Genesis "Selling England" - DVD Versus Blu-Ray

[Titch]

The blu-ray sounds less compressed - it may be just my imagination, but there seems to be far more punch in the bass, compared to the SACD. Maybe just how my Denon processes DSD, compared to LCPM audio. I noticed this also with the SACD of Rumours, compared to the DVD-A.

 

[edisonbaggins]

I happen to have a copy of that on Blu-ray Audio. I really like it, but I don't know how it compares to the SACD version of it.

Should be about the same.

 

[ssully]

The blu-ray sounds less compressed - it may be just my imagination, but there seems to be far more punch in the bass, compared to the SACD. Maybe just how my Denon processes DSD, compared to LCPM audio. I noticed this also with the SACD of Rumours, compared to the DVD-A.

Compression is what gives more punch in bass. I doubt the two are inherently different, compression-wise, but a comparison of rip waveforms would immediately tell yes or no on that. (I assume you are talking about the multichannel mixes, not the stereo). It is conceivable that a system could do LFE channel levels differently on SACD vs DVDA (though it shouldn't).

 

[JediJoker]

It is conceivable that a system could do LFE channel levels differently on SACD vs DVDA (though it shouldn't).

Many do. SACD has a compulsory level shift in the LFE, and many players do not account for this.

 

[ssully]

Many do. SACD has a compulsory level shift in the LFE, and many players do not account for this.

Something I've considered before...

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/the-lfe-bug.7683/post-421369

 

[thebarnman]

Seriously? If the signal on SACD is digital (it is) then why in the world would there be any level shift on the released disc?

 

[Neil Hannah]

I happen to have a copy of that on Blu-ray Audio. I really like it, but I don't know how it compares to the SACD version of it.

I have the blu ray audio, also. I've listened to this album for 50 years in various mediums on various systems, lp, cassette, 8 track cartridge, cd, dvd, sacd and now blu ray. I've never heard the noodling guitar on dancing with the moonlit Knight from the right hand rear channel before. Plus I'm listening on a Samsung soundbar. The blu ray is amazing

 

[ssully]

Seriously? If the signal on SACD is digital (it is) then why in the world would there be any level shift on the released disc?

Yes, seriously, proper output leveling of DSD vs PCM playback is a minefield. Please read and absorb this explanation, nicely laid out by Archimago.

Start from this sentence:

While we've talked over the years about DSD noise and how that might limit audio fidelity, we have not addressed another issue specifically which is the peak level in a DSD stream. The formal specifications for SACD/DSD64 are the "Scarlet Book" specs which we can examine on Internet Archive. If we look at the file "SACDspecP2audio_200 contents.pdf", in Annex D we can see how Sony/Philips specified SACD/DSD64 peak levels:

read what's after that , paying special attention to

This is why when DSD is converted to PCM, often we're given the option to apply +6dB gain to correct for the recommended offset (as explained by Roon for example). However, because the output can reach up to -2.9dBFS, it's probably good to go with something like +2.5dB just to make sure one doesn't clip the PCM output assuming the DSD audio was encoded as per these specs.

Notice the assumption about encoding per specs. Also do read the nice summary on the Roon site (including the warning about unfiltered DSD playback!)

And this DSD vs PCM level issue is actually separate from, and in addition to, the possibility of incorrect LFE output from an SACD. The LFE problem arises because the technology is supposed to boost PCM LFE output by +10dB, because the LFE is supposed to be 'printed' on the disc with a -10dB offset ("10dB low").
But it is supposed to leave DSD LFE output alone, because DSD LFE is supposed to be printed with no offset (Scarlet Book Spec).

If all those 'supposed to's are in place, it means that if there's a DSD-->PCM conversion step, the technology is still, in the end, supposed to to not boost the original LFE by 10dB.
But if any of the 'supposed to's are missing, either due to the technology or to the mastering, all bets are off.

 

[ssully]

I have the blu ray audio, also. I've listened to this album for 50 years in various mediums on various systems, lp, cassette, 8 track cartridge, cd, dvd, sacd and now blu ray. I've never heard the noodling guitar on dancing with the moonlit Knight from the right hand rear channel before. Plus I'm listening on a Samsung soundbar. The blu ray is amazing

Since hearing it on the BluRay version have you gone back and listened for it in the DVD and SACD versions?

