Listen to the vinyl. The guitars sound totally different, Bruce as made a complete mess of it. On the DVD the guitars are weak and barely audible.
Opeth "Deliverance" and "Damnation" Remixed
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Listen to the vinyl. The guitars sound totally different, Bruce as made a complete mess of it. On the DVD the guitars are weak and barely audible.
Based on the credits inside the book, I don't think any of us can completely praise or blame Bruce Soord for what we are hearing.
It says inside "Mastering by Jaime Gomez", and it seems like he mastered the new stereo and surround mixes for both "Deliverance" and "Damnation" as it doesn't list a specific album or mix by his mastering credit.
So therefore when it comes to "Deliverance", I don't think it's completely fair to say that Bruce applied a significant amount of compression and limiting to his mixes, as we don't know what they are really like without hearing the flat mixes before mastering.
It says inside "Mastering by Jaime Gomez", and it seems like he mastered the new stereo and surround mixes for both "Deliverance" and "Damnation" as it doesn't list a specific album or mix by his mastering credit.
So therefore when it comes to "Deliverance", I don't think it's completely fair to say that Bruce applied a significant amount of compression and limiting to his mixes, as we don't know what they are really like without hearing the flat mixes before mastering.
Jaime Gomez mastered the stereo mixes for the vinyls in this new set. I am unsure if he also mastered the mixes on the CD/DVDs even though he is listed in the production credits. Perhaps that is a question that should be asked for him, Bruce or Steven.
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SW is on record saying he doesn't allow mastering, per se, of his own work (I think he allows minor tweaks to bass management and such, but no overall vibe-altering eq and no compression or limiting).
I wonder if that extends to his remixes, including Damnation?
I wonder if that extends to his remixes, including Damnation?
It sometimes extends to the remixes, but unlike his own music, he's not in full control of if, when, and how it's released, and that also extends to decisions on mastering after the mixing has been completed.
All I know is that if Jaime Gomez did indeed master the new stereo and surround mixes of "Damnation", he did a hell of a lot better job on the mastering of this release of it than Steven Wilson did mastering the original stereo mix himself when the CD originally came out in 2003. Such an amazing album killed by such an awful mastering the first time around. SW was wise to stick to just mixing after that...
Ge Someone
1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
I love this set. Why isn't there an entry in the DTS disk polls?
But, Bruce mixed BOTH the stereo and surround tracks, so how can the mix sound different on each medium? I can only assume that the mastering on both versions is severely different to cause this. I think it's wrong to say that Bruce has ''made a complete mess of it'' without all the facts.
Whoa! What's wrong with the original release/mix/master of Damnation? It has the same DR as the new mix/master (DR8). It certainly doesn't sound ''awful''. I will have to double check but I don't think SW actually mastered it either - I'm sure back then he was only doing mixing and letting others do the mastering.
Cause it hasn't been created yet. Send a request to Bob Romano, who runs that section of the polls.
DR numbers don't always matter to me. The original master has lots of unwanted audible distortion that's not audible on this new stereo mix and master.
And yes, Steven Wilson did master the original stereo mix. He's credited as such here: http://www.discogs.com/Opeth-Damnation/release/711994
After several listen to all versions(Deliverance), and some contradictory comments, I can now state my final verdict.
I now understand why SW always listens to the stereo version.
First of all I love the album with the exception of the repetitive first 5 or 6 minutes of music.
The DVD is nowhere near as dynamic as the original vinyl. See the Wavforms for By The Pain I See In Others Vinyl and DVD below.
The bass is considerably thicker and quite dominant at times in the Bruce Soord mix. The higher frequencies are lacking, and the mid and low frequencies seem to dominant mix. The clarity between instruments is at times poor. If one compares it with the vinyl version, it is night and day. The vinyl is open, clear, clean and crisp. The most infuriating thing is the lack of clarity in the guitars. On the DVD version they are mostly feint and weak in the background, instead of sitting in the same place as original stereo mix.
I do love some of the drum rolls in rears, there's some nice stuff with vocals here and there but overall not as great as it could have been. The bass is certainly more audible than previous version, the vocals are more upfront with a truly ridiculous amount compression on them, and there is a lot of discrete elements in rears.
I would rate it a 6/10.
