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jaybird100

900 Club - QQ All-Star
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
977
Location
Pembroke Pines, FL
Hi all

We are pedaling in the background working on a bundle of new things. Sales of the Surround Master into the consumer market has been poor and we have found that the major stores are not really interested in a new "add on" accessory from a bunch of colonial unknowns located in the arse end of the world. In short the product requires some consumer education that the shops are unwilling to do. Bugger!

Undaunted we then asked what the "great unwashed" consumer market does understand and it turns out they like a complete "one stop shop " approach where they buy a box that goes between their source/s and speakers and out pops surround sound where the user never has to worry about what surround setting is best - just connect to stereo and let Involve take care of things. Use your existing speakers.

Well here is the early pre proto look at what our new add on woofer (dual 8 inch)/ 6 channel class D/ pre amp/ Involve decoder looks like. Please note the rear control board has not arrived from the metal worker yet and is a paper stick on. On the woofer is no chump - its the same as we used in the Nakamichi Dragon electrostatic hybrid - really flat to 24 Hz.

We are also working on a non sub woofer version- will preview shortly.

Regards

Chucky
Perhaps the biggest obstacle to the "add-on" component market is that many new home theater receivers and processors don't allow for connecting a multi-channel device, such as the Surround Master, to be connected via analog multi-channel inputs. There would need to be a way around that. For those of us who have older devices that still have those inputs, the Surround Master v2 is a great way to get more from our systems than we knew we could.
 

Scott65

701 Club - QQ All-Star
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
706
Location
Tasmania, Australia
Perhaps the biggest obstacle to the "add-on" component market is that many new home theater receivers and processors don't allow for connecting a multi-channel device, such as the Surround Master, to be connected via analog multi-channel inputs. There would need to be a way around that. For those of us who have older devices that still have those inputs, the Surround Master v2 is a great way to get more from our systems than we knew we could.
Having mult-channel inputs (so that I could use the SM v2) was one of the factors that influenced my choice of new amplifier last year.
 

armyjazzer

New member
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
8
Does anyone know when there will be more of the Surround Master V2's available for purchase? When I go to Involve's site it always says "available on backorder". I have the original surround master and wanted to order one of the new V2 models. Thanks.
 

chucky3042

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Joined
Apr 9, 2012
Messages
1,335
Does anyone know when there will be more of the Surround Master V2's available for purchase? When I go to Involve's site it always says "available on backorder". I have the original surround master and wanted to order one of the new V2 models. Thanks.
Hi Armyjazzer
Just out of stock temporarily and a bit stuffed up by Chinese new year with them not delivering prior to going on Holiday (they really have let us down badly) Should have new stock in 4 - 6 weeks. If you are desperate message me and we should be able to dig up one.

Regards

Chucky
 

armyjazzer

New member
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
8
Hi Armyjazzer
Just out of stock temporarily and a bit stuffed up by Chinese new year with them not delivering prior to going on Holiday (they really have let us down badly) Should have new stock in 4 - 6 weeks. If you are desperate message me and we should be able to dig up one.

Regards

Chucky
Thanks! I will check the site periodically to see if in stock and will order one as soon as they are in stock and available to ship again.
 

ButchDeal

New member
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
2
Hi Karl

The problem is the total market is about 200 people worldwide for that style of thing

Regards

Chucky
That makes a lot of since but how about a simple adapter. shouldn't cost much to make a simple board that plugs into the SQ adapter slot on the old Marantz amps with 6 RCA cables to connect the surround master.
Then we can use the front controls as intended and instead of having to use the tape port for the adapter.
 

Beefalo

900 Club - QQ All-Star
QQ Supporter
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
935
Location
La Mirada, CA - USA
That makes a lot of since but how about a simple adapter. shouldn't cost much to make a simple board that plugs into the SQ adapter slot on the old Marantz amps with 6 RCA cables to connect the surround master.
Then we can use the front controls as intended and instead of having to use the tape port for the adapter.
Welcome to the QQ forum ButchDeal
 

chucky3042

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Joined
Apr 9, 2012
Messages
1,335
Dear surround crazies

Just a catchup on whats happening. Its really been a terrible start to the new year with

1 Our Chinese manufacturer not keeping their promises on sending the first production run of the new Y4 and the next run of the Surround Masters (with some improvements) before Chinese new year

2 Our Chinese manufacturer effectively closing down the factory 10 days before the actual Chinese new year start of 18 Jan

3 Not packing a critical board (for our other solar battery company Zenaji) in the pre holiday shipment - delaying production and cash flow by a probable 3 months- killing around $600K cash flow

4 The Corona virus is really damaging us and looks like manufacture may restart again on 1 March!!!!! But some of our other countries in our manufacture chain are putting import quarantine of 2 weeks - delaying everything again!

