Rip Blu-ray

[barfle]

Yeah. Well I guess most modern AVR's have bass management, so if one does not actually have a sub most will revert to "large" front speakers and redirect there.
Then usually there are settings of course for crossover, etc.

But I reckon you are talking about people that actually have a sub and the AVR is set up that way. So yes, just like e.g. in traditional Quad there is no Lfe channel so whatever exists will come from the 4 speakers "true" to the mix.

Personally I did not use a sub for years, as my 4 corner speakers are pretty good down to about 40 Hz. Now I do use a sub and see an improvement in mixes with the .1 or Lfe channel.

Again, this is a pretty nerdy question. Of course, if there’s no sub, I expect the LFE would either disappear or be spread around the other speakers using settings determined during setup. That’s not knowlwdge, that’s supposition on my part. Some processors might spread it around and some might drop it. Dunno.

OTOH, a processor getting an LFE channel might well just say “hands off” and do little more than room correction, which, if the channel is silent, stays silent. I don’t think my Marantz’s manual says anything about changing the signal of an LFE if the mix has significant low frequency content in the main channels. At least I couldn’t find it.

 

[mandrix]

Again, this is a pretty nerdy question. Of course, if there’s no sub, I expect the LFE would either disappear or be spread around the other speakers using settings determined during setup. That’s not knowlwdge, that’s supposition on my part. Some processors might spread it around and some might drop it. Dunno.

OTOH, a processor getting an LFE channel might well just say “hands off” and do little more than room correction, which, if the channel is silent, stays silent. I don’t think my Marantz’s manual says anything about changing the signal of an LFE if the mix has significant low frequency content in the main channels. At least I couldn’t find it.

Yes but if you don't have a sub, and indicate so in the Marantz settings, does it not set your front speakers to "Large"? That's the way most modern AVR's work.

 

[barfle]

Yes but if you don't have a sub, and indicate so in the Marantz settings, does it not set your front speakers to "Large"? That's the way most modern AVR's work.

I’m pretty sure it does, but that doesn’t answer any of my questions about what the side effects of a silent .1 channel might be.

 

[mandrix]

None that I know of, barfle. But without testing I could not say for sure. Would be easy to test though. It's like Quad: often people will put empty channels in the C and Lfe to make them compatible with their equipment. Since the music was mixed for Quad, the two empty channels are there soley because some equipment will not play Quad.

 

[mandrix]

Actually, usually just putting an empty C channel makes them compatible.

 

[barfle]

None that I know of, barfle. But without testing I could not say for sure. Would be easy to test though. It's like Quad: often people will put empty channels in the C and Lfe to make them compatible with their equipment. Since the music was mixed for Quad, the two empty channels are there soley because some equipment will not play Quad.

Right, I understand that a 4.0 file might not be compatible with some gear, and putting in those silent channels would make them pretty universally playable. But are there side effects on other equipment? And how often would it matter? Just wondering out loud to a group with a lot of knowledge I haven’t lived long enough in the right places to have gotten on my own.

 

[jimfisheye]

You get a number of full range channels and then an additional bass range only channel delivered to you.

Option #1: You can set up speakers 1:1 for the file delivered to you.
Pretty straight forward!

Option #2: You can decide to make a speaker managed system and consolidate all the low bass from all channels to a dedicated subwoofer.
You need to click the controls to remove the low bass from all mains channels and add that to the delivered Lfe channel going to your subwoofer.
This is an efficient trick leveraging sub bass frequencies being omnidirectional. This is the most common speaker management.

Option #3: You can decide to make a speaker managed system and redirect the Lfe channel content to your front mains speaker pair.
If you have sufficient sub bass range in your front mains speakers to where a dedicated subwoofer would be redundant, this is an option.

You have channels of full range audio and possibly an additional channel of bass only audio delivered to you. If you go with a speaker managed setup, it's on you to set it up and calibrate it. You can easily have transparent sound as the mixer intended. Mix or mastering mistakes need correction in any example.

Careful with option #3 though!
Because there's an old school subwoofer use scenario:
Use a sub in the studio with a crossover eq built into it to cut all the highs.
Use mains that roll off on the lows where they do because they are only so big.
Double send mix elements to mains and sub that need more bottom.
Don't pay any fucking mind that it's a full range send to the sub because the high cut takes care of that.
Don't pay any fucking mind to double sending the bass elements because your mains are rolling off that element - the thing that led you to sending to the sub.

