Vinyl - do you play them loud?

[GOS]

OK, now that I have all you vinyl lovers attention. If the answer is yes, do you often (most often) hear between song, noise? No, not clicks and pops. More like, a sort of "scraping" noise...for the lack of a better term.

I do. I hear it on both TT. My previous Project, and now my Pioneer. I'm also using a new cartridge/stylus combo (more expensive) and same story.

So. Let's talk. Back in the day when I had cheapo TT...I don't remember this happening. Maybe it did, and I was oblivious to it. Maybe I never had the "watts" to play it this loud. Who knows. I do know, I find it annoying, if not jarring.

Do I hear it on all vinyl? Well, I can't answer that yet. I'd have to spin a bunch, take notes. Yes, it happens on both old vinyl, and new. Again, I don't know if it's all, or just some.

Do I ever notice it when I'm playing at modest levels? No, not really.

Thoughts??

OOps - let me also say that I do have my TT super level and do have clean vinyl with a wash system. I also have verified (multiple times) that my anti-skating and downforce settings per stylus are accurate according to a device that measures such things.

 

[jimfisheye]

What!?!?

Sorry... That's a YES! to loud.

Surface noise?
Depends on the pressing.
First gen MFSL pressings are just about the most perfect pressings I've ever heard as a general rule. I'd honestly be able to answer "Not even the slightest little sound!" for most of those. (Depending on my brush handling ability at the moment of course.)
2nd gen MFSL are still up there. 3rd gen were starting to slide in quality. In more recent times, Classic Records were pretty quiet. Not MFSL quiet though! The reborn MFSL vinyl (after their demise into CDs and SACDs) is noisy garbage. And hyped (loud) mastering.

There are the occasional ancient regular old pressings that are stunningly quiet and perfect. And there are examples out there with noise louder than the program! Colored vinyl and picture discs were more "novelty" pressings and could be pretty noisy.

Benz Micro MC-3
Linn Basik LV-X
AR Model E
Mark Levinson No. 28

Calibrated with assistance from HiFi News Analog Test LP (The Producers Cut) and Cardas Frequency Sweep and burn-in record. Everything is pretty dialed in. I think I remember the 2 tone resonance tests being the most difficult to nail. Both those and being able to track the full 15db tracking tests at all 3 spots (start, middle, end of side) require a pretty critical setting of the tracking force. (I can't remember what that was. Probably 1.something gram. Maybe pushing towards 2 and I think this is expected from these Benz Micro cartridges. This was all some years ago now.)

All Ebay snipes years ago. Very much a "scavenger's special" system! The table isolates. No feedback of any kind. I could literally jump up and down in the room hard. The tonearm is also kind of low budget and was barely able to be adjusted into calibration. Absolute PITA. Would not recommend. Got it there though! Not sure what I would put together specifically if money were no object. Someone let that Mark Levinson go for $1300 and no one else bid (circa 2001) if you want a reason to throw stuff at me! It's my main stereo preamp for the digital system DAC output as well.

 

[quadsearcher]

I use an old Dual and a Shure M44, play loud sometimes, no scrape noise. But that combo is not so hifi. I have a conical stylus on there.
Also , an old Sansui with Radio Shack cart. Play that one loud, usually through Surround Master. No scrapey. Well, some noise one might expect when four channels are pretty much full on. I've also used a Yamaha TT with various AT carts, loud.
I have heard what you describe on somebody's system somewhere. They were running more power than I had at the time. Maybe I got acclimated to it over the years? When I was a kid I had at best 20wpc and the only records with groove noise in the dead space were former jukebox records.
Do you use some kind of protractor for alignment? The Geodisc is a great help.
But really, it depends on SPL. If you are up to 90+dB or so then the DR of the medium means there has to be some noise in the space between songs.
It is a rock scraping across a petroleum byproduct after all.
I'd have to say if your are getting close to concert level (like one might almost need hearing protection) there will for sure be some noise on empty grooves, but is shouldn't be pitched like a whistle, more like amp hiss or the usual ticks and pops. The sound of the needle riding in the groove.

