Q & A with Elliot Scheiner

[JonUrban]

Not sure how we got bogged down in this subject, but the current ELS system has 4 front left and 4 front right speakers, so the audio can get out from around a body sitting in the seat.

Here's a picture from my ELS thread showing 3 of the front right speakers, the other is in the ceiling.

You cannot judge what is heard by what's written in a forum post by anyone, including me. You have to listen for yourself. Take my word for it - for me, the front seats do not favor one channel or the other. It's designed to be heard in the car environment. It's not like taking 2 Jensen 6X9's and cutting them into the doors!

 

[Clint Eastwood]

My 2004 Acura TL front speakers are in the front doors; must've been model dependent like an RL sedan perhaps.

It's never going to be perfect but is quite enjoyable with a minor adjustment or two, honestly not a concern. The Pioneer DVD-A players (AVH-P7600 & AVH-P7800 in different vehicles) have far more elaborate listener position modes that use DSP to optimize Driver, Front, All & Rear modes.

Ya know...talking about the adjustability of the sound...gives me flashbacks from "back in the day"...the mighty graphic equalizers and those classic 6X9
speakers

 

[Jim the Oldbie]

Yowsah! In the dark ages before DSP, I modified one of my car EQs with a chopped-off section of plug-in prototyping board so I could swap capacitors in & out of the circuits, "tuning" the center frequencies & bandwidth exactly to the problem areas. It was geek heaven (and it sounded pretty damn good too)!

 

[sjcorne]

Curious in those cars with surround, do they provide a front to rear balance control also?

Yep. There's also center and subwoofer volume sliders, if you scroll down further.

 

[JonUrban]

Curious in those cars with surround, do they provide a front to rear balance control also?

In the newer ELS system, you can move the "sweet spot", and adjust the volume levels of the ceiling speakers and center speaker:

 

[J. PUPSTER]

In the newer ELS system, you can move the "sweet spot", and adjust the volume levels of the ceiling speakers and center speaker:

View attachment 64964

Sweet!

 

[jaybird100]

I don't know how pertinent this is, since it predates Scheiner's mixes, but I had surround sound in the early 90's, in a Honda Civic hatchback, that was nothing short of amazing. Using a Soundstream 308 head unit, Precision Power 4 channel amp, Fosgate "Gavotte 2" 360 degree "Space Matrix" processor (which conformed to RM standards), and JL Audio speakers, this system kicked proverbial booty with both stereo and QS material that I had dubbed onto cassettes. After the system was installed, I did the balancing myself. The head unit's 4 channel preamp outputs allowed me to use the fader control to adjust front-rear balance, and I set the left-right balance for both front and rear to image in the center. The small size of the car just seemed to sonically expand beyond the confines of a compact vehicle, It was truly a religious experience; people listening to it usually prefixed their responses with "holy"!

 

[Infomas]

For a single driver. When there's any passengers I can't imagine surround working well for them.

I remember when I got my first Acrua back in 2010, I drove my music geek friend in it, and played some Porcupine Tree. But she was in the backseat and she said that all she heard were the effects coming from the rears. The sound system in the Acura sedans is made for the front seats only... which is fine with me.

 

[Infomas]

Doesn’t the passenger’s side block some speakers with their legs also? And I only have a stereo rig in my car and it has side to side balance, seems like I adjust to center works fine for me. Curious in those cars with surround, do they provide a front to rear balance control also?
Seems someone needs to start a new thread for auto sound like Past, present and future of Auto Sound Systems. I’d do it, but I’m a total noob on the auto sound stuff.
* edit... See, there’s a whole Forum on Mobile Audio (duh!)
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/car-audio-moving-forward-a-reflection.25092/

The 2015 TLX has both side to side and front to back balance control.

 

[Infomas]

At times he sounds like the old codger who poo poos anything new, when it came to Atmos. But maybe he just hasn't heard anything that really excites him in Atmos yet. At some point you start having diminishing returns, right?

 

[4-earredwonder]

At times he sounds like the old codger who poo poos anything new, when it came to Atmos. But maybe he just hasn't heard anything that really excites him in Atmos yet. At some point you start having diminishing returns, right?

On the contrary, Scheiner is hardly out of touch. In an early interview when hardware manufacturers started releasing 9 & 11 channel receivers, he blunty stated that 5.1 was MORE than adequate for conveying multichannel. And from the probably over 200 former QUAD LPs released by Dutton Vocalion as QUAD SACDs [that's 4.0] does anyone really miss the center channel? Certainly NOT me. And if you listen to a lot of Scheiner's 5.1 remixes....the center channel is almost silent. And truthfully, a LOT of supergroups like Rush, Led Zep, the Beatles, The Doors, et alia only contain 3 to 4 band members and trying to extend those master tapes to 9, 11 or even ATMOS channels is a stretch. Sure anything can be done but will it sound RIGHT.

Scheiner is no fly by night ..... he has been recording and mixing for years. As he said, movies are a GREAT venue for ATMOS but IMO, if an album is conceived for ATMOS from the ground up ..... then the possibilities are FAR more conducive for that format.

