First Hybrid DVD-A/V Project

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1 - your Video_TS will be out of spec, as you are using the Abstraction Layer - those bit bridges are not allowed as they are controlled from within the Abstraction Layer of DLP.
2 - Any player that confuses the DTS stream for an LPCM one is in trouble, and either
A - has a firmware problem, or
B - cannot cope with DTS properly.
Either way, it always works here - it just has to be authored properly. All our commercial (and otherwise) DVDA use LPCM/DTS in the same timeline/title, and it works.
I'm actually surprised you do not get warnings when importing these VTS titles into Chrome in the first place - it should tell you that you are out of spec.
3 - Chrome cannot pick the streams. If you use 2 streams, Chrome cannot be set to select stream #2 - it's a limitation (sadly only one of a few nasty "gotchas" in Chrome) of a poor abstraction layer tool. For the money it cost, Chrome was overpriced given it's feature set - this is why we stopped using it & I would sell my license if I could as it is useless to us.

Accessing the second title in DLP's project really should not be hard. Again, I have stopped using Chrome because of the problems.

well, without bridges there is no way to link VTS2 to menu.
i'm mainly use OPPO, sometimes LG. both won't decode second stream if both streams in one VTS.
friends with different players (Yamaha, Pioneer, Onkio, Denon) have same issue.
software player MPClassic shows similar behaviour.

as i understand you're useing the stream @ 48KHz. could be i have problem because of 96/24?

yes, discWelder does give warning about out of spec but does make disc image and so far i didn't have
any problems with playback or navigation. from main menu i do have access to all streams in AUDIO_TS
and VIDEO_TS directories. none of those who use my releases did complained in regards of workability
of discs.
b.t.w. i'm useing v.2.0.25. with version 2.0.6 i did have issues upon authoring and compiling the hybrid DVDA.
 
yes, discWelder does give warning about out of spec but does make disc image and so far i didn't have
any problems with playback or navigation. from main menu i do have access to all streams in AUDIO_TS
and VIDEO_TS directories. none of those who use my releases did complained in regards of workability
of discs.
b.t.w. i'm useing v.2.0.25. with version 2.0.6 i did have issues upon authoring and compiling the hybrid DVDA.


I found the same, although 'chrome' gives the warning, i've never heard of anyone having any problems, and i would have thought there would have been considering the number of releases/downloads

OD
 
I did this but hit a brick wall when using the option to create a 'Change Audio' page. The buttons failed to work, once selected they went nowhere. Any ideas?


What did you do, exactly?
Audio Setup page code would usually go something like this (assuming LPCM on stream 1 & DTS on stream 2, with a link to the playlist. Main Menu is VTS Root, Audio Setup is second menu & playlist is third menu):::
LPCM Stereo.
SetSTN (audio = 0), LinkPGCN 3
DTS
SetSTN (audio = 1), LinkPGCN 3
This should set the stream, and jump to the playlist.
 
well, without bridges there is no way to link VTS2 to menu.
i'm mainly use OPPO, sometimes LG. both won't decode second stream if both streams in one VTS.
friends with different players (Yamaha, Pioneer, Onkio, Denon) have same issue.
software player MPClassic shows similar behaviour.

as i understand you're useing the stream @ 48KHz. could be i have problem because of 96/24?

yes, discWelder does give warning about out of spec but does make disc image and so far i didn't have
any problems with playback or navigation. from main menu i do have access to all streams in AUDIO_TS
and VIDEO_TS directories. none of those who use my releases did complained in regards of workability
of discs.
b.t.w. i'm useing v.2.0.25. with version 2.0.6 i did have issues upon authoring and compiling the hybrid DVDA.

Hey Otto.
The way to jump across VTS titles is not to use a Bit Bridge, but to use a VMGM menu instead.
See code examples above.
If you cannot get stream 2 to play then there is a problem in the abstraction layer that is making this happen - I author all Video_TS with DLP, using VM commands, and never yet have I had an issue with the DTS stream not decoding (I test on Oppo BDP-83, BDP-83SE, BDP-80, Denon 2910/3910 here) and have a test team with a lot of different players between them. It works when done properly, without the AL getting in the way - this is my point.
Software players are crap, most of them do not understand all VM commands (I cannot use LinkTailPGC for one as WinDVD will never run this command) and their use is at best flaky.

96kHz makes little difference but it can cause truncation/resampling problems - plus you may also hit the written disc problem of exceeding 7,000kbps - there are a lot of players that will not play a disc that exceeds this limit.