 

[quicksrt]

No no scraping noise at all. A little bit of rumble on very old records as they are often not mirror flat. Inner groove distortion on a very few records that are worn in that last area because they were played on a poor quality TT or a worn stylus or both. But usually, I can clean every bit of dust out of a record, and track with the VM540ML, and some that are very often better than a CD release for sound quality.

For the most part, my vinyl sounds amazing. This cartridge handles grooves like you would not believe. It's a bad-ass mother-fucker of a cartridge.

VM540ML - Dual Moving Magnet Cartridge | Audio-Technica

Audio-Technica VM540ML MicroLine Dual ... - Amazon.com

 

[Cyber 1]

If your hearing that same kind of sound from both tables then it is highly unlikely a turn tables issue. some records that are badly pressing can produce a swoosh type of sound.
So you need to be sure it is an analog only issue, so do you hear this noise when playing a stereo CD?

 

[GOS]

If your hearing that same kind of sound from both tables then it is highly unlikely a turn tables issue. some records that are badly pressing can produce a swoosh type of sound.
So you need to be sure it is an analog only issue, so do you hear this noise when playing a stereo CD?

Oh, gosh no. This is only vinyl.

 

[GOS]

Since we all have different interpretations of what "scrape" might sound like. Tomorrow, I will record some 10 second snips and post.

 

[MikeMonaco]

I definitely play them loud....sometimes. I'm playing my LPs on a Technics SL-15 table with a 310 MC cart. Using a NAD PP2 pre-amp going into Technics SA-500 amp and out to Heresey's. For most new vinyl they can be very quiet, and I haven't noticed any weird noises between tracks. Will be interesting to hear your recording.

 

[markshan]

Depends on the pressing and the cleanliness. I have had times where the surface noise was somewhat loud but an ultrasonic cleaning quieted it significantly. Other times it's just a pressing defect.

 

[Doug G.]

Loud? Yes!

Sometimes, it's amazing how imperfect the lathes were for rumble and wow and flutter. We tend to think of them as precise but they weren't always so. Same with tape machines.

Doug

 

[jimfisheye]

There are just some pressings out there that are noisy. I've heard constant scraping sounds before. That's what just about any picture disc sounds like, actually.

Apparently I needed to flex about my old ass vinyl setup... If I had any point in there, it was that even with a more boutique and genuinely dialed in system, it's still "garbage in, garbage out". There are noisy vinyl pressings out there.

I think if you get a cartridge with a smaller stylus you can track further down into the groove. That leads to avoiding the higher edge of the inside of the groove where the precision of the molded groove starts to falter. That also leads to avoiding picking up damage by tracking below where a surface scratch cut into the groove.

 

[marpow]

I don't own a turn table and have no experience in the subject matter, but it is so nice to read a gear thread where everyone is considerate and helpful.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

There are just some pressings out there that are noisy. I've heard constant scraping sounds before. That's what just about any picture disc sounds like, actually.

Apparently I needed to flex about my old ass vinyl setup... If I had any point in there, it was that even with a more boutique and genuinely dialed in system, it's still "garbage in, garbage out". There are noisy vinyl pressings out there.

I think if you get a cartridge with a smaller stylus you can track further down into the groove. That leads to avoiding the higher edge of the inside of the groove where the precision of the molded groove starts to falter. That also leads to avoiding picking up damage by tracking below where a surface scratch cut into the groove.

So Jim, what stylus are smaller or thinner, like Shibata or MicroLine or something else?

 

[GOS]

So, I've played several records this morning. I've come to the conclusion that the problem is most likely just the source vinyl. It's unfortunate, really. Nearly all used vinyls I played had significant scraping sounds during between song parts. The scraping isn't constant. It's as if it happens only on a specific few inches of the vinyl. So, as it turns, the scraping comes and goes in a very predictable manner. If you know what I mean.

