I totally agree, Dennis.. but then Sony hardly showed SACD any real love and that was their baby too
ELP Emerson Lake & Palmer Cataloge in 5.1 Surround
- Thread starter tarkusnj
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I totally agree, Dennis.. but then Sony hardly showed SACD any real love and that was their baby too
also, on the "blu-ray" is too expensive routine, I'm not sure I buy this argument anymore.
I can accept blu-rays may be pricier & more labour-intensive to put together than a DVD but surely as the format grows and sells in greater numbers, the financial side at least will come down!?
Case in point, I saw a video game magazine on a supermarket shelf this lunchtime for £5.99 with a 'free' blu-ray full of stuff on it. This wasnt a pamphlet worth a penny with a £5.98 premium blu-ray stuck to it. This was a substantial magazine with a cover-mounted blu-ray that obviously cost money to produce.
if a games magazine can do it, seemingly for "free", how comes a major music label like Sony can't (or won't) author a 5.1 blu-ray and include it in a "Legacy Edition" release costing maybe £5 (even £10, maybe!) more for the premium and not make money!?
I realise The Official Playstation Magazine will doubtless sell more copies than an ELP reissue.. but it's economies of scale at work here and the maths just doesn't add up.
I've no idea what the sales figures for the PS3 UK Mag are but based on the PS2 UK Magazines peak sales being approx 150,000 in a month (best sales ever, 10 years ago, for a games machine with a much, much bigger user base than the PS3) if we guesstimate it all this way..
50,000 free blu-rays from a £6 magazine sale,
versus
15,000 £20 blu-rays sold in a "Legacy Edition"..
still adds upto £300,000 gross, whichever way you look at it.
maybe my projected sales for the magazine are too high (I imagine they are) and maybe my guess as to how many of these ELP Legacy sets they'd sell are off but somehow, someway, I believe that someone with the knowledge can produce sales figures that prove the viability of blu-ray music discs.
Neil Wilkes' first blu-ray production has already sold out its first 1,000 straight away and more are being produced, who knows how many copies they will shift ultimately!?
so I think there is a market and it is viable.
the balls now in Sony's court to finally show some.
I can accept blu-rays may be pricier & more labour-intensive to put together than a DVD but surely as the format grows and sells in greater numbers, the financial side at least will come down!?
Case in point, I saw a video game magazine on a supermarket shelf this lunchtime for £5.99 with a 'free' blu-ray full of stuff on it. This wasnt a pamphlet worth a penny with a £5.98 premium blu-ray stuck to it. This was a substantial magazine with a cover-mounted blu-ray that obviously cost money to produce.
if a games magazine can do it, seemingly for "free", how comes a major music label like Sony can't (or won't) author a 5.1 blu-ray and include it in a "Legacy Edition" release costing maybe £5 (even £10, maybe!) more for the premium and not make money!?
I realise The Official Playstation Magazine will doubtless sell more copies than an ELP reissue.. but it's economies of scale at work here and the maths just doesn't add up.
I've no idea what the sales figures for the PS3 UK Mag are but based on the PS2 UK Magazines peak sales being approx 150,000 in a month (best sales ever, 10 years ago, for a games machine with a much, much bigger user base than the PS3) if we guesstimate it all this way..
50,000 free blu-rays from a £6 magazine sale,
versus
15,000 £20 blu-rays sold in a "Legacy Edition"..
still adds upto £300,000 gross, whichever way you look at it.
maybe my projected sales for the magazine are too high (I imagine they are) and maybe my guess as to how many of these ELP Legacy sets they'd sell are off but somehow, someway, I believe that someone with the knowledge can produce sales figures that prove the viability of blu-ray music discs.
Neil Wilkes' first blu-ray production has already sold out its first 1,000 straight away and more are being produced, who knows how many copies they will shift ultimately!?
so I think there is a market and it is viable.
the balls now in Sony's court to finally show some.
Steven Wilson
Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2012
- Messages
- 37
Hi folks!