5 Documents going missing on international container forms causing us massive storage additional costs

6 Dave the Bitch (Overture) has a really crook back caused by being an idiot with his 2 year old kid causing him to be off work for over a week and only now slowly limping in again.

In short production is delayed conservatively by 2- 3 months. Having said that the new Y4 is really working very well and the next version SM has at least 5 db more distortion free headroom.

If I have been a bit quiet in the last few weeks its because of all the above crap. I went to my chemist the other day and saw a blood pressure meter - slapped it on and it measured 196/ 116!!!! My usual is 120/80. I popped a Valium and then visited my quack, he retested it and it was down to 130/85. He said its work pressure related anxiety. Personally I thought it was dealing with my business partner Dawson!

Yours in terminal frustration

Chucky
 

J. PUPSTER

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
3,419
Location
CALIFORNIA (CENTRAL)
Dear surround crazies

Just a catchup on whats happening. Its really been a terrible start to the new year with

1 Our Chinese manufacturer not keeping their promises on sending the first production run of the new Y4 and the next run of the Surround Masters (with some improvements) before Chinese new year

2 Our Chinese manufacturer effectively closing down the factory 10 days before the actual Chinese new year start of 18 Jan

3 Not packing a critical board (for our other solar battery company Zenaji) in the pre holiday shipment - delaying production and cash flow by a probable 3 months- killing around $600K cash flow

4 The Corona virus is really damaging us and looks like manufacture may restart again on 1 March!!!!! But some of our other countries in our manufacture chain are putting import quarantine of 2 weeks - delaying everything again!

5 Documents going missing on international container forms causing us massive storage additional costs

6 Dave the Bitch (Overture) has a really crook back caused by being an idiot with his 2 year old kid causing him to be off work for over a week and only now slowly limping in again.

In short production is delayed conservatively by 2- 3 months. Having said that the new Y4 is really working very well and the next version SM has at least 5 db more distortion free headroom.

If I have been a bit quiet in the last few weeks its because of all the above crap. I went to my chemist the other day and saw a blood pressure meter - slapped it on and it measured 196/ 116!!!! My usual is 120/80. I popped a Valium and then visited my quack, he retested it and it was down to 130/85. He said its work pressure related anxiety. Personally I thought it was dealing with my business partner Dawson!

Yours in terminal frustration

Chucky
Here’s to a much better rest of the year for you and the other great folks you work with down your way 🍻
 

bill114

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
19
Location
Seminole, FL
Dear surround crazies

Just a catchup on whats happening. Its really been a terrible start to the new year with

1 Our Chinese manufacturer not keeping their promises on sending the first production run of the new Y4 and the next run of the Surround Masters (with some improvements) before Chinese new year

2 Our Chinese manufacturer effectively closing down the factory 10 days before the actual Chinese new year start of 18 Jan

3 Not packing a critical board (for our other solar battery company Zenaji) in the pre holiday shipment - delaying production and cash flow by a probable 3 months- killing around $600K cash flow

4 The Corona virus is really damaging us and looks like manufacture may restart again on 1 March!!!!! But some of our other countries in our manufacture chain are putting import quarantine of 2 weeks - delaying everything again!

5 Documents going missing on international container forms causing us massive storage additional costs

6 Dave the Bitch (Overture) has a really crook back caused by being an idiot with his 2 year old kid causing him to be off work for over a week and only now slowly limping in again.

In short production is delayed conservatively by 2- 3 months. Having said that the new Y4 is really working very well and the next version SM has at least 5 db more distortion free headroom.