You can still see the logic there. But it's seat of the pants as opposed to calibrated and precision moves. And it assumes a consumer has a similar subwoofer that has a crossover eq to cut all the highs. If you do option #3 speaker management, you'll be in for a surprise with one of these 'old school' sub use mixes. OldToolsHD is still set up with crude Lfe sends on their panners for this old style of subwoofer mixing.

Most of the consumer confusion come up because the option #2 speaker managed system is so common. People see that and start assuming the mix delivered in the file has all the bass only in the sub and the mains channels are highs only. And that's not how any of this works! All mains channels are always full range. And yes, that includes your new height channels in Atmos!

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Right, I understand that a 4.0 file might not be compatible with some gear, and putting in those silent channels would make them pretty universally playable. But are there side effects on other equipment? And how often would it matter? Just wondering out loud to a group with a lot of knowledge I haven’t lived long enough in the right places to have gotten on my own.

I know of no side effects. What kind of side effects might you suspect?

 

[jimfisheye]

Right, I understand that a 4.0 file might not be compatible with some gear, and putting in those silent channels would make them pretty universally playable. But are there side effects on other equipment? And how often would it matter? Just wondering out loud to a group with a lot of knowledge I haven’t lived long enough in the right places to have gotten on my own.

To answer more directly, no. No side effects.

Speaker management for bass either places bass frequencies from all the main channels into your Lfe channel on your system (option #2 above) or places the Lfe content into your front mains pair (option #3 above).

Option #2 bass managed system:
Bass removed from 4 main channels and redirected to your sub.
You have calibrated this speaker management and the result is bass reproduced 1:1 as the mix was delivered.

Option #3 bass managed system:
Silent Lfe channel added to front L/R = unchanged front L/R

 

[AYanguas]

....

Option #3: You can decide to make a speaker managed system and redirect the Lfe channel content to your front mains speaker pair.
If you have sufficient sub bass range in your front mains speakers to where a dedicated subwoofer would be redundant, this is an option.

......

My Option #4? Or perhaps is the same Option #3?

- I have no SUB declared in the AVR config. Forced decision since my SUB broke and I have not repaired it nor bought another one.

- Accordingly: I have defined all speakers as LARGE (no bass management). My speakers are more or less good full range.

RESULTS:

- The LFE channel outputs not only for the pair FL, FR, but also for the Side Surrounds: SL, SR.

- I have a much more Equalized bass across the room. (As if I had 4 SUBwoofers in FL, FR, SL, SR locations). I have no more the bass booming peaks and low bass valleys walking across my room.

- Of course, I do not get high volume level Boomy Bass, but for Music is more than enough.

- I will try to put a custom Auddyssey curve (with Ratbuddyssey) to enhance the bass freqs, but at the moment I'm too busy listening to music, and that is good enough

 

[jimfisheye]

I'm not telling you not to put the Lfe channel content in all of your mains speakers. If it sounds right and doesn't cause phase or standing wave issues, then great! That would be the concern I'd mess with in setup. The quick advice is to redirect Lfe to the front pair for that (option #3 above) style speaker management.

'By the book' sub calibration and placement:
Step 1 - Place sub at listening sweet spot. Play test tone.
Step 2 - Walk around the room and find the spot the test tone "blooms" the strongest.
Step 3 - Place the sub at that strongest "bloom" spot.
Step 4 - Now calibrate the level at the listening sweet spot.

Result: Bass will not bloom weirdly loud in odd places in the room.

If your room is so well constructed that this effect doesn't happen... congratulations on that! And maybe more subs could work well then too!

 

[AYanguas]

I'm not telling you not to put the Lfe channel content in all of your mains speakers. If it sounds right and doesn't cause phase or standing wave issues, then great! That would be the concern I'd mess with in setup. The quick advice is to redirect Lfe to the front pair for that (option #3 above) style speaker management.

I'm not sure if you're responding to my previous post or if you're saying something else.

BTW, I do not know how to 'redirect' the LFE channel content to particular speakers. Without editing/mixing the mch file, of course.

What I was explaining in my previous post is that my AVR, when the SUB does not exist in the configuration, the AVR sends the LFE content directly to four speakers LF, RF, SL, SR, instead to only fronts LR, which was what I thought before. Then I think this AVR behaviour is well thought out to distribute LFE content around the entire room more evenly.

Other thing is to do bass management (without a SUB), set some speakers SMALL/crossover and the bass content for those channels will be redirected to Front Mains only (?) or also to the rest LARGE speakers?
I didn't test it yet.