Opeth surround mixes in order of best to worst;
Pale Communion
Heritage(although mastering not great)
Watershed
Damnation
Black Water Park
Still life
Deliverance
Ghost Reveries
I now understand why SW always listens to the stereo version.
First of all I love the album with the exception of the repetitive first 5 or 6 minutes of music.
The DVD is nowhere near as dynamic as the original vinyl. See the Wavforms for By The Pain I See In Others Vinyl and DVD below.
The bass is considerably thicker and quite dominant at times in the Bruce Soord mix. The higher frequencies are lacking, and the mid and low frequencies seem to dominant mix. The clarity between instruments is at times poor. If one compares it with the vinyl version, it is night and day. The vinyl is open, clear, clean and crisp. The most infuriating thing is the lack of clarity in the guitars. On the DVD version they are mostly feint and weak in the background, instead of sitting in the same place as original stereo mix.
I do love some of the drum rolls in rears, there's some nice stuff with vocals here and there but overall not as great as it could have been. The bass is certainly more audible than previous version, the vocals are more upfront with a truly ridiculous amount compression on them, and there is a lot of discrete elements in rears.
I would rate it a 6/10.
Opeth surround mixes in order of best to worst;
Pale Communion
Heritage(although mastering not great)
Watershed
Damnation
Black Water Park
Still life
Deliverance
Ghost Reveries
Attachments
Well,I Really like this set,both the music and the mixes.I don't measure the music I listen to it.:music. If There were a poll
for this set I would give it a 9.
for this set I would give it a 9.
Keenly, can you confirm what exact sources you're talking about? When you say original vinyl are you talking about the 2003 releases, 2008 re-press, MOV re-issue or 2015 remix?
When you talk about the DVD, are you meaning the hi-res stereo or surround?
Those wavforms, the vinyl does look better (obviously) but the dynamics don't look hugely better, more that there is less limiting/compression. I'd like to see that Vinyl wavform normalized to -0.1db just to see a fairer comparison between them.
When you talk about the DVD, are you meaning the hi-res stereo or surround?
Those wavforms, the vinyl does look better (obviously) but the dynamics don't look hugely better, more that there is less limiting/compression. I'd like to see that Vinyl wavform normalized to -0.1db just to see a fairer comparison between them.
Plan9
800 Club - QQ All-Star
And vinyl needledrops will always look more dynamic than a digital demux. You can't get a square waveform out of vinyl. Better would be to compare the analog output of your digital player, you'd be surprised at how more dynamic it looks than the original digital waveform.
The vinyl is a Swedish first press. I am comparing that to CD, to DVD surround mix. Wavforms are from fronts on surround mix.
The guitars on DVD are feint, very weak.
I had my first listen to both discs yesterday evening. Anybody else thinks that these slip cases suck? I had a hard time getting the discs out and especially slip them back in..
Anyway, the new 5.1 mix of Damnation is simply gorgeous and I couldn't be happier about it. The album has always been one of my favorites and this mix makes the listening experience better than ever.
Deliverance on the other hand was a big disappointment. I already expected it wouldn't be easy to transfer the almost perfect Sneap mix from the original release to 5.1. My reservations concerning the new mix proved to be true. All of the rhythm guitar tracks sound weak and are way too low in volume. Where is the wall of sound? Furthermore, the drums are lacking punch, especially the kickdrum is way too muddy and doesn't cut through the mix anymore. During the double bass passages, bass guitar and kickdrum are fighting against each other, trying to find their spot in the mix. The snare is weak and features some weird machine gun effect on some rolls, indicating some sample replacement. Sneap also blends in samples on many of his mixes, but avoids such effects in a clever way. The overall clarity of the mix is good, as is the use of the rear speakers. I don't like the toms on the rears though.
All in all, I wouldn't have bought the 5.1 mix of Deliverance if they offered the album separately. I wish Jens Bogren would have done the remix, since he knows how to mix death metal and made some significant improvement on the overall quality of his 5.1 mixes over the years. He did a much better job on Still Life, Blackwater Park and even Watershed.
Damnation: Music and Mix 10/10
Deliverance: Music 10, Mix 6
Anyway, the new 5.1 mix of Damnation is simply gorgeous and I couldn't be happier about it. The album has always been one of my favorites and this mix makes the listening experience better than ever.