If I have been a bit quiet in the last few weeks its because of all the above crap. I went to my chemist the other day and saw a blood pressure meter - slapped it on and it measured 196/ 116!!!! My usual is 120/80. I popped a Valium and then visited my quack, he retested it and it was down to 130/85. He said its work pressure related anxiety. Personally I thought it was dealing with my business partner Dawson!

Yours in terminal frustration

Chucky
Try to take care of yourself. Good health is one thing money can't buy! Soon my financial situation will be improved and a SM is on my radar.
I'm curious how much of an improvement it would be over my restored Lafayette SQ-W.
 
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Sonik Wiz

701 Club - QQ All-Star
QQ Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2005
Messages
758
Location
Kansas City
I'm curious how much of an improvement it would be over my restored Lafayette SQ-W.
I have not listened to the L SQ-W but I am very familiar with all the flavors of SQ decoding in general. Based on that I'd say the Surround Master is leaps & bounds ahead of the SQ-W for playing stereo, perfect of course for QS, and just a hair shy of Fosgate Tate 101A for SQ decoding. Complete absence of pumping or other artifacts & the three band decoding is something no commercial SQ decoder ever offered.

Money well spent!
 

ar surround

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
QQ Supporter
Joined
Apr 3, 2010
Messages
1,660
Location
New Joisey
Try to take care of yourself. Good health is one thing money can't buy! Soon my financial situation will be improved and a SM is on my radar.
I'm curious how much of an improvement it would be over my restored Lafayette SQ-W.
I had a Lafayette SQ-W. On a few SQ titles such as those from Project3, it exhibited some definite pumping. But overall, it was pretty good on the Columbia quads. And as Sonik Wiz says, the SMv2 is completely artifact free under all circumstances.
 

chucky3042

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Joined
Apr 9, 2012
Messages
1,335
I have not listened to the L SQ-W but I am very familiar with all the flavors of SQ decoding in general. Based on that I'd say the Surround Master is leaps & bounds ahead of the SQ-W for playing stereo, perfect of course for QS, and just a hair shy of Fosgate Tate 101A for SQ decoding. Complete absence of pumping or other artifacts & the three band decoding is something no commercial SQ decoder ever offered.

Money well spent!
Hate to disagree for once Sonic and yes I am extremely biased but on every listening test against the Tate I have done I can straight away hear the Tate in terms of sonic artifacts and gurgles on numbers I think its about the same maybe Tate has the edge but its not an audible thing
 

Sonik Wiz

701 Club - QQ All-Star
QQ Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2005
Messages
758
Location
Kansas City
Hate to disagree for once Sonic and yes I am extremely biased but on every listening test against the Tate I have done I can straight away hear the Tate in terms of sonic artifacts and gurgles on numbers I think its about the same maybe Tate has the edge but its not an audible thing
Wow you pack a lot into one sentence!

I know I'm on thin ice since I can't compare the Tate directly to the SM (the former is quite inoperative) I can easily recall my impressions & judgment of the Fosgate Tate to Sansui Vario-Matrix. One aspect little talked about is that the Vario-Matrix enhances the direction of a dominant sound while diffusing lower level sounds. If a lead guitar starts in left back & quite loud drums start in center front then the guitar direction becomes diffuse. That is what happens when separation enhancement is part if the actual decoding. However the brain will largely think the guitar is in left back because that is where it was heard first. I think this push/pull sharpen/diffusing action works in a subtle way, almost sub-conscious , but it's still there. The Tate system works after decoding so it generally just stays sharp & separation is enhanced with out any diffusion.

It could be argued that the vario-Matrix is more pleasing since the ear/brain combo likes contrasts in sensing direction. That's why the Sansui Vario-Matrix soundfield always sounds more full & round, if you will, than Tate enhancement, which always sounded a little dryer & thin to me, but also more precise.

The Sansui units all seemed a little bit warm sounding too me and the Tate sounded just the tiniest bit bright. I'd say the SM tonal wise is the most neutral matrix type decoder I have ever heard with any format intended to be used by it.

I also remember the Fosgate Tate 101A having better front to back separation than the Surround Master. There is bit of bleed through playing center front in SQ mode in the rear chs & I remember the Fosgate being silent.

Elsewhere you have given extensive data on the SM decoder using the Involve encoder to generate test signals but I don't think you've posted in the SQ mode which would be very interesting. Are you essentially using the same approach Sansui did for SQ? Seems I remember Sansui saying 12dB center front to back separation for SQ.

