Above post is referencing Within You Without You. Sorry. 
HiRez Poll Beatles, The - Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band [BluRay]
- Thread starter JonUrban
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I've been reading through the comments on this thread and found myself agreeing with many points. I too was overjoyed with what Mr. Martin did with the surround on Love. I too was a little disappointed with Pepper's surround but not as much as some. After I got the Pepper box last year I ripped the blu-ray to my computer where I already had the tracks from Love in order to make a "best of" those two releases in surround. I just used the tracks from Love that were mostly intact and not too "mashed". So after reading these comments I used the program Audacity (which is a free download) to look at the wave files from my downloads used in the compilation. I converted all the original tracks to multi-channel wave files for editing purposes. With Audacity you can listen to each channel individually or in combination with any number of the other channels in a song. What I saw surprised me. Mr. Martin seems to have mixed the tracks from both Love and Pepper with very similar strategies. He almost always isolates the main vocals in the center channel. You might think that's common but from my experience of looking at many releases on Audacity it's not. Now the main vocals might also be in some or all of the other channels too at a lower volume. I don't know if that's on purpose or he just couldn't separate them completely due to the limitation of 4 track recording. There is a fair amount of amplitude to the channels especially the fronts. There's more amplitude to the center channel than most releases I've looked at. Someone commented here about the loudness or harshness on Pepper and perhaps the amount of volume on the fronts and center channel accounts for that. But I saw the same thing on the Love tracks. Perhaps our impression of the surround on Love was better because we weren't expecting it to be that good and the reverse is true of Pepper. I'm not sure if that fully accounts for our impressions though. It seems like over time and multiple listens our first impression wouldn't count for as much.
For those who might be inclined and can rip the discs to your computer I highly suggest you check out Audacity. In addition to being able to see and listen to each channel individually you can also do some editing to each channel. If you don't think the surround channels are loud enough you can amplify them or decrease the amplitude in the fronts and center. Of course you're limited to what's in the channel. If there is only some ambience in the surround channels (and we all probably have at least one of those) amplifying the ambience is not going to improve your listening experience in most cases.
For those who might be inclined and can rip the discs to your computer I highly suggest you check out Audacity. In addition to being able to see and listen to each channel individually you can also do some editing to each channel. If you don't think the surround channels are loud enough you can amplify them or decrease the amplitude in the fronts and center. Of course you're limited to what's in the channel. If there is only some ambience in the surround channels (and we all probably have at least one of those) amplifying the ambience is not going to improve your listening experience in most cases.
Spins, seems you're relatively new here. Great analysis. Welcome, dude!
Thanks. I've been checking this site out off and on for years but just recently started throwing my opinion into the mix. It's good to know I'm not the only one who loves surround music.
Welcome to the forum
....I did focus on one aspect of your post...expectations....your observation is spot on...nobody expected much from the LOVE "project"...this was a soundtrack from a theatrical stage production and Apple Corps stated that it was the Beatles music "re-imagined"...so things were changed...and it took 3 years of negotiation with the surviving members of the band plus the 2 surviving wives to finally get approval for the project...it was George Harrison's idea....I mention this only as an example of how much reluctance there was to actually OK this project...any kind of "change" to the Beatles music brings up the classic Star Trek Kobayashi Maru illustration....the no-win scenario...changing anything in the iconic Beatles catalog is bound to alienate a lot of people...and although surround lovers adore the LOVE soundtrack...that's not the case everywhere...some think it's an abomination...and you have to consider how small the surround community is...a tiny niche....So back to Peppers...even though this "altered" music(LOVE) was a one off project...when the Peppers set was announced it triggered massive expectations in the surround community...especially on this forum....all people thought about was another Love edition...not the original album Peppers album...and when it wasn't LOVE...the knee jerk effect was evident…when someone votes a 1 on this release...that's the classic example of unrealistic expectations not being realized...the content alone should have triggered something higher than a 1.....
Is it fair to judge a title so harshly when your vote is based primarily on your own lofty expectations that weren't realistic to begin with....evidently some feel that way...I'm just glad I didn't think Peppers was going to be another Love because I have enjoyed this release from day 1
Again...welcome to the forum
Is it fair to judge a title so harshly when your vote is based primarily on your own lofty expectations that weren't realistic to begin with....evidently some feel that way...I'm just glad I didn't think Peppers was going to be another Love because I have enjoyed this release from day 1
I've been giving this some thought recently. I've found this applies to movies too as well as just about anything else. High expectations will often but not always lead to some disappointment in a new release. I think to properly evaluate a piece of art you've to see or hear it at least three times. After the first scenario with high expectations when you then relisten to a record you're bringing lowered expectations into the experience. How often have you seen a movie or listened to a recording a second time and said "That's better than I remembered it"? Particularly when you were disappointed the first time around. So the third time you should be able to experience the music or movie in a more objective frame of mind. Well, that's my theory.
himey
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Welcome to the forum
So back to Peppers...even though this "altered" music(LOVE) was a one off project...when the Peppers set was announced it triggered massive expectations in the surround community...especially on this forum....all people thought about was another Love edition...not the original album Peppers album...and when it wasn't LOVE...the knee jerk effect was evident…when someone votes a 1 on this release...that's the classic example of unrealistic expectations not being realized...the content alone should have triggered something higher than a 1.....
Is it fair to judge a title so harshly when your vote is based primarily on your own lofty expectations that weren't realistic to begin with....evidently some feel that way...I'm just glad I didn't think Peppers was going to be another Love because I have enjoyed this release from day 1
Again...welcome to the forum
I think the expectation was that it would be discrete and not overly loud like any quality mix. Yes, the Love mix falls into both categories which also added to our expectations. The Anthology series also falls into both categories. One off project/knee jerk reaction doesn't excuse the faults that many people feel this release has. As for me, I did have over expectations which in the end makes it even more a kick to the nuts but there have been releases since I had high expectations for, that lived up to, and exceeded the build up.