Out of Spec.
All I can say is that this is a bad idea. There is furthermore no need to do this as it can be done properly, and should be done properly.
Would you go from 24-bits to 16-bits without dithering? Would you output a 4:3 video as 16:9, making everyone look like Danny DeVito?
Compiling an out of spec image is just not good practise for many reasons - player compatibility is a part of the story but not the whole story.
 
What did you do, exactly?
Audio Setup page code would usually go something like this (assuming LPCM on stream 1 & DTS on stream 2, with a link to the playlist. Main Menu is VTS Root, Audio Setup is second menu & playlist is third menu):::
LPCM Stereo.
SetSTN (audio = 0), LinkPGCN 3
DTS
SetSTN (audio = 1), LinkPGCN 3
This should set the stream, and jump to the playlist.

The computers busy uploading AOQ's latest, but i used a preset option in the program to create an Audio Selection menu. I'll give it another try with those links.

Thanks

OD
 
I give up.

It was a statement made after over 100 releases. Sorry for stating what i found, but the truth is the truth.

I do not produce commercial discs, and am in no way even looking to do so. I'm just trying to provide a service to fellow Quadraphiles in a Quad free world. What i produce is only aimed (as previously ststed) to those with the correct equipment, which if they are into Surround, they'll have.

As there isn't a proper 'how to do it' manual, i learnt the best way i could with these programs, and the disc's i produce work, without a single issue.

For proffesional and expensive programs, both are total c**p, and should never have been released as they are. That's probably one reason they have been abandoned by their developers.

So, give people a break, if you know all there is to know, could you produce a "How to do it" guide?

OD
 
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Well, Neil has been very gracious with his time and heavy work load and has offered to create a Template or Templates for us. I could create a manual once I create a few discs.

What we need is a Template and/or a set of instructions for the steps for coding 2 different type of discs:

1. One would be for a proper "in spec" Dolby/DTS disc.

2. The other would be for the same thing, Dolby/DTS disc, but with a LPCM Stereo track also included.

But let us not get too far ahead here if need be, and just concentrate on a "in spec" Dolby/DTS disc. The reason we need to learn this and create a manual is a plan to mix new bands or one's own material into Multi-Channel. But there's more to this:

I have found in discussions with many musician friends, in fact Friday just saw a friends music group and talked with the person who who records them about how a "regular" DVD-V could be made so that they could hear themselves, how they recorded to begin with, but to perhaps also sell the disc at some point if it's "in spec." That's why the need here, because we're talking about replicating perhaps 500 or 1000 discs at a manufacturing plant or one disc at a time at home perhaps.

This is also needed for "The Multi-Channel Musicians Studio" which has been created, but much more needs to be done. The idea here is create another front in getting Multi-Channel out there, with small business plans for the average Joe, because there are a TON of bands out there with Multi-Tracks on hard drives just waiting to be mixed. I know there is much interest in this from musicians who mix, but the not knowing how to do the "in spec" DVD-V side is what's holding us back for now.

Of course those wishing to create one's Quad or other conversions "in spec" will benefit as well.
 
Originally Posted by Old Quad Guy
How do we turn off the abstraction layer when compiling the disc?
Originally Posted by Neb-Maat-Re
And what happens if we don't?

Read post #11 of this Thread. Also from post #8, read about "Problem #3" :

Originally Posted by neil wilkes
Hey Guys.

Problem #1 here - NEVER put the DTS as Audio #1 - it's out of spec. The reason is that track #1 for audio cannot be an optional stream type as many players cannot output it.
Stream #1 must be either Dullby or LPCM.

Problem #2 here is that there is a very nasty bug in DLP with Audio-Only titles, and that is obvious when using segued tracks, as the cells are set to non seamless by default.
Even if you are using a single contiguous stream this will happen.
The effect is that the player will empty it's buffers at the track point, causing a glitch. Doesn't happen on all players but a good number of them will be affected.
We found this bug during ITCOTCK production......and there is a fix too.
Launch PGCEdit (donationware) and double click each TT item in each VTS, and set the cells to seamless, save & then write the disc.

Problem #3 is that you must turn OFF the abstraction layer when compiling the disc, or else you will again be out of spec on importing into the DVDA application.
This means you must write all your button links & FIRST PLAY options manually with the "Custom VM" command.