And in setting up an ATMOS system most newbies opt for in ceiling speakers which are extremely practical but can not be imaged properly once they're installed and if their properties don't match your front and rear speakers ...... the audio will NOT be SEAMLESS. And as ATMOS remixes become more savvy and those in ceiling speakers become MORE prominent......you will be aghast that they fail to properly integrate with your FRONTS & REARS!

Just adding more speakers to your system without matching their properties ACROSS THE BOARD is hardly honoring those re~mixing engineers who purposely ensure their speakers/amps/cables, etc. are perfect matches for their respective mixes!

 

[Infomas]

On the contrary, Scheiner is hardly out of touch. In an early interview when hardware manufacturers started releasing 9 & 11 channel receivers, he blunty stated that 5.1 was MORE than adequate for conveying multichannel. And from the probably over 200 former QUAD LPs released by Dutton Vocalion as QUAD SACDs [that's 4.0] does anyone really miss the center channel? Certainly NOT me. And if you listen to a lot of Scheiner's 5.1 remixes....the center channel is almost silent. And truthfully, a LOT of supergroups like Rush, Led Zep, the Beatles, The Doors, et alia only contain 3 to 4 band members and trying to extend those master tapes to 9, 11 or even ATMOS channels is a stretch. Sure anything can be done but will it sound RIGHT.

Scheiner is no fly by night ..... he has been recording and mixing for years. As he said, movies are a GREAT venue for ATMOS but IMO, if an album is conceived for ATMOS from the ground up ..... then the possibilities are FAR more conducive for that format.

And in setting up an ATMOS system most newbies opt for in ceiling speakers which are extremely practical but can not be imaged properly once they're installed and if their properties don't match your front and rear speakers ...... the audio will NOT be SEAMLESS.

Just adding more speakers to your system without matching their properties ACROSS THE BOARD is hardly honoring those re~mixing engineers who purposely ensure their speakers/amps/cables, etc. are perfect matches for their respective mixes!

Oh, I'm not arguing with you. If you didn't know his history, he came off a bit that way. And he may be right. On the other hand, with a band like Tangerine Dream that creates a virtual soundscape, maybe there is room for improvement with an object based system. I don't know. I haven't heard it yet either.

 

[4-earredwonder]

Oh, I'm not arguing with you. If you didn't know his history, he came off a bit that way. And he may be right. On the other hand, with a band like Tangerine Dream that creates a virtual soundscape, maybe there is room for improvement with an object based system. I don't know. I haven't heard it yet either.

Tangerine Dream would make for some great ATMOS remixes.....Electronica, in general, as well. But we really can't expect SUPERB ATMOS remixes from 3 or 4 band members unless they employ a lot of 'trippy' elements in their music.

And I know that a lot of QQ posters balk at AMBIENT rears but on full range speakers and separate components AMBIENCE CAN TAKE ON A LIFE OF ITS OWN and add a tremendous dimension to those Front/Center speakers! In the end, it's REALLY the music that counts and some of the very best surround discs contain ambient surrounds and will tax your system more than a lot of discrete material. I know....I've HEARD IT!

 

[Larry Geller]

Actually, the early Acura's put the front channels in the REAR DOORS!!! This gave the rear seated passengers a better surround listen, although the center was still in the dashboard. This detail caused me great distress at first, because I thought the system was malfunctioning when I heard the fronts in the back doors.

I do not think the latest systems do this. I have not noticed it in my current Acura, but the older DVD-A systems did do this for sure.

My 2013 TSX has this and quad actually sounds better in the rear seats than in the front. Those door speakers perfectly resolve the phantom center channel above the back of the console. Along with the package shelf rears, you get a very tight and coherent mix. Of course, no one in the back can hear a damned thing you are saying in the front, so there's that.

 

[Soundfield]

..I know that a lot of QQ posters balk at AMBIENT rears but on full range speakers and separate components AMBIENCE CAN TAKE ON A LIFE OF ITS OWN and add a tremendous dimension to those Front/Center speakers! In the end, it's REALLY the music that counts and some of the very best surround discs contain ambient surrounds and will tax your system more than a lot of discrete material. I know....I've HEARD IT!

Absolutely. It’s relatively easy to create an initially impressive effect with lots of ping-peng-pong-pang "discrete" placements thrown into corners. It’s much more difficult to re-create an actual sense of a real space. If they attempt it at all, it’s where most ‘surround’ systems and recordings fail dismally. When it is done right however it is magical.

 

[JohnG]

I just leased a 2021 Jeep Grand Cherokee for 3 years and man that car has a pretty decent stereo system. Sounds great cranked up. But I am thinking in 3 years when the lease ends to finally buy an Acura MDX for its ELS system. I hear that the new 2022’s are pretty fine and I do love good surround sound. Might get a pre-owned with that Acura/ELS STUDIO®32 Premium Audio System with 12 Speakers.

