Moody Blues - In Search Of The Lost Chord (50th Anniversary set with 5.1 "manipulation" by Jakko Jakszyk).

[DennisMabry]

Does anyone have anything positive to say about this set? I have a friend who says it sounds great and he can hear things in the recording that he had not heard before. So I'm getting conflicting opinions here. I know our small community can be brutal on mixes that are not super discrete. I also prefer a Steven Wilson mix to say a Richard Chycki (Rush), or James Guthrie (Pink Floyd) mix. However I still enjoy those mixes immensely, and am grateful to have them. That being said, I have the set on the way from Amazon UK. I'm trying to decide whether to send it back unopened or not. I may just have to schedule a trip to my friends house to decide.

Also; is the 5.1 in DTS?

 

[rtbluray]

Does anyone have anything positive to say about this set? I have a friend who says it sounds great and he can hear things in the recording that he had not heard before. So I'm getting conflicting opinions here. I know our small community can be brutal on mixes that are not super discrete. I also prefer a Steven Wilson mix to say a Richard Chycki (Rush), or James Guthrie (Pink Floyd) mix. However I still enjoy those mixes immensely, and am grateful to have them. That being said, I have the set on the way from Amazon UK. I'm trying to decide whether to send it back unopened or not. I may just have to schedule a trip to my friends house to decide.

Also; is the 5.1 in DTS?

The 5.1 mix is DTS & Dubly
I have absolutely no regrets about buying this set.
Yes, this 5.1 mix is really not discrete at all, but I actually do like the way the new mixes sound (both in stereo & surround)
There is a greater degree of clarity between the instruments and the vocals that was missing on the original stereo mix, plus I also love the extended intro on "The Actor".
There's also a lot of great video footage on DVD 2 as well, so yeah this is a very good set if you are a Moody Blues fan. It's just not a great set if you are only in it for the surround sound (or lack thereof...)

 

[jimfisheye]

Does anyone have anything positive to say about this set? I have a friend who says it sounds great and he can hear things in the recording that he had not heard before. So I'm getting conflicting opinions here. I know our small community can be brutal on mixes that are not super discrete. I also prefer a Steven Wilson mix to say a Richard Chycki (Rush), or James Guthrie (Pink Floyd) mix. However I still enjoy those mixes immensely, and am grateful to have them. That being said, I have the set on the way from Amazon UK. I'm trying to decide whether to send it back unopened or not. I may just have to schedule a trip to my friends house to decide.

Also; is the 5.1 in DTS?

I've heard some CD copies of things before that have been pretty stepped on (as some of them are). If you were comparing this to one of those, perhaps it could be an upgrade? It has to be something like that going on though. Surround mix and discreteness completely aside... the fidelity on this set is really shockingly poor. Makes the original sound just golden next to it. I haven't heard even a lowly CD release that sounded this lo-fi before though (but I haven't compared them all).

I get it. Tapes degrade past the point of no return sometimes. If that happened here... A vinyl rip professionally done from a first pressing would blow this crap out of the water! There's just no excuse to release something like this. The multitracks (pre the last 4 track reduction) may be lost. That 4 track reduction master may be unsalvageable now. But it's not like every vinyl pressing has been lost!

Maybe this set is just a novelty collectors edition and not a definitive release for the audio? Digging for an explanation/excuse but that doesn't really hold up.

The artwork and packaging looks nice. The inclusion of bonus material like the videos is a nice completist thing. Someone who truly never heard the original and ended up with a low bit rate mp3 at some point might be happy with this. No one that listens to anywhere near a hi-fi system would think this release was OK though. It's in your face lo-fi. Not subtle at all. This isn't a volume war damaged master either. No brick wall limiting with bionic levels and treble turned up to 11. The complete opposite actually. Really weak obscured lo-fi sound.

Now if there was something of merit going on with the surround mix despite the fidelity issue you could discuss trading off the fidelity of the original for that. But there's absolutely nothing there either.

If this is truly an upgrade for someone... alright.
But wow, what on Earth happened to whatever copy you were listening to before then?!

Trying to listen to this reminds me of trying to listen to the stepped on copy of the Q8 of Imagine that made the rounds before the recent reissue. It's pretty much that level of lo-fi sound and that level of lack of anything surround going on.

bla bla bla...
Try it yourself! Put up any CD release of this next to this version. It will be obvious even on laptop speakers!