I think you voted a 9 or 10 initially on this release and then changed it to a 6...I thought you would be happy and just let it go...but evidently you haven't....I just question your contention that "many" people feel the way you do about this release because it's not reflected in the voting even though they can change their vote...and your contention that only quality releases are both discrete and not overly loud...I don't consider this release "overly loud" and there are quite a few highly regarded(quality)releases that aren't very discrete...I do give you credit for admitting that you had "over expectations"....this statement from a member is an illustration of my point..."sonically it sounds as good as I have ever heard it, but the piles of disappointment at what (might)have been weighs heavy on this release"....so it's the best sounding version of this album ever released...but it's not as good as he thought it would be...if that's not an expectation problem I've never seen one..so that's all I can say on this matter...you can beat this dead horse if you wish...but I'm done...
himey
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LOL! Let what go? My opinion? How long ago was my last post on this topic? You have posted like a hundred times since. Dude, you shouldn't let my opinion bother you. Your excuses you give this release is comical. I have no reason to attempt to change your opinion, I expect the same. Seriously, glad you like it. I don't, and would be very sad if all multichannel mixes took this same approach.
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I likewise changed my vote but deferred to an 8. I still think all the 'controversy' regarding Giles Martin's 5.1 remix was ultimately a comparison to LOVE's 5.1 remix, which, IMO, was much more adventuresome. Also Pepper was HOT and I commented that the tape machines in those days probably maxed out at 15,000kHz so there might've been some manipulation to make it sound 'more contemporary.'
I also commented that the White Album which was recorded on 8 tracks hopefully will be MORE adventuresome, mix wise, as Pepper's 4 tracks with all those overdubs got 'somewhat of a pass.'
I voted an 8 on this when I first got it and I stand by that vote. Like Clint, I don't like the idea of changing votes.
I have the following comments....
With respect to expectations, I had relatively low expectations at the time of release due to the 1+ mixes. So I was not let down by the release.. It could have been much worse.
I suspect that if this were not such an iconic band and release, the overall scores would be considerably lower. More 7's and less 10's.. If you are one of those that don't consider the content in your voting, I can certainly understand a lowish vote.
I am not bothered by any loudness problem. I guess I just don't hear it on this one. YMMV. I think I'm less bothered by that particular problem than are others. So it lost no points for fidelity from me.
I also believe it is the best version of this release that I have ever heard. But that in and of itself does not make it an excellent mix. Half of the tracks are damn good, The other half are mediocre or worse. I do think some of this is due to what was available to Giles in the way of multitracks. This is only my opinion. I have no real knowledge on the matter.
Finally, I seldom vote anything lower than a 7 on anything. If it is that bad I just don't buy it. and for me, no buy means no vote... even if I actually have obtained the tracks by other means.
I think I'm gonna burn one and go listen to it.
I have the following comments....
With respect to expectations, I had relatively low expectations at the time of release due to the 1+ mixes. So I was not let down by the release.. It could have been much worse.
I suspect that if this were not such an iconic band and release, the overall scores would be considerably lower. More 7's and less 10's.. If you are one of those that don't consider the content in your voting, I can certainly understand a lowish vote.
I am not bothered by any loudness problem. I guess I just don't hear it on this one. YMMV. I think I'm less bothered by that particular problem than are others. So it lost no points for fidelity from me.
I also believe it is the best version of this release that I have ever heard. But that in and of itself does not make it an excellent mix. Half of the tracks are damn good, The other half are mediocre or worse. I do think some of this is due to what was available to Giles in the way of multitracks. This is only my opinion. I have no real knowledge on the matter.
Finally, I seldom vote anything lower than a 7 on anything. If it is that bad I just don't buy it. and for me, no buy means no vote... even if I actually have obtained the tracks by other means.
I think I'm gonna burn one and go listen to it.
I hope you are right. but the White Album is also a more "stripped down" release, and we may get more of the same.
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I was NEVER a fan of Giles' 'solo' [sans Sir George] 5.1 remixes. The 1+ and Criterion 5.1 [?????] remaster of A Hards Day Night is double stereo. Hire Steve Wilson or Elliot Scheiner to do the Beatles' 5.1 remixes JUSTICE. Period!
himey
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Much better chance of the new Imagine mix sounding good. I have zero interest in WA sadly.
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Does that mean you won't be doin' IT in the road, himey?
himey
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MrSmithers
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I do reckon' (cor blimey guv'nor) that personally this is such a famous title there really was no way of satisfying everyone. I will quite happily stand in front of a Tom Cruise "A few good men" interrogation - that I have never heard a better version.... I like the remix and I stand by my 9... Come on - compared to the original - "You have to admit it's getting better"... ?!
I agree. Although there are a handful of tunes on Imagine that I routinely skip over when I play that album, what's left kicks serious ass (i'm talking to you How Do You Sleep? and you Gimme Some Truth), That release is looking more and more downright fun with all the structure stuff that is included. And if this release goes well and they turn their attention to Plastic Ono Band, which even though is more basic ... I mean IMAGINE POB as a 4 corner discrete mix... I'm Droolin'.
Anyway I am way glad Clint talked me into a rare (for me anyway) pre-order for Imagine. So thank you Clint...
You da man...
,
But for me, even if the White Album mix is only what the Pepper mix is, It's a hard buy for me. Its the White Album after all. And like I said 50% of Pepper is pretty damn good. I'd buy it again for that 50% alone. So 50% of the WA in decent surround,,,, I'm in.
MrSmithers
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Will you still need me, will you still feed me - when I"m 55?!