The first 2 ELPs will be DVD releases with DTS 5.1 and LPCM stereo. But the level of interest in high res has been noted by Sony, and I think we may now be in a position to change this for future releases.
So ELP have not stood the test of time as other bands from the era ??? I couldn't disagree with such comment more, but anyway that's not a reason to "re-conceive" Tarkus. I will not try to make a competition between ELP vs King Crimson vs Genesis vs Yes to make a point, as I love them all, but any of those can be beaten to death by whoever is not willing to understand prog aesthetics and label it "dated" (and I'm not implying that did happen in the interview). Anyway, I really find this comment very awkward. ELP has indeed passed the test of time, and by that I mean it has never been nor will be ever under dispute that ELP is one of the best prog bands ever (in terms of ambition, influence, music levels, performance levels, technology, historical importance). If nowadays music has nothing to do with ELP, well that's another discussion, but then maybe it's a good sign that ELP has nothing to do with nowadays music.
Well I did say it was just my opinion! I love ELP, sometimes acknowledging that something is a part of its time is not a criticism at all. I found that some of the music belonged more to its time than say music from the same era by Pink Floyd and King Crimson. And yes we are certainly not in dispute over ELP being one of the greatest prog rock bands ever.
And Jeremy Bender/Are you ready Eddy are "fillers"?? I'm sorry, but I just can't accept this. So why ELP played so much Jeremy Bender in public during the '70s? And why "Are you ready Eddy" have such incredible piano lines?
Well for me, yes Are you Ready Eddy really is the epitome of filler - a drunken rock n roll jam recorded by the band in order to make up enough music for the LP. On the other hand a track they worked really hard on like "Oh My Father" was left off for reasons of band politics or personal reasons, which are no longer relevant. Jeremy Bender, point taken.
What comes next? Will "Benny The Bouncer" be considered a "filler"? Maybe the Second Movement of Emerson's Concerto is also a "filler". "Tank" from Works 1 is most probably a "filler". So what? Fillers should be treated with respect, as someone who counts once decided they'd be in.
I personally don't like "C'est la vie": what if someone who shares this opinion with me, and is given power, decides it's a "filler"??
It depends - the whole idea grew out of the fact that for the first album the master tapes for Tank and two thirds of The Three Fates were missing, so with the caveat that the original album master was going to be included anyway, we came up with the idea of using some of the excellent out-takes to create a an alternative version of the album on the second CD with the new mixes. Having done this I thought it would be cool to extend the concept (with the band's approval) to Tarkus and to include the 2 excellent ballads that were left off the album in the running order of the new mixes of CD2 (again the original album master is included on CD1). It's only this second CD in the package that includes the alternate running order - Jeremy Bender and Are You Ready Eddy? are included in the correct place in the high res stereo on the DVD. Same is true of the 5.1 running order which matches the original album exactly (with Oh My Father as a bonus 5.1 mix at the end).
If we did carry the idea forward for a alternate running order to future albums, and replace one of the more (let's use this word instead of filler) "frivolous" tracks (and I accept that humour was an important part of these records, I'm not trying to wipe that out!), then one of 2 things would have to be true: either the multi tracks would have to be missing to that track, or there would have to be an out-take that was so good it merited replacing it in the alternate track listing order. Once again this would only be done on the basis that the original album master is also a part of the package.
Isn't the "Works 2" an album made of fillers?
Yes, it is - I won't be doing that one!
Is it difficult to understand the concept of respecting a band's decision 40 years ago?
What about respecting the band's decision now? This is all with their approval (in fact Greg wanted to change a lot more believe me!)
I just think things are being mixed-up here: there are musical/aesthetic decisions, and there are technical/audiophile decisions. Both are very important. But IMMO, there's an inner part of the former activity which the latter should not step into.
I guess where you draw the line on that is a personal thing. For example some would say don't even remix the material into surround sound, since it was never intended for it in the first place. Others would say leave out-takes unreleased since the band clearly didn't want them released at the time…etc.. My own line with these releases is to always ask the record company to include the original mix too, so that if there is a new mix then it simply becomes an alternate perspective. For the very first (and possibly) last time this has also extended to trying to present an alternate running order too (in one case by necessity, in another by choice). All I would ask is wait until you hear it before telling me whether you think it works or not. By the way, if you've never heard "Oh My Father" I really think it's astoundingly good, it's really the main reason why I wanted to do the alternate Tarkus thing.