 

[GOS]

Here's the DR for the multi-channel.

foobar2000 1.4 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2018-11-04 10:32:56

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: The Moody Blues / In Search Of The Lost Chord
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR9 -4.81 dB -20.18 dB 0:45 01/12-Departure
DR11 -4.59 dB -18.88 dB 3:39 02/12-Ride My See-Saw
DR12 -1.19 dB -19.50 dB 2:59 03/12-Dr. Livingstone, I Presume
DR12 -1.18 dB -20.51 dB 4:12 04/12-House Of Four Doors
DR11 -0.08 dB -17.49 dB 6:37 05/12-Legend Of A Mind
DR12 -2.50 dB -20.89 dB 1:47 06/12-House Of Four Doors (Part Two)
DR13 -7.52 dB -26.54 dB 3:29 07/12-Voices In The Sky
DR10 -5.72 dB -22.22 dB 3:15 08/12-The Best Way To Travel
DR11 -4.61 dB -22.47 dB 4:13 09/12-Visions Of Paradise
DR10 -5.54 dB -21.84 dB 4:56 10/12-The Actor
DR12 -5.70 dB -29.91 dB 0:49 11/12-The Word
DR10 -4.91 dB -20.90 dB 5:46 12/12-Om
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR11

Samplerate: 96000 Hz
Channels: 6
Bits per sample: 24
Bitrate: 6765 kbps
Codec: FLAC
================================================================================

 

[GOS]

Here's the DR for the multi-channel.

foobar2000 1.4 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2018-11-04 10:32:56

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: The Moody Blues / In Search Of The Lost Chord
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR9 -4.81 dB -20.18 dB 0:45 01/12-Departure
DR11 -4.59 dB -18.88 dB 3:39 02/12-Ride My See-Saw
DR12 -1.19 dB -19.50 dB 2:59 03/12-Dr. Livingstone, I Presume
DR12 -1.18 dB -20.51 dB 4:12 04/12-House Of Four Doors
DR11 -0.08 dB -17.49 dB 6:37 05/12-Legend Of A Mind
DR12 -2.50 dB -20.89 dB 1:47 06/12-House Of Four Doors (Part Two)
DR13 -7.52 dB -26.54 dB 3:29 07/12-Voices In The Sky
DR10 -5.72 dB -22.22 dB 3:15 08/12-The Best Way To Travel
DR11 -4.61 dB -22.47 dB 4:13 09/12-Visions Of Paradise
DR10 -5.54 dB -21.84 dB 4:56 10/12-The Actor
DR12 -5.70 dB -29.91 dB 0:49 11/12-The Word
DR10 -4.91 dB -20.90 dB 5:46 12/12-Om
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR11

Samplerate: 96000 Hz
Channels: 6
Bits per sample: 24
Bitrate: 6765 kbps
Codec: FLAC
================================================================================

And here is the new 2018 2 channel mix with DR's.

foobar2000 1.4 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2018-11-04 11:41:14

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: The Moody Blues / In Search of the Lost Chord- 50th Anniversary Edition
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR9 -2.55 dB -15.70 dB 0:45 01-Departure
DR9 -0.10 dB -10.53 dB 3:39 02-Ride My See-Saw
DR10 -0.10 dB -13.50 dB 2:59 03-Dr. Livingstone I Presume
DR9 -0.10 dB -12.71 dB 4:12 04-House Of Four Doors
DR8 -0.10 dB -10.85 dB 6:37 05-Legend Of A Mind
DR11 -0.10 dB -14.07 dB 1:47 06-House Of Four Doors - Part 2
DR12 -0.10 dB -16.58 dB 3:29 07-Voices In The Sky
DR10 -0.10 dB -13.22 dB 3:15 08-The Best Way To Travel
DR11 -0.93 dB -15.75 dB 4:13 09-Visions Of Paradise
DR9 -0.10 dB -12.58 dB 4:56 10-The Actor
DR14 -5.28 dB -22.76 dB 0:49 11-The Word
DR10 -0.10 dB -13.54 dB 5:46 12-Om
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR10

Samplerate: 96000 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 24
Bitrate: 2895 kbps
Codec: FLAC
================================================================================

 

[fizzywiggs41]

Anyone that says anything like that has probably never done any mixing before.
Jakko is a good mixing engineer IMHO but a lot of the shortcomings of some of these mixes of his fall beyond his control.