 

[jimfisheye]

I'm not sure if you're responding to my previous post or if you're saying something else.

BTW, I do not know how to 'redirect' the LFE channel content to particular speakers. ...

It would depend on how the speaker management controls worked on the AVR in question. And you might have to demo what some of the settings do if they use non technical terms. eg. "Small mains" translates to "Remove low frequencies below x Hz crossover frequency from mains channels and redirect to Lfe channel." Maybe they don't even let you set the crossover and only give you 1 or 3 choices, etc. So choose the best options available.

Or what the software features allowed if using a computer and media players. Editing files in a DAW is just matter of fact but now you have your mastering hat on.

 

[par4ken]

What I was explaining in my previous post is that my AVR, when the SUB does not exist in the configuration, the AVR sends the LFE content directly to four speakers LF, RF, SL, SR, instead to only fronts LR, which was what I thought before. Then I think this AVR behaviour is well thought out to distribute LFE content around the entire room more evenly.

Other thing is to do bass management (without a SUB), set some speakers SMALL/crossover and the bass content for those channels will be redirected to Front Mains only (?) or also to the rest LARGE speakers?
I didn't test it yet.

I don't have an AVR but what you are describing is how INHO it (bass management) should always work. Send the low frequencies to all of the large speakers, not just the front!
There should also be an option for small front speakers even if there is no sub. In that case you would lose the low bass but what else would you expect without large speakers?

 

[jimfisheye]

There should be a setting that makes the most sense.

The way to test it is to play a frequency sweep test tone in each of the mains channels. You want a smooth transparent transition from main speaker to sub. If it gets louder or quieter or lurches at the crossover point, then adjust the levels or settings. OK now you need some "test" disc...
Maybe a song you know that has the right content?

 

[AYanguas]

I think these explanations are becoming somewhat generic or confusing.

In summary, you just have to study, learn and practice these three topics:

- LFE channel, whose content goes to the SUB (or SUBs) speakers, or other Speakers if there is no SUB.
- Bass management config to redirect (if wanted) low frequencies of each channel below crossover to the SUB (SUBs) or other speakers. Not to the LFE channel.
- Calibration processes to make smooth the crossover transitions and adjust room response to a predefined or custom desired curve.

As with everything, there is a learning curve that goes from basic to advanced.

I did all required learning to understand all concepts and pending to execute advanced calibration processes.

 

[barfle]

I know of no side effects. What kind of side effects might you suspect?

Sending deep bass to main speakers that can’t handle them.

 

[barfle]

To answer more directly, no. No side effects.

Speaker management for bass either places bass frequencies from all the main channels into your Lfe channel on your system (option #2 above) or places the Lfe content into your front mains pair (option #3 above).

Option #2 bass managed system:
Bass removed from 4 main channels and redirected to your sub.
You have calibrated this speaker management and the result is bass reproduced 1:1 as the mix was delivered.

Option #3 bass managed system:
Silent Lfe channel added to front L/R = unchanged front L/R

I kind of expected #2 was a “normal” reaction, but I wonder if that’s universally available. As we’ve seen, a 4.0 file isn’t always recognized, although my Oppo 105 has no problem with it. I don’t recall my sub kicking in with any of the recordings I own, although revisiting them would be informational and enjoyable.

 

[barfle]

- Bass management config to redirect (if wanted) low frequencies of each channel below crossover to the SUB (SUBs) or other speakers. Not to the LFE channel.

I assume you mean that the LFE channel is what’s provided to you on the media you’re playing, so adding program bass to that is a non sequitur, and adding program bass to the output of the LFE is a function that can be accomplished by bass management.

 

[jimfisheye]

LFE (Low Frequency Emitter) is the techy term for subwoofer channel.
Sorry! "LFE" is in strong use labeled across everything and "sub" is not. So I followed.

Your AVR will have the speaker management features the maker decided to program into it. This is one reason some of us prefer the computer approach with this because you can dial up whatever you please.

'All mains bass to the subwoofer' and 'LFE channel to mains speakers' are the common scenarios. Both can be dialed in to make your listening experience with the mix 1:1 as intended. Leveraging low frequencies being omnidirectional.

Speaker management is a playback setting to calibrate a managed system into 1:1 reproduction. Different channel format sources should have no impact. Something awkward or poorly thought out in a particular AVR's speaker management features is certainly possible like anything else. You either work around it as much is possible or replace it.