Of course your biased that's what test monkeys are for! Even that is not fool proof. I remeber plenty of articles during the testing of the Tate enhancement where listening panels said the decoded SQ sounded better than discrete. Hmmm.... My own experiment with QS encoding of Suzanne Cianni discrete tracks & played through the SM v2 I could not tell any difference between them. And really that is something.

Lastly the Fosgate unit had that groovy stereo synth switch that opened up the soundstage to a 270 deg or as some people have called it, a horse shoe. Even tho with numbers it can be said a panned signal left to right do the same thing on Sansui Synthesizer or the SQ Tate maethod, audibly they are quite different. Besides what is desired of the Sansui effect it also lowers the front ch atiny bit, raises the rear signals a bit & generally enhances the ambient reverby sounds. The Fosgate tate unit simply gives the wrap around effect & therefore, once again, it sounds a little bit dryer but more precise. At any rate I still prefer the over all "feel" to the Sansui method of enhancing stereo input.
 

chucky3042

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Joined
Apr 9, 2012
Messages
1,335
Hey Sonic

Usually I am a yep and nope kinda guy but really good observations in your comments and all accurate.

The whole philosophy of the Sansui method is based on the precedence effect summarised by a sound even if its 12 dB quieter will be perceived as the dominant direction if it precedes the louder sound by between 0.7 to 30 ms.

1581640302455.png


12 db really is a magic and forgotten number in audio! So yes the QS Sansui matrix really is dominated by the louder bits. Where we differ is that we are very selective on what is actually the louder bits as sometimes the lower level signal (say at 3 kHz) will be perceived as louder than a 300 Hz signal that is of greater magnitude - see the Fletcher Munsen curve.

1581640628169.png


So in the SM sometimes lower absolute level signals take dominance over the louder bits. This tends to enable the SM to dig up more lower level detail. Plus the tri band thing also enhances detail (as did the QSD1).

In regards to did we borrow the Sansui SQ decode method- we did not even know how Sansui did theirs!!!!!! At the time I remember Oxford Dickie pouring a bucket of poo on us claiming we did not do genuine decodes....blah blah, so Bitch and I were meticulous to get right down to SQ basics and do it as per the basics. Interestingly we reached a point where we were doing everything correctly and we were getting great separation but it just sounded crap and "switchy". The next step was to shove the decoded SQ signal though our Involve "pick and place" algorithms and BING it sounded great!!!!!!!!

Here are our SQ numbers:

SQ Test Tones results.jpg


Please note the diagonal number is an offset- not a separation.


I to was amazed and stunned by the separation of the Suzanne Cianni recording, there were passages of hard to understand "how that works" where the Involve system was separating stuff with no pumping/ image shift or bleedthrough where it was buried in a sea of pink noise.

Think we will try the synthesiser mode thing- its really easy to do in the DSP, at least it will be a bit of fun.

Regards

Chucky
 

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bill114

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
19
Location
Seminole, FL
I had a Lafayette SQ-W. On a few SQ titles such as those from Project3, it exhibited some definite pumping. But overall, it was pretty good on the Columbia quads. And as Sonik Wiz says, the SMv2 is completely artifact free under all circumstances.
Funny that. Most of my SQ titles are Columbia with a handful of ABC Quadradisc (which as it turns out are QS) and I've never noticed any pumping.
Being that the FL to FR seperation of the SQ-W is speced at only 20 db and that my system is all seperates (Arcam FMJ C31 pre, NAD 2600A front and NAD 2400 rear) I only use the rear outs of the SQ-W. The front channels come directly from the preamp which coveniently has two sets rca and one XLR.
 

sjcorne

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
2,343
Location
Southern NY
I also remember the Fosgate Tate 101A having better front to back separation than the Surround Master. There is bit of bleed through playing center front in SQ mode in the rear chs & I remember the Fosgate being silent.
I've got a working 101A and an SMv1. In SQ mode, there's quite a bit of front-center to back-center leakage on the Involve unit - I'd say you can hear the lead vocal at about 50-75% volume in the rears when it's not supposed to be there at all. With the Fosgate, it ranges from maybe 25% bleed to almost completely silent.
 
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