For example I hate the Bruford 5.1 DVDs but a lot of that has to do with the awful Dolby Digital encoding. I’m sure if I heard those remixes in either DTS or lossless files I would probably like them more.
Also he’s had to overcome some serious technical limitations with the Jethro Tull live multi tracks and many people seem to like those mixes.
I don’t really know what happened with “Karn Evil 9 3rd Impression”. It might have been his fault or maybe something screwy happened afterwards during the mastering stage.

Jakko is definitely not the greatest mixing engineer but he’s far from awful. “THRAK” is amazing, and “Fish Out Of Water”, “Trilogy”, and (most of ) “Brain Salad Surgery” are all very good too IMHO.
Plus a newer album like “A Scarcity of Miracles” is also exquisite in surround sound too.

Now yes some of his mixing is a little rough around the edges (especially when you compare to some of the original stereo mixes) and some might prefer another mixing engineer tackle some of these albums instead of Jakko but I’m hard pressed to think of another mixing engineer who would take these albums on, especially the specialty Yes solo records.

In the case of “In Search of the Lost Chord” it sounds like the limitations of the multitrack tapes are a very real issue with this album. From what I have heard it really does sound like the multitrack tapes are mostly two tracks of group (instruments) and two tracks of vocals so what can you really do with that from a surround sound perspective?

Now I wish they had been more forthcoming about the mix cause it did sound like this was a brand new mix from the multi tracks which it mostly is except that the multi tracks themselves do not make for an immersive experience.

Also, I’ve heard people complain about the difference in fidelity between songs. The new mixes definitely sound a lot cleaner to my ears. This album has always been the worst sounding of the classic 7 IMHO. I always described the original mix as very murky and unclear so it was cool to hear some more fidelity and clarity in these newer mixes.

This is far from the best surround mix I have ever heard but it’s also not the worst either (I can listen to this more than Mansun for example)

A poll is forthcoming and I’m planning on a ‘7’ right now

Well said Ryan .

I might add Jakko has done some stellar work with "live " recordings in surround as well as studio.
I'm of course referring to the live 5.1 sets on the Jethro Tull books , and the mix of "Thick As A Brick one and two in Iceland "

Anyway I will reserve my judgement until I actually hear this mix , myself .
I find too many people on QQ are overly critical, and expect a high degree of exellence on these mixes of dated material.



Oh and regarding "manipulation "-a quick check and I found-that term is used on all the multi Moodies SACD's except Childrens.

 

[Clint Eastwood]

Well said Ryan .

I might add Jakko has done some stellar work with "live " recordings in surround as well as studio.
I'm of course referring to the live 5.1 sets on the Jethro Tull books , and the mix of "Thick As A Brick one and two in Iceland "

Anyway I will reserve my judgement until I actually hear this mix , myself .
I find too many people on QQ are overly critical, and expect a high degree of exellence on these mixes of dated material.



Oh and regarding "manipulation "-a quick check and I found-that term is used on all the multi Moodies SACD's except Childrens.

I think the manipulation might be aimed at the buyer...you know how you buy some items and its says "some assembly required" and then lists what's missing...well maybe the "assembly required" is software enhancement software and they just didn't want to list audacity and the hours it will take to fix it...in regards to people being overly critical...I agree...but there are also some that just can't accept the fact that their favorite album doesn't sound very good...after hearing this title I would say that the critics on here have been very tame in comparison to other titles on here that I have witnessed...and to be candid...IMO. .they were much better sounding than this one...it all balances out in the end..and as long as it sounds good to the person who purchases it...then it's all good

 

[fizzywiggs41]

I think the manipulation might be aimed at the buyer...you know how you buy some items and its says "some assembly required" and then lists what's missing...well maybe the "assembly required" is software enhancement software and they just didn't want to list audacity and the hours it will take to fix it...in regards to people being overly critical...I agree...but there are also some that just can't accept the fact that their favorite album doesn't sound very good...after hearing this title I would say that the critics on here have been very tame in comparison to other titles on here that I have witnessed...and to be candid...IMO. .they were much better sounding than this one...it all balances out in the end..and as long as it sounds good to the person who purchases it...then it's all good

Good points Clint.
For me though I can't understand why anyone who's ordered this set for the surround , would want to return it without first giving it a listen.
Oh well it's their money .

I suppose the word "manipulation" is the standard terminology for all newly mixed Moodies 5.1 and quad re-issues , so nothing to fear really .