One other thing worth noting is that the creation of the new stereo mixes is actually a necessary step towards creating the 5.1 mixes - when I started doing the 5.1 mixes of the Crimson catalogue it never occurred to me that the new stereo mixes would also be included. But then we began to hear that sometimes the new stereo mixes had a degree of clarity sometimes missing from the original mixes, and so starting with Lizard this became something that was always an option. I certainly don't think my ELP mixes are better than the originals (there's only a couple of times I would claim that there was a notable and clear improvement - Lizard and Aqualung, but even then it's down to taste), because the originals are fantastic - but they do sound different, and some people do seem to appreciate the alternative perspective.
Best!
SW
The first 2 ELPs will be DVD releases with DTS 5.1 and LPCM stereo. But the level of interest in high res has been noted by Sony, and I think we may now be in a position to change this for future releases.
So ELP have not stood the test of time as other bands from the era ??? I couldn't disagree with such comment more, but anyway that's not a reason to "re-conceive" Tarkus. I will not try to make a competition between ELP vs King Crimson vs Genesis vs Yes to make a point, as I love them all, but any of those can be beaten to death by whoever is not willing to understand prog aesthetics and label it "dated" (and I'm not implying that did happen in the interview). Anyway, I really find this comment very awkward. ELP has indeed passed the test of time, and by that I mean it has never been nor will be ever under dispute that ELP is one of the best prog bands ever (in terms of ambition, influence, music levels, performance levels, technology, historical importance). If nowadays music has nothing to do with ELP, well that's another discussion, but then maybe it's a good sign that ELP has nothing to do with nowadays music.
Well I did say it was just my opinion! I love ELP, sometimes acknowledging that something is a part of its time is not a criticism at all. I found that some of the music belonged more to its time than say music from the same era by Pink Floyd and King Crimson. And yes we are certainly not in dispute over ELP being one of the greatest prog rock bands ever.
And Jeremy Bender/Are you ready Eddy are "fillers"?? I'm sorry, but I just can't accept this. So why ELP played so much Jeremy Bender in public during the '70s? And why "Are you ready Eddy" have such incredible piano lines?
Well for me, yes Are you Ready Eddy really is the epitome of filler - a drunken rock n roll jam recorded by the band in order to make up enough music for the LP. On the other hand a track they worked really hard on like "Oh My Father" was left off for reasons of band politics or personal reasons, which are no longer relevant. Jeremy Bender, point taken.
What comes next? Will "Benny The Bouncer" be considered a "filler"? Maybe the Second Movement of Emerson's Concerto is also a "filler". "Tank" from Works 1 is most probably a "filler". So what? Fillers should be treated with respect, as someone who counts once decided they'd be in.
I personally don't like "C'est la vie": what if someone who shares this opinion with me, and is given power, decides it's a "filler"??
It depends - the whole idea grew out of the fact that for the first album the master tapes for Tank and two thirds of The Three Fates were missing, so with the caveat that the original album master was going to be included anyway, we came up with the idea of using some of the excellent out-takes to create a an alternative version of the album on the second CD with the new mixes. Having done this I thought it would be cool to extend the concept (with the band's approval) to Tarkus and to include the 2 excellent ballads that were left off the album in the running order of the new mixes of CD2 (again the original album master is included on CD1). It's only this second CD in the package that includes the alternate running order - Jeremy Bender and Are You Ready Eddy? are included in the correct place in the high res stereo on the DVD. Same is true of the 5.1 running order which matches the original album exactly (with Oh My Father as a bonus 5.1 mix at the end).
If we did carry the idea forward for a alternate running order to future albums, and replace one of the more (let's use this word instead of filler) "frivolous" tracks (and I accept that humour was an important part of these records, I'm not trying to wipe that out!), then one of 2 things would have to be true: either the multi tracks would have to be missing to that track, or there would have to be an out-take that was so good it merited replacing it in the alternate track listing order. Once again this would only be done on the basis that the original album master is also a part of the package.
