NOW tell me Sony are not full of Shit!

[Manmc]

Chris' tireless pro anything Sony-based bobbing up and down on numerous threads here is becoming , well , rather tiresome .

When it comes to 'Music' 'looking at things in the long term' should come a definite 2nd to listening now . I have at least one Dvd-A which has a dolby 5.1 /Dvd-A 5.1 /Dvd-A 2.0 and CD and downloadable AAC audio files as well as bonus tracks. I dont believe Sacd can do anything that Dvd-A cant. The thing is though , music companies are so stupid that discs like that are extremely rare and therefore their marketing possibilities are zip. What was possible with the format (s) was never fully explored.

Similarly, why the hell should anyone be expected to invest in the 'long term' possibilities of Bluray ? 7.1 sound is also possible on Hd-Dvd . How soon or how often it will ever appear is another question . With Sd-Dvd , multiple cuts of the movie was possible ( a la T2 Dvd-18 disc ) . Look through your movie collection , and how many others offered this 'feature' ? Not many . Multiple re-releases generate more profits than intelligent use of the format's capacity .

As Neil's 'ball game' analogy illustrates , companies like Sony ( the OT ) are quite prepared to see the ' bigger , long term picture' and invent new formats simply to spoil the pitch and waste a fortune of enthusiasts money with little or no intention of following through on their promises.

~M~

 

[atrocity]

You're not going to get mass acceptance of the new HD formats until players come out that are less than $200 and play both formats.

And even that might not help if audio's history offers any clues as to video's future. Under-$200 DVD-A/SACD players are plentiful right now, but...

In fact, I wonder if this is going to be a weird case where the hardware stays available for a long time simply because the everything-on-a-single-chip stuff is already so cheap.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

Chris' tireless pro anything Sony-based bobbing up and down on numerous threads here is becoming , well , rather tiresome .

When it comes to 'Music' 'looking at things in the long term' should come a definite 2nd to listening now . I have at least one Dvd-A which has a dolby 5.1 /Dvd-A 5.1 /Dvd-A 2.0 and CD and downloadable AAC audio files as well as bonus tracks. I dont believe Sacd can do anything that Dvd-A cant. The thing is though , music companies are so stupid that discs like that are extremely rare and therefore their marketing possibilities are zip. What was possible with the format (s) was never fully explored.

Similarly, why the hell should anyone be expected to invest in the 'long term' possibilities of Bluray ? 7.1 sound is also possible on Hd-Dvd . How soon or how often it will ever appear is another question . With Sd-Dvd , multiple cuts of the movie was possible ( a la T2 Dvd-18 disc ) . Look through your movie collection , and how many others offered this 'feature' ? Not many . Multiple re-releases generate more profits than intelligent use of the format's capacity .

As Neil's 'ball game' analogy illustrates , companies like Sony ( the OT ) are quite prepared to see the ' bigger , long term picture' and invent new formats simply to spoil the pitch and waste a fortune of enthusiasts money with little or no intention of following through on their promises.

~M~

I don't even own a Sony Blu-ray player and don't own a Sony SACD player. I have nothing against Sony and I don't believe the nonsense about Sony killing surround. I believe Sony tries to make decisions that will result in greater sales, not lesser sales. I am sure Sony has made some market blunders and their financial condition has suffered as a result. The market for DVD-A and SACD has bombed, and I don't see how Sony caused that. Sony didn't support VHS at first and that didn't stop VHS from being a success. Sony gave in and supported VHS and sold millions of VHS VCR's. The same would have happened here if DVD-A had been a success. I don't know what will happen with Blu-ray, but I can see what has happened with DVD-A. I always look at things long-term and ignore short term issues when it comes to this hobby. I have seen too many formats come and go to be concerned with a short term issue about whether or not we can squeeze one or two more DVD-A releases out of Warner or some other company. If Warner is looking at releasing on Blu-ray, I am going to be excited about that possiblity. Unfortunately, I know it won't happen anytime soon so I am hopeful it will happen in a few years.

If the great Sony SACD releases of Dylan albums had been a success and the other great Sony surround releases had sold well, I am confident Sony would have continued and done even better. Unfortunately the titles didn't sell, I bought them and love them, but the market disagreed. The losses mounted and Sony bailed, it seems just that simple to me.

Chris

 

[soundboy]

The losses mounted and Sony bailed, it seems just that simple to me.