 

[Juggsnelson]

Just got home and found this had been delivered. Not much time to get through it all right now, but Legend of a Mind is one of my favorite tunes all time. Playing the 5.1 mix of it now. As others stated, nothing discrete going on here. Now time for the new stereo mix. Some cool panning L/R on the flute solo and the ethereal backing vocals during the second verse. Don't remember if those were always there Or not. I'll have to compare later to the SACD and the original US LP. Surround very disappointing mix wise but I thought it sounded ok fidelity wise. Stereo mix sounded pretty good to me but again, have to back to back it with the SACD and LP later. Book is nice and contains all previous bonus tracks plus some additional single masters. DVD nice to have too. Not a total washout yet. Hopefully the new stereo mix impresses later tonight.

 

[rtbluray]

Let me clear up exactly what is meant by 'manipulation' in each instance.

For the 6 Moody Blues Multichannel SACDs (along with the "Timeless Flight" and "Days of Future Passed" 50th anniversary DVDs) the 'manipulation' being referred to here is the summing of all 4 Quadraphonic channels at low levels into both the center and LFE channels to 'create' a 5.1 surround mix. Those added channels are so faint you can barely hear them (even when they are isolated) and once you shut them off you have the Quadraphonic mix.

For "In Search of the Lost Chord" the 'manipulation' being referred to here would have to be the 'upmixing' of the three songs which did not have available multitrack tapes (which would be "Dr Livingstone I Presume", "Legend of a Mind", and "Om")

There may be more going on in each instance than this, but this is basically what it all boils down to.

 

[Juggsnelson]

Let me clear up exactly what is meant by 'manipulation' in each instance.

For the 6 Moody Blues Multichannel SACDs (along with the "Timeless Flight" and "Days of Future Passed" 50th anniversary DVDs) the 'manipulation' being referred to here is the summing of all 4 Quadraphonic channels at low levels into both the center and LFE channels to 'create' a 5.1 surround mix. Those added channels are so faint you can barely hear them (even when they are isolated) and once you shut them off you have the Quadraphonic mix.

For "In Search of the Lost Chord" the 'manipulation' being referred to here would have to be the 'upmixing' of the three songs which did not have available multitrack tapes (which would be "Dr Livingstone I Presume", "Legend of a Mind", and "Om")

There may be more going on in each instance than this, but this is basically what it all boils down to.

So is there a more immersive 5.1 mix to be found on the tracks other than the three that were upmixed?

 

[rtbluray]

So is there a more immersive 5.1 mix to be found on the tracks other than the three that were upmixed?

No but that apparently has to do with the lack of separation on the original multitrack tapes.
Someone had said on here a while back that the multitrack for ISOTLC is basically two tracks of group (instruments) and two tracks of vocals, so if that's the case (and after listening to the 5.1 mix I believe that is true) then what kind of truly immersive experience can be created from a multitrack like that?

This is definitely NOT a typical Jakko 5.1 mix. All of his other 5.1 mixes are very discrete (just check out "THRAK", "Fish Out Of Water", and the ELP mixes for examples of that) so I can only surmise that the limitations of the original multitrack tapes proved too difficult for him to truly create an immersive and discrete mix for this album.

 

[Juggsnelson]

No but that apparently has to do with the lack of separation on the original multitrack tapes.
Someone had said on here a while back that the multitrack for ISOTLC is basically two tracks of group (instruments) and two tracks of vocals, so if that's the case (and after listening to the 5.1 mix I believe that is true) then what kind of truly immersive experience can be created from a multitrack like that?

This is definitely NOT a typical Jakko 5.1 mix. All of his other 5.1 mixes are very discrete (just check out "THRAK", "Fish Out Of Water", and the ELP mixes for examples of that) so I can only surmise that the limitations of the original multitrack tapes proved too difficult for him to truly create an immersive and discrete mix for this album.

I think you are correct. I have all of those other Jakko mixes you mention and they are good to very good.

 

[ar surround]

Does anyone have anything positive to say about this set? I have a friend who says it sounds great and he can hear things in the recording that he had not heard before. So I'm getting conflicting opinions here. I know our small community can be brutal on mixes that are not super discrete. I also prefer a Steven Wilson mix to say a Richard Chycki (Rush), or James Guthrie (Pink Floyd) mix. However I still enjoy those mixes immensely, and am grateful to have them. That being said, I have the set on the way from Amazon UK. I'm trying to decide whether to send it back unopened or not. I may just have to schedule a trip to my friends house to decide.

Also; is the 5.1 in DTS?