OK, I'm not using menus at all. Perhaps that's why I haven't encountered any issues.
 
hey Neal, i cannot have objection to what you said. after all you're the one who's doing it for living.
i'm just happy that so far my amateurish stuff does the work.
in fact i do have Sonic Scenarist and Sonic DVD Audio Creator but both are so much users unfriendly
that i just gave up on them. anyway it's my hobby but not the means for earning. but obviously would
be very thankful for any assistance in enriching and improving of my knowledge and skill.
actually i have discs authored by you, just never played VIDEO_TS directories on them. should check out.
"Danny DeVito" in DVDA it's really funny remark. generaly no problems with images in DVDLab. but discWelder
quite obviously will do him to looks like he at least for couple years kept tough diet with extensive exercises
in sport field. doesn't metter it's 4:3 or 16:9 :)
 
What we need is a Template and/or a set of instructions for the steps for coding 2 different type of discs:

1. One would be for a proper "in spec" Dolby/DTS disc.

2. The other would be for the same thing, Dolby/DTS disc, but with a LPCM Stereo track also included.

Both those types can be in-spec......
 
Problem #2 here is that there is a very nasty bug in DLP with Audio-Only titles, and that is obvious when using segued tracks, as the cells are set to non seamless by default.
Even if you are using a single contiguous stream this will happen.
The effect is that the player will empty it's buffers at the track point, causing a glitch. Doesn't happen on all players but a good number of them will be affected.
We found this bug during ITCOTCK production......and there is a fix too.
Launch PGCEdit (donationware) and double click each TT item in each VTS, and set the cells to seamless, save & then write the disc.

Thanks for all your time trying to educate we amateurs - but especially thanks for this tip!

I love it when software works, works intuitively and works well. When I click on the TT item of my projects, the boxes that need to be ticked are all highlighted in yellow. Brilliant. At least one part of my gapless projects have been successful.
 
There has got to be an easier way. I'm usually fairly astute at understanding things like this but I'm completely lost at the moment.
 
I've not read this thread. Neil is an expert at these things, but his comments usually go right over my head, which makes me speculate that if he were to ever analyze my discs he'd probably find them to be out of spec. But, they work. On most players. They don't work on my samsung, but then again, many commercial discs don't work on the samsung either, it's good for a boat anchor.

Anyways, the basic steps for me are:

1. record audio to 4 channel wav file in sound forge. Back up that file.

2. split the file to 4 mono files. Apply noise reduction to these files. This is also done in sound forge.

3. Declicking and EQing in audition. Declicking is done by bouncing, since I setup multiple passes using Cai's method. When bouncing, the bounced file is usually a few samples longer than the original, so I trim that excess off to make sure my 4 files stay the same length. I have had issues in the past where I end up with 4 mono files that aren't the same length, which alarms me, so to make sure I don't end up with things going out of sync, I zoom in to the original and bounced in audition, highlight the excess at the end, go to edit form, and delete. EQing is applied directly to the file, not via bounce, so this isn't an issue for EQing. Also, the bounce will likely convert your 24 bit file to 32 bit. I'm not sure why, but Audition seems to dislike the 24 bit standard, and loves to force 32 right down your throat. So, you'll need to bit depth convert back to 24 when back in sound forge.

4. Trim and fades. At this point, I now have 4 mono files that are ready to go, how I want them to sound in my conversion. I do trimming and fades in sound forge by merging the 4 monos back into a 4 channel wav, so everything is in sync, and once done with edits (fade in, cut side or track change, rearrange order for Q8s that are not in correct album order, fade out), I copy and paste them back out to mono files. Also, this is the part of the process where I apply pitch shifting if needed. It's a tricky thing to go into just now, but if you attempt this, make sure you use pitch shift, and not time compress. Two completely different things.

5. Ok, now you have your files. Now it's time to get them prepped for the media. This requires encoding to mlp, encoding to dts, and encoding to dolby digital (dolby digital requires resampling to 48kHz). Your audio is now ready for your discs. I'm not sure if you already sought out all the software you need to create your discs, or if your just starting from nowhere and have nothing. So let me know if you have questions on this process. Or any of these really, this is just a vague guide to kinda pull everything together, so as you look into each individual part, you understand the whole that they are part of.