Deliverance on the other hand was a big disappointment. I already expected it wouldn't be easy to transfer the almost perfect Sneap mix from the original release to 5.1. My reservations concerning the new mix proved to be true. All of the rhythm guitar tracks sound weak and are way too low in volume. Where is the wall of sound? Furthermore, the drums are lacking punch, especially the kickdrum is way too muddy and doesn't cut through the mix anymore. During the double bass passages, bass guitar and kickdrum are fighting against each other, trying to find their spot in the mix. The snare is weak and features some weird machine gun effect on some rolls, indicating some sample replacement. Sneap also blends in samples on many of his mixes, but avoids such effects in a clever way. The overall clarity of the mix is good, as is the use of the rear speakers. I don't like the toms on the rears though.
All in all, I wouldn't have bought the 5.1 mix of Deliverance if they offered the album separately. I wish Jens Bogren would have done the remix, since he knows how to mix death metal and made some significant improvement on the overall quality of his 5.1 mixes over the years. He did a much better job on Still Life, Blackwater Park and even Watershed.
Damnation: Music and Mix 10/10
Deliverance: Music 10, Mix 6
I had my first listen to both discs yesterday evening. Anybody else thinks that these slip cases suck? I had a hard time getting the discs out and especially slip them back in..
Anyway, the new 5.1 mix of Damnation is simply gorgeous and I couldn't be happier about it. The album has always been one of my favorites and this mix makes the listening experience better than ever.
Deliverance on the other hand was a big disappointment. I already expected it wouldn't be easy to transfer the almost perfect Sneap mix from the original release to 5.1. My reservations concerning the new mix proved to be true. All of the rhythm guitar tracks sound weak and are way too low in volume. Where is the wall of sound? Furthermore, the drums are lacking punch, especially the kickdrum is way too muddy and doesn't cut through the mix anymore. During the double bass passages, bass guitar and kickdrum are fighting against each other, trying to find their spot in the mix. The snare is weak and features some weird machine gun effect on some rolls, indicating some sample replacement. Sneap also blends in samples on many of his mixes, but avoids such effects in a clever way. The overall clarity of the mix is good, as is the use of the rear speakers. I don't like the toms on the rears though.
All in all, I wouldn't have bought the 5.1 mix of Deliverance if they offered the album separately. I wish Jens Bogren would have done the remix, since he knows how to mix death metal and made some significant improvement on the overall quality of his 5.1 mixes over the years. He did a much better job on Still Life, Blackwater Park and even Watershed.
Damnation: Music and Mix 10/10
Deliverance: Music 10, Mix 6
Anyway, the new 5.1 mix of Damnation is simply gorgeous and I couldn't be happier about it. The album has always been one of my favorites and this mix makes the listening experience better than ever.
Deliverance on the other hand was a big disappointment. I already expected it wouldn't be easy to transfer the almost perfect Sneap mix from the original release to 5.1. My reservations concerning the new mix proved to be true. All of the rhythm guitar tracks sound weak and are way too low in volume. Where is the wall of sound? Furthermore, the drums are lacking punch, especially the kickdrum is way too muddy and doesn't cut through the mix anymore. During the double bass passages, bass guitar and kickdrum are fighting against each other, trying to find their spot in the mix. The snare is weak and features some weird machine gun effect on some rolls, indicating some sample replacement. Sneap also blends in samples on many of his mixes, but avoids such effects in a clever way. The overall clarity of the mix is good, as is the use of the rear speakers. I don't like the toms on the rears though.
All in all, I wouldn't have bought the 5.1 mix of Deliverance if they offered the album separately. I wish Jens Bogren would have done the remix, since he knows how to mix death metal and made some significant improvement on the overall quality of his 5.1 mixes over the years. He did a much better job on Still Life, Blackwater Park and even Watershed.
Damnation: Music and Mix 10/10
Deliverance: Music 10, Mix 6
Andy Sneap uses samples pretty much all the time with drums, they never sound natural. I'm surprised you find the snare on the new mix to sound sampled as to me it sounds much more natural, even if not perfect (they had issues with the drum tracks when recording).
I could not agree more. These are my thoughts exactly.
You're right, he blends in samples on a regular basis, still he manages to avoid machine gun effects on snare rolls. In this case, the drums sound almost amateurish to me. I know that they ran into some inssues while recording, yet Sneap managed to deliver a good drum sound.
Samples suck. Modern recordings seem to have crappy sounding drums. I haven't heard a great drum sounding on a record for awhile.
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