Yes. This afternoon I listened carefully to the new stereo remix (96/24) and compared it to the SACD. In comparison, the SACD sounds bloated with a very flat sound stage albeit a bit smoother. The new stereo remix has better tonal balance, detail and a three dimensional sound stage that comes out from the speakers. In fact, I am so impressed with Jakko's stereo remix that I will probably rate this set highly in the poll. I don't know why they even bothered to fudge a 5.1 mix given all the hurtles to overcome. If you like this album as much as I do, you may very likely make this new stereo mix your go-to production. Oh yes, and there's the beautiful extended intro to The Actor.

 

[Clint Eastwood]

Good points Clint.
For me though I can't understand why anyone who's ordered this set for the surround , would want to return it without first giving it a listen.
Oh well it's their money .

I suppose the word "manipulation" is the standard terminology for all newly mixed Moodies 5.1 and quad re-issues , so nothing to fear really .

I think this is a unique situation...I can't remember having all these important titles being released in such a short time span...because of the cost involved...many will have to choose what titles they want if they can't buy them all...so when you see one title that is receiving negative opinions that makes the selection process that much easier and returning or cancelling an order seems a prudent "financial" option...

 

[Clint Eastwood]

Yes. This afternoon I listened carefully to the new stereo remix (96/24) and compared it to the SACD. In comparison, the SACD sounds bloated with a very flat sound stage albeit a bit smoother. The new stereo remix has better tonal balance, detail and a three dimensional sound stage that comes out from the speakers. In fact, I am so impressed with Jakko's stereo remix that I will probably rate this set highly in the poll. I don't know why they even bothered to fudge a 5.1 mix given all the hurtles to overcome. If you like this album as much as I do, you may very likely make this new stereo mix your go-to production. Oh yes, and there's the beautiful extended intro to The Actor.

First I want the members to know that I PM'd ar surround before I made this post and let him know I was going to post it... so it doesn't appear that I am attacking him...because I'm not...I just have a point to convey...it's not about him...it's about the notion that it is a good idea to rate a title highly on a SURROUND poll when the rating is achieved with the stereo portion...not the surround mix...although I got frustrated with the poll system on here...I still care about it and IMO it's one of the great assets on the forum...it's the main reason I joined instead of continuing to lurk...I have noticed that the polls have morphed into things that aren't really relevant to the actual surround sound of a title like how many extras are included and the infamous "value" for the cost....it's not a blue light special poll it's a surround music poll...

One could advance the argument that box sets are different and are a sum of it's parts...hence all the trinkets and marbles and rings and extras are a part of that...and it's human nature to want to reward a title for how inexpensive it is...but here is the problem I have...people that look at these polls often don't read all the posts where someone might explain their high rating...let's say I just looked at this title that has a bunch of sevens...eights and nines..and maybe a brave soul or two might give it a ten...that person might think he/she is getting an excellent surround mix...when I looked at the polls I considered everything from 7 to 10 a viable purchase...without knowing the high rating was achieved due to the STEREO mix...I would be upset and wouldn't consider the polls very credible...very few people read all the pages on some of these older poll threads...there are some long ones..

That's all...some food for thought and hopefully some will consider that going forward...I have no vested interest in the polls anymore but I would hope some of the other members that are active in the polls consider my points

 

[JonUrban]

I think we have to stop taking it personally if we don't like a release. They all can't be Quadio's or SW masterpieces. Like I said earlier, we would complain if there were no surround mix included with the box, and we would (and are) complain(ing) with a sub-standard surround mix included in the box.

If we don't like it, don't get it. Send it back if you can. But there's no reason to get all fired up, it's just a release that won't meet expectations. Heck, THAT's never happened before, right?

 

[skherbeck]

How wonderful life would be if they WERE all Quadios and SW masterpieces

 

[Clint Eastwood]

I think we have to stop taking it personally if we don't like a release. They all can't be Quadio's or SW masterpieces. Like I said earlier, we would complain if there were no surround mix included with the box, and we would (and are) complain(ing) with a sub-standard surround mix included in the box.

If we don't like it, don't get it. Send it back if you can. But there's no reason to get all fired up, it's just a release that won't meet expectations. Heck, THAT's never happened before, right?

Just to clarify...if you are talking about me...I'm not fired up at all I just hope the guy I sold mine to on Ebay isn't fired up when he hears it....just wanted to mention something I thought was important....that's all...

 

[JonUrban]

Just to clarify...if you are talking about me...I'm not fired up at all I just hope the guy I sold mine to on Ebay isn't fired up when he hears it....just wanted to mention something I thought was important....that's all...

No. Totally generic, not you. You know how things get carried away around here...............