Isn't the "Works 2" an album made of fillers?
Yes, it is - I won't be doing that one!
Is it difficult to understand the concept of respecting a band's decision 40 years ago?
What about respecting the band's decision now? This is all with their approval (in fact Greg wanted to change a lot more believe me!)
I just think things are being mixed-up here: there are musical/aesthetic decisions, and there are technical/audiophile decisions. Both are very important. But IMMO, there's an inner part of the former activity which the latter should not step into.
I guess where you draw the line on that is a personal thing. For example some would say don't even remix the material into surround sound, since it was never intended for it in the first place. Others would say leave out-takes unreleased since the band clearly didn't want them released at the time…etc.. My own line with these releases is to always ask the record company to include the original mix too, so that if there is a new mix then it simply becomes an alternate perspective. For the very first (and possibly) last time this has also extended to trying to present an alternate running order too (in one case by necessity, in another by choice). All I would ask is wait until you hear it before telling me whether you think it works or not. By the way, if you've never heard "Oh My Father" I really think it's astoundingly good, it's really the main reason why I wanted to do the alternate Tarkus thing.
One other thing worth noting is that the creation of the new stereo mixes is actually a necessary step towards creating the 5.1 mixes - when I started doing the 5.1 mixes of the Crimson catalogue it never occurred to me that the new stereo mixes would also be included. But then we began to hear that sometimes the new stereo mixes had a degree of clarity sometimes missing from the original mixes, and so starting with Lizard this became something that was always an option. I certainly don't think my ELP mixes are better than the originals (there's only a couple of times I would claim that there was a notable and clear improvement - Lizard and Aqualung, but even then it's down to taste), because the originals are fantastic - but they do sound different, and some people do seem to appreciate the alternative perspective.
Best!
SW
"One other thing worth noting is that the creation of the new stereo mixes is actually a necessary step towards creating the 5.1 mixes - when I started doing the 5.1 mixes of the Crimson catalogue it never occurred to me that the new stereo mixes would also be included. But then we began to hear that sometimes the new stereo mixes had a degree of clarity sometimes missing from the original mixes, and so starting with Lizard this became something that was always an option. I certainly don't think my ELP mixes are better than the originals (there's only a couple of times I would claim that there was a notable and clear improvement - Lizard and Aqualung, but even then it's down to taste), because the originals are fantastic - but they do sound different, and some people do seem to appreciate the alternative perspective. "
Best!
SW
Thank You so much for taking the time to express your thoughts.
You are the consumate professional.
I can't thank you enough for your efforts. You have brought these recordings to life and given them added relevence.
Please Sir, continue on. There is so much left to do.
Frantic
Best!
SW
Thank You so much for taking the time to express your thoughts.
You are the consumate professional.
I can't thank you enough for your efforts. You have brought these recordings to life and given them added relevence.
Please Sir, continue on. There is so much left to do.
Frantic
Hi folks!
The first 2 ELPs will be DVD releases with DTS 5.1 and LPCM stereo. But the level of interest in high res has been noted by Sony, and I think we may now be in a position to change this for future releases.
So ELP have not stood the test of time as other bands from the era ??? I couldn't disagree with such comment more, but anyway that's not a reason to "re-conceive" Tarkus. I will not try to make a competition between ELP vs King Crimson vs Genesis vs Yes to make a point, as I love them all, but any of those can be beaten to death by whoever is not willing to understand prog aesthetics and label it "dated" (and I'm not implying that did happen in the interview). Anyway, I really find this comment very awkward. ELP has indeed passed the test of time, and by that I mean it has never been nor will be ever under dispute that ELP is one of the best prog bands ever (in terms of ambition, influence, music levels, performance levels, technology, historical importance). If nowadays music has nothing to do with ELP, well that's another discussion, but then maybe it's a good sign that ELP has nothing to do with nowadays music.