6. Art. You'll at least need something to put up on the screen. I usually create a slide with the album cover, with text of the track name, so I have one slide for each song. Make sure to keep overscanning of the tv screen in mind, you can find guides for title safe and action safe with a quick google search. I usually create a 640 by 480 file, paste a title safe layer to it, create my slide, and delete the title safe slide, type in the text for each song, save each song, until I have all slides. Oh, before each save, you'll need to resize to 720 by 480. Yes, in photoshop this will stretch it to look wide, but don't worry, the dvd format is 4:3, and uses a resolution of 720 by 480, so it'll look fine when you use it. Also, I create a menu slide, by having the album cover on the left side, and blank on the right for space for your track listing, also saving as 720 by 480. I save as .bmp files. The custom menu for chrome is complicated, I recommend starting with the generated menus for your dvd-a portion until you get this stuff down, you have enough to worry about already.

7. Make an mpg for your dvd-v. I use Vegas. I used to use Magix Move Edit Pro. I'm not sure if you can do this in magix, but the main reason I've stuck with vegas is because I need to get timings in both drop and non drop frame. I create a project with 1 video track and 4 audio tracks. I lay out the 48 kHz files as a guide. I put in the first slide starting at the beginning, find the beginning of the second song to the closest second for simplicity in drop frame timing. This will be the timing for Chrome. If you have something that doesn't work to an even second, you can go to a half second by ending it with ;15 instead of ;00. Chrome uses decimals, so you'll make that ;15 a .5. Anyways, I open a text document to keep track of these track timings. After I set a chapter, I then set the mode to non-drop frame, and note that time. Don't worry about rounding or finding an even second, just jot it down exact. At the end, you'll have your slide show laid out, delete the sound files, and render to mpg. You'll also have a .txt document with 2 timing lists, one in drop, one in non drop. Save that. Then, delete the drop list, and save a text document that has all the non-drop timings. You can import this directly into your dvd-v project when we get to that step.

8. Ok, now you have your materials, now to author that disc. First, make a dvd-v. You can use dvd lab pro 2, and import in your dts wav file, your dolby digital ac3 file, and your mpg. dvd lab probably won't like your mpg, and will automatically split it to an audio portion and video portion, for your convenience. Don't worry about that audio portion. Use the video portion, and your 2 audio tracks, in the movie. To be in spec, put ac3 in the 1st audio, dts in the 2nd. The other way around will work just fine, and wouldn't cause a problem....but rules are rules. I make some attempt to stay in spec. Import in the chapters from the text, layout your menus (2 menus, one for audio selection using the option to select audio and go to next menu, 2nd a track menu), and then you're ready to compile the project. You'll now have a ts_video and ts_audio folder. Don't worry about the audio folder, it's empty, it may as well not exist, delete it if you wish. Make sure you know where that ts_video folder is. This is all vague, I recommend finding a guide on using dvd lab pro 2, this listing is more about pulling all the steps together, to understand how all these things go together.

9. Chrome. Bring in the .mlp file, lay out your tracks, set the slide on each track using the .bmp slides you created, generate a menu, and import the video_ts. From here you can burn a disc, or create an image. Although it wants you to create a .dim file as an image, this is just their own name for .iso. You can rename the image to .iso after done, or you can just type in .iso as your file name when saving, and even though .iso isn't an option as a file type to save as from the drop down, typing it in at the end of your file name will make it save it with that name, it won't add the dim. And if it does anyways, like I said, just rename it to be an .iso. Once again, this is vague, I recommend finding a chrome guide.



Ok, so that's your vague guide on how to do this, start to end, with lots of details missing. But hopefully this gives you a starting point to understanding what the process is you'll be doing, what software you need to track down, and what questions you have for what steps. So go ahead and absorb that, do some research, find some software, and come back with questions, and before you know it you'll be enjoying your first conversion.

Also, I didn't start with this process, I really did come to it through many other processes. I started, as many did, with simple dts CDs. And then I was making dvd-a only discs with that other software, I forget what that was. Not that I ever really used any of those, because that was before I had a dvd-a player. So, maybe if you want to play around with dts cds, or other softwares first, to get down other processes, that could work. One way or another you'll find your own way to your process that works for you, and I'm sure many of us can help you along the way. I know many helped me along the way, I forget where and what I read, but I didn't find these things on my own, and through various tips and guides here, I got to the point I'm at now. I have to say that there were 2 people that were instrumental in my process, Cai for the audio end of things, and Bob Romano for the authoring end of things.
 
Yikes. Guess I have a LOT to learn still. Thanks for the info. This is going to make my compilation albums a little harder.
 
GREAT THREAD!
Gonna go back to converting a few SQs!!!
Dunno if I can do a hybrid...just go for LPCM DVD-As
 
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