I finally got out one of my prized vinyls.

Billy Joel - Glass Houses
Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab (MFSL) 45 RPM , Original Master Recording, GAIN 2 Ultra Analog

It simply BLOWS every other vinyl I have (standard type vinyl pressings) out of the water. Forget the fidelity for a minute......between songs is nearly quiet. None of the scraping, etc. Man, if all vinyl sounded like that...geez.

Finally, again...I'm talking about the scraping being noticeable when I'm playing at near reference volumes.

 

[Clint Eastwood]

If your hearing that same kind of sound from both tables then it is highly unlikely a turn tables issue. some records that are badly pressing can produce a swoosh type of sound.
So you need to be sure it is an analog only issue, so do you hear this noise when playing a stereo CD?

I hope Nike doesn't hear about this...they might want a royalty

 

[jimfisheye]

So Jim, what stylus are smaller or thinner, like Shibata or MicroLine or something else?

I'm not sure as a rule. It's just something I read about. I think Benz Micro is supposed to at least be on the narrow side. I don't think this MC-3 is extra special with that but I have seen surface scratches that I then don't hear. I haven't exactly been able to compare a lot of different ones. Let me just line up a bunch of $2000 cartridges... You'd want one of the tone arms with the micrometer adjustments on all axis that sell for just as much.

I had interest in getting closer to recording sources and jumped down the rabbit hole just a little with the turntable around the turn of the century. There were still old records with less generational sounding copies of the music that the various CD reissues (still are) and things were kind of weird before 24 bit everything took over. But I'm a musician, sound guy, and small time studio guy (ie poor.) so this was all scavenging equipment off Ebay.

I feel like I did pretty well and have pretty accurate sound (as any pressing permits) but I don't have a showroom system with some infinitely dial-able Manley preamp or somesuch. People talk about 'working' things a bit for different albums. The old school approach with some of this gear was to allow the consumer to be final mastering engineer as it were. My quest is always the cleanest lowest generation from the source (for good or bad). Some of those are hiding in old vinyl.

 

[Cyber 1]

Billy Joel - Glass Houses
Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab (MFSL) 45 RPM , Original Master Recording, GAIN 2 Ultra Analog

It simply BLOWS every other vinyl I have (standard type vinyl pressings) out of the water. Forget the fidelity for a minute......between songs is nearly quiet. None of the scraping, etc. Man, if all vinyl sounded like that...geez.

mechanical noise from vinyl should only occur on a few records and be silent on more then just you prized high $ ones, possibly the ones your hearing have been damaged by a previous owner dragging a bad stylus through them or they have been incorrectly cleaned at one point in their lives.

But it does sound like the albums you like the best may need upgrades to high end vinyl pressings because as we all know, it's only a $ issue.
Grab a few of those Mofi Dire Straights 45 RPM's they will but a smile on your face.

 

[markshan]

Or not cleaned at all. I'm a big believer in RCMs. They don't have to be expensive either...

Squeaky Clean Vinyl MK-III RCM 3D Printed Record Cleaner (Classic Black)

 

[quicksrt]

I’m finding used records that are so dusty and dirty that I would never put them in a RCM and then put another in the same machine after. I would never use a brush on one dusty record and then again on another.

I prefer deluted dish soap and water rinse, dry with clean terry cloth towel. All dust and dirt goes down the drain. But this takes skill and know-how. Certain types of labels don’t handle water as well as others.

But boy my cleaning works well, needle drops to digital and then use if click repair and end results sound like new records most often. I enjoy the process but not everyone would.

 

[jimfisheye]

Proper cleaning, yes, and that includes new ones! Mold release lubrication left behind and such makes a lot of noise. And especially if someone slathered the poor thing with some liquid from one of those cheapo kits! (Memorex, D2, etc) You might be surprised at the scraping sounds that those cheapo "cleaning" fluids can generate. More like uncleaning kits!