Well I did say it was just my opinion! I love ELP, sometimes acknowledging that something is a part of its time is not a criticism at all. I found that some of the music belonged more to its time than say music from the same era by Pink Floyd and King Crimson. And yes we are certainly not in dispute over ELP being one of the greatest prog rock bands ever.
And Jeremy Bender/Are you ready Eddy are "fillers"?? I'm sorry, but I just can't accept this. So why ELP played so much Jeremy Bender in public during the '70s? And why "Are you ready Eddy" have such incredible piano lines?
Well for me, yes Are you Ready Eddy really is the epitome of filler - a drunken rock n roll jam recorded by the band in order to make up enough music for the LP. On the other hand a track they worked really hard on like "Oh My Father" was left off for reasons of band politics or personal reasons, which are no longer relevant. Jeremy Bender, point taken.
What comes next? Will "Benny The Bouncer" be considered a "filler"? Maybe the Second Movement of Emerson's Concerto is also a "filler". "Tank" from Works 1 is most probably a "filler". So what? Fillers should be treated with respect, as someone who counts once decided they'd be in.
I personally don't like "C'est la vie": what if someone who shares this opinion with me, and is given power, decides it's a "filler"??
It depends - the whole idea grew out of the fact that for the first album the master tapes for Tank and two thirds of The Three Fates were missing, so with the caveat that the original album master was going to be included anyway, we came up with the idea of using some of the excellent out-takes to create a an alternative version of the album on the second CD with the new mixes. Having done this I thought it would be cool to extend the concept (with the band's approval) to Tarkus and to include the 2 excellent ballads that were left off the album in the running order of the new mixes of CD2 (again the original album master is included on CD1). It's only this second CD in the package that includes the alternate running order - Jeremy Bender and Are You Ready Eddy? are included in the correct place in the high res stereo on the DVD. Same is true of the 5.1 running order which matches the original album exactly (with Oh My Father as a bonus 5.1 mix at the end).
If we did carry the idea forward for a alternate running order to future albums, and replace one of the more (let's use this word instead of filler) "frivolous" tracks (and I accept that humour was an important part of these records, I'm not trying to wipe that out!), then one of 2 things would have to be true: either the multi tracks would have to be missing to that track, or there would have to be an out-take that was so good it merited replacing it in the alternate track listing order. Once again this would only be done on the basis that the original album master is also a part of the package.
Isn't the "Works 2" an album made of fillers?
Yes, it is - I won't be doing that one!
Is it difficult to understand the concept of respecting a band's decision 40 years ago?
What about respecting the band's decision now? This is all with their approval (in fact Greg wanted to change a lot more believe me!)
I just think things are being mixed-up here: there are musical/aesthetic decisions, and there are technical/audiophile decisions. Both are very important. But IMMO, there's an inner part of the former activity which the latter should not step into.
I guess where you draw the line on that is a personal thing. For example some would say don't even remix the material into surround sound, since it was never intended for it in the first place. Others would say leave out-takes unreleased since the band clearly didn't want them released at the time…etc.. My own line with these releases is to always ask the record company to include the original mix too, so that if there is a new mix then it simply becomes an alternate perspective. For the very first (and possibly) last time this has also extended to trying to present an alternate running order too (in one case by necessity, in another by choice). All I would ask is wait until you hear it before telling me whether you think it works or not. By the way, if you've never heard "Oh My Father" I really think it's astoundingly good, it's really the main reason why I wanted to do the alternate Tarkus thing.
One other thing worth noting is that the creation of the new stereo mixes is actually a necessary step towards creating the 5.1 mixes - when I started doing the 5.1 mixes of the Crimson catalogue it never occurred to me that the new stereo mixes would also be included. But then we began to hear that sometimes the new stereo mixes had a degree of clarity sometimes missing from the original mixes, and so starting with Lizard this became something that was always an option. I certainly don't think my ELP mixes are better than the originals (there's only a couple of times I would claim that there was a notable and clear improvement - Lizard and Aqualung, but even then it's down to taste), because the originals are fantastic - but they do sound different, and some people do seem to appreciate the alternative perspective.