 

[fizzywiggs41]

On the contrary, Scheiner is hardly out of touch. In an early interview when hardware manufacturers started releasing 9 & 11 channel receivers, he blunty stated that 5.1 was MORE than adequate for conveying multichannel. And from the probably over 200 former QUAD LPs released by Dutton Vocalion as QUAD SACDs [that's 4.0] does anyone really miss the center channel? Certainly NOT me. And if you listen to a lot of Scheiner's 5.1 remixes....the center channel is almost silent. And truthfully, a LOT of supergroups like Rush, Led Zep, the Beatles, The Doors, et alia only contain 3 to 4 band members and trying to extend those master tapes to 9, 11 or even ATMOS channels is a stretch. Sure anything can be done but will it sound RIGHT.

Scheiner is no fly by night ..... he has been recording and mixing for years.


Just adding more speakers to your system without matching their properties ACROSS THE BOARD is hardly honoring those re~mixing engineers who purposely ensure their speakers/amps/cables, etc. are perfect matches for their respective mixes!

I'm glad you brought this up.

Elliot Scheiner's recordings sound fantastic in QUAD !

A while back my center channel speaker failed .
So I thought I'd play a few of his 5.1 recordings , knowing full well his ability to record center ch in very subdued sound . Almost next to nothing actually.
Anyway I delayed in replacing my center ch speaker and listened to mixes (5.1) as is,( in quad).
Well.....surprise , surprise !!
Scheiner's recordings are just great in Quad !!
I'm surprised he has no 4channel recordings to his credit- (at least I think so ). Missed his "quad mixing calling" back in the 70's I think.

I also agree with his pronouncements extoling the virtues of 5.1. That 5 or 6 channels are enough , and you really don't need more speakers or channels to hear good surround.

I will be picking up a new center speaker soon , fwiw. I Definitely need one . (Movies must have center for proper dialog)

Those who admire ATMOS , well more power to them. Whatever you think you need for your own listening pleasure , is just fine by me.


In conclusion , people here on qq should give this little experiment a try. You won't be disappointed !


Fizzy


(PS: I think I'll not try this for his 5.1 Yoshimi)

 

[fredblue]

Tangerine Dream would make for some great ATMOS remixes.....Electronica, in general, as well. But we really can't expect SUPERB ATMOS remixes from 3 or 4 band members unless they employ a lot of 'trippy' elements in their music.

And I know that a lot of QQ posters balk at AMBIENT rears but on full range speakers and separate components AMBIENCE CAN TAKE ON A LIFE OF ITS OWN and add a tremendous dimension to those Front/Center speakers! In the end, it's REALLY the music that counts and some of the very best surround discs contain ambient surrounds and will tax your system more than a lot of discrete material. I know....I've HEARD IT!

sorry Ralphie i'll never agree with the philosophy of ambient surround mixes for multitrack studio recordings, to me it is just a total waste of the myriad opportunities multichannel mixing for music presents.

Live performances, solo instrumental music, some Classical Music, can all work in "Ambient Surround" for me, however i'm usually left underwhelmed when its an ambient presentation of a multitracked studio recording.

'double stereo' surround and upmixed Surround presentations vary in quality and are entirely different beasts. most of the former i can live without, a number of the latter i've found surprisingly listenable.

 

[sjcorne]

In conclusion , people here on qq should give this little experiment a try. You won't be disappointed !

I tried a variation of this experiment a while ago. I took the Gaucho DVD-A and made three sets of FLAC files: one left as-is (V1), one with the center channel folded into the front speakers (V2), and one with the center channel deleted entirely (V3). I couldn't really tell the difference between V1 and V2, but V3 seemed to be missing some 'oomph' in comparison to the others. That low-level mix of lead vocal, bass guitar, and snare drum in the center speaker adds just a bit more 'punch' and presence to those elements.

Some of Scheiner's other 5.1's have truly discrete elements in the center speaker--examples include the piano in "Free Bird" and acoustic guitar in "Hotel California".

 

[4-earredwonder]

sorry Ralphie i'll never agree with the philosophy of ambient surround mixes for multitrack studio recordings, to me it is just a total waste of the myriad opportunities multichannel mixing for music presents.

Live performances, solo instrumental music, some Classical Music, can all work in "Ambient Surround" for me, however i'm usually left underwhelmed when its an ambient presentation of a multitracked studio recording.

'double stereo' surround and upmixed Surround presentations vary in quality and are entirely different beasts. most of the former i can live without, a number of the latter i've found surprisingly listenable.

I've been replaying a lot of those [IMO, exceptional] Concord Jazz Multi~CH SACDs lately and there is WAY more going on in the rears 'than meets the ears,' Adam.

Some classic Jazz performances superbly captured by the Concord Engineers.

While I do agree double stereo is a complete wash~out I still think upmixing is a form of cheating but has its place when the multi tracks no longer exist.

I will NEVER argue that a well executed surround remix is a thing of beauty but still believe some of the very best discs I do own have extremely tasteful ambience adding to the pleasures of the front array of speakers.

And everyone's system is different....that cannot be denied!