

First of all, you MUST have an identical speaker to the left/right mains. That "center speaker" crap where they give you some speaker turned on its side to set on top of a 1995 television is a load of bollocks. This is 2021 for god's sake. Any flat screen can have 3 identical speakers placed under it as you can hang the dang thing on the wall! You don't need a console set or a cabinet to place them in. Projection can even use audio transparent screens. There is no reason to use anything less than an identical model speaker in most rooms these days.
`
Secondly, it must be placed correctly and delays must be set correctly. Do this and there is literally no difference here with or without the center speaker from the MLP (main listening position aka the best seat centered between everything, although I have three rows of "centered seats" so it's more like the front row adjusted for room correction with a room based average of +/- 3dB (not speaker, the speakers PLUS the room). I can turn the center speaker on/off and I can't hear one whit of a difference. It sounds identical either way in every mode. All that PLII "Music" mode crap is for non-matching center speakers (by turning the center down and using the L/R more it sounds "better" for music and that's because the "center channel speaker" is a POS compared to most people's mains).

+1

 

[chucky3042]

9

And yet your product supports a center channel speaker? If you don't believe in it, why is it there instead of this SST controls (which I find hard to believe as that implies it can defeat the laws of physics). No, I don't use a center channel speaker with my active crossover driven six foot Carver ribbon speakers upstairs because I neither have nor could I fit a 3rd Carver ribbon speaker in the middle (there's a piano there just for starters). But then I'm normally the only one listening to them so I can sit right in the sweet spot.



A ghastly cinema experience?

Identical speakers should sound identical and using a center should not modify the image whatsoever if it's the same. It doesn't have to be a ghastly cinema experience. It applies to music as well.

But yeah, I'm definitely having a ghastly time watching Harry Potter with all that's going on around them flying around my room above me and all around me with extreme precision in discrete multi-channel DTS:X. It's just awful!

What's worse yet is listening to Yello's new album Point in Atmos! Sounds don't belong on the ceiling and everywhere all around me in my 24' room, rendered discretely with up to 34 channels! Or the John Williams concert from Vienna in Atmos making it sound like I'm actually there in the room. You're right. It's absolutely GHASTLY!

Hi MagmumX
We include the center output in the SM because most customers want it. I have always been open that I personally do not use it or recommend it, but that's me.

Re our SST, it really does work, it's fully patented, based on the HAAS precedence effect, needs highly directional speakers to work (electrostatics are great).

In practice we have found that when in use you really do not care where you sit, there is no fight for the center. Our problem is that we have failed to popularize the system. For surround it actually needs 4 (double panel) speakers, 8 amplifiers.

It was demonstrated to QQ member "Dwight" when he visited us in Melbourne. On my phone at the moment, happy to send you links to the interview of his experience in his interview for QQ.

It took me 2 years of thinking to work it out, then suddenly one day on a bike ride, between a phone call from a stupid lawyer and a bike crash the idea hit me. It really was simple, mocked it up, and it worked.

Bugger it, I will post the interview later tonight when I am near to my computer!

 

[chucky3042]

As promised here is the interview with Dwight who was in Australia on work and decided to drop in and visit us for a few days. He listened to our SST technology (actually a cone based version), it was then called Total Perspective as referred in the interview. On our side of the fence was my humble self, Dave the Bitch and Dawson.

For shits and giggles and for the technically minded I have also attached our patent. Also I have attached our Y4 system electrostatic speaker designed for SST

Enjoy

 

[jaybird100]

9

Hi MagmumX
We include the center output in the SM because most customers want it. I have always been open that I personally do not use it or recommend it, but that's me.

Re our SST, it really does work, it's fully patented, based on the HAAS precedence effect, needs highly directional speakers to work (electrostatics are great).

In practice we have found that when in use you really do not care where you sit, there is no fight for the center. Our problem is that we have failed to popularize the system. For surround it actually needs 4 (double panel) speakers, 8 amplifiers.

It was demonstrated to QQ member "Dwight" when he visited us in Melbourne. On my phone at the moment, happy to send you links to the interview of his experience in his interview for QQ.

It took me 2 years of thinking to work it out, then suddenly one day on a bike ride, between a phone call from

9

Hi MagmumX
We include the center output in the SM because most customers want it. I have always been open that I personally do not use it or recommend it, but that's me.

Re our SST, it really does work, it's fully patented, based on the HAAS precedence effect, needs highly directional speakers to work (electrostatics are great).

In practice we have found that when in use you really do not care where you sit, there is no fight for the center. Our problem is that we have failed to popularize the system. For surround it actually needs 4 (double panel) speakers, 8 amplifiers.

It was demonstrated to QQ member "Dwight" when he visited us in Melbourne. On my phone at the moment, happy to send you links to the interview of his experience in his interview for QQ.

It took me 2 years of thinking to work it out, then suddenly one day on a bike ride, between a phone call from a stupid lawyer and a bike crash the idea hit me. It really was simple, mocked it up, and it worked.

Bugger it, I will post the interview later tonight when I am near to my computer!

Another reason why the SM has a 5.1 output is for movies, Dolby Surround-encoded, on such legacy formats as VHS or Beta tapes, or Laserdisc. For these, the center channel is quite effective. For music, however, I use the 4.1 setting. To my ears, it's more faithful to the intent of the mix when playing quad records.
S

 

[jaybird100]

Odd those BBD devices. They were not brilliant I seem to recall (fairly high distortion in most applications I think), but there was nothing else like them. Strange then that they seemed to vanish practically overnight.

Those BBD devices were nothing BUT distortion!

 

[chucky3042]

Those BBD devices were nothing BUT distortion!

And noise

 

[MidiMagic]

Does SM have delays in it? If so, what kind of delay is used?

 

[chucky3042]

Does SM have delays in it? If so, what kind of delay is used?

None

 

[MidiMagic]

None

Then how do you put an image directly to the side and make it sound like it is coming from the correct direction?

 

[chucky3042]

Then how do you put an image directly to the side and make it sound like it is coming from the correct direction?

That's part of my secret herbs and spices

 

[JohnA]

So when would we expect a taste of this spice mix?

 

[chucky3042]

So when would we expect a taste of this spice mix?

Tried the Carolina Reaper?

 

[Soundfield]

Then how do you put an image directly to the side and make it sound like it is coming from the correct direction?

I’ve not seen any matrix format that has a delay parameter in its decoding equations.