Best!
SW
Thanks a lot for the update, Steven!
I sincerely hope this means that we can have a 5.1 mix of Trilogy with High-Res audio very soon!
As you can see from this site, there really is an interest among the community for high-res audio for what we are sure will be outstanding mixes from you!
kap'n krunch
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Very nice of Steven to drop by...but he didn't answer the main question...is it gonna be 96/24???
Maybe he doesn't even know-hey, he mixes the stuff and that's it...
I'm not holding my breath, though....
Maybe he doesn't even know-hey, he mixes the stuff and that's it...
I'm not holding my breath, though....
Also, amazon.com (US) now has a release date of August 7, 2012 for these reissues...
Me neither, Kap'n. In the absence of any 24/96-ing going on in Steven Wilsons' post.. I'm guessing its just the core DTS stream.
At least our efforts were seemingly not entirely in vain and Hi-Res interest has been duly noted.. Quite what Sony decide to do in the future, now they know how a hardcore nucleus feel about these being lossy DVDV's, is another matter altogether.
Pockets17red
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2011
- Messages
- 91
So they updated the release date finally. I'm hoping that the DTS will be 96/24.
aquadad
400 Club - QQ All-Star
Hello,
If Sony / Razor & Tie are the collaborators on this and they do as good a job as was done on the Sonia Dada release of "Test Pattern" , another Razor & Tie production, then I for one will be quite pleased. The Sonia Dada title is one of my favorites in any format.
Sure is refreshing to read what Mr. Wilson has to say. He is obviously someone who is very passionate about his craft which bodes well for the future of surround sound if there is to be one...
If Sony / Razor & Tie are the collaborators on this and they do as good a job as was done on the Sonia Dada release of "Test Pattern" , another Razor & Tie production, then I for one will be quite pleased. The Sonia Dada title is one of my favorites in any format.
Sure is refreshing to read what Mr. Wilson has to say. He is obviously someone who is very passionate about his craft which bodes well for the future of surround sound if there is to be one...
Ge Someone
1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Hello mr. Wilson,
it's not as if you owe us an explanation, but thanks for sticking your head out anyway.
As of DTS, personally I do not have a big problem with that (for a recording of that time), Dolby Digital however disappoints in the case of music releases.
With anything new, be it mix, running order, extra tracks, there will be opinions against it. I myself think it is the justification for releasing another version of those albums. Thanks for making the surround versions happen.
it's not as if you owe us an explanation, but thanks for sticking your head out anyway.
As of DTS, personally I do not have a big problem with that (for a recording of that time), Dolby Digital however disappoints in the case of music releases.
With anything new, be it mix, running order, extra tracks, there will be opinions against it. I myself think it is the justification for releasing another version of those albums. Thanks for making the surround versions happen.
Thanks, I should have clarified NOT as overpriced imports but as domestic Razor & Tie releases. So I guess that's a no.
Thank you Steven for your efforts on our behalf.
These bands (ELP & Crimson) inspired me to take up instruments, so their legacy albums are very important to me. The fact that these will be heard in surround soon is very exciting, a dream come true in fact.
These bands (ELP & Crimson) inspired me to take up instruments, so their legacy albums are very important to me. The fact that these will be heard in surround soon is very exciting, a dream come true in fact.
I was curious about a US release of the ELP titles so I called Razor & Tie direct. Here is the response I received:
Here are some comments from Greg Lake about the reissues:
Pockets17red
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2011
- Messages
- 91
T-shirt bundle with each of the albums? I am so there! :banana:
(I need some non-black band shirts anyways.)
(I need some non-black band shirts anyways.)
Odys
701 Club - QQ All-Star
I had a Tarkus t-shirt when I was in high school, but I can't see myself wearing one now, even though I'm still a t-shirt kind of guy. The albums have been pre-ordered though.
Are Your Ready, Eddy? and Jeremy Bender and Benny the Bouncer...these are all fillers (which isn't to say they're necessarily bad). Keep going, Mr. Wilson, you are doing it right.
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