 

[Neil Hannah]

Since hearing it on the BluRay version have you gone back and listened for it in the DVD and SACD versions?

Must admit, no, not yet. I have the dvda, plus a homemade version by GART on dvd. I will be sliding it in me system tonight, on both, with a nice drop of cider. Also gonna give my new hackett, spectral mornings : s. Wilson dvd a spin

 

[thebarnman]

Since hearing it on the BluRay version have you gone back and listened for it in the DVD and SACD versions?

I only have the Blu-ray version.

 

[thebarnman]

Yes, seriously, proper output leveling of DSD vs PCM playback is a minefield. Please read and absorb this explanation, nicely laid out by Archimago.

Start from this sentence:



read what's after that , paying special attention to


Notice the assumption about encoding per specs. Also do read the nice summary on the Roon site (including the warning about unfiltered DSD playback!)

And this DSD vs PCM level issue is actually separate from, and in addition to, the possibility of incorrect LFE output from an SACD. The LFE problem arises because the technology is supposed to boost PCM LFE output by +10dB, because the LFE is supposed to be 'printed' on the disc with a -10dB offset ("10dB low").
But it is supposed to leave DSD LFE output alone, because DSD LFE is supposed to be printed with no offset (Scarlet Book Spec).

If all those 'supposed to's are in place, it means that if there's a DSD-->PCM conversion step, the technology is still, in the end, supposed to to not boost the original LFE by 10dB.
But if any of the 'supposed to's are missing, either due to the technology or to the mastering, all bets are off.

Damn, that's just too much. What ever happened to simply putting on the platter and spinning it? Records do it, CDs do it, DVD-Audios do it, Blu-ray Audios do it. It's not like there's more room taken up with any level adjustment dickering on a SACD.

 

[ssully]

Must admit, no, not yet. I have the dvda, plus a homemade version by GART on dvd. I will be sliding it in me system tonight, on both, with a nice drop of cider. Also gonna give my new hackett, spectral mornings : s. Wilson dvd a spin

I wasn't aware there is a DVDA version, though I've seen DualDisc versions for sale. The original boxed set surround mixes were all DVD-V with DTS 96/24 audio.

 

[JediJoker]

I wasn't aware there is a DVDA version...

"DVD a spin," not, "DVD-A spin."

All of this discussion needs to be moved out of this poll thread.

 

[Neil Hannah]

I wasn't aware there is a DVDA version, though I've seen DualDisc versions for sale. The original boxed set surround mixes were all DVD-V with DTS 96/24 audio.

Sorry, sully, I meant dvd. I tend to use generic terms. I'm only just getting used to my wax cylinder player

 

[Neil Hannah]

I wasn't aware there is a DVDA version, though I've seen DualDisc versions for sale. The original boxed set surround mixes were all DVD-V with DTS 96/24 audio.

I listened tonight, can't hear the noodling on either of my other 2 copies

 

[ssully]

"DVD a spin," not, "DVD-A spin."

Mr. Hannah wrote "Must admit, no, not yet. I have the dvda, plus a homemade version by GART on dvd." That's what I replied to.

All of this discussion needs to be moved out of this poll thread.

All I see recently is posts related to how/why the sound of Genesis SEbtB BDA playback might or might not differ from other versions. If they're removed to somewhere else, would they make sense out of context?

 

[Nick Loebner]

I've never heard the noodling guitar on dancing with the moonlit Knight from the right hand rear channel before.

At what point?

 

[Neil Hannah]

At what point?

Around a minute from the end of track,

 

[ssully]

I'm listening to the right surround channel of the DTS version. The track is 8min 4 sec long. I started listening from 6min 30 sec, which is in the ethereal coda section of the track. Under the constant plinky 12 string(?) guitar melody line and occasional keyboard swells, there's first some tick tock cuckoo clock-y like sounds , then at 7:03 a seesawing synth part with delay on it, then at 7:15 some flute and right after that Hackett does some single note swells for the next 20 sec or so, and finally at 7:43 Hackett starts to play 'noodly' figures' also with delay on them, and it fades out. There's something more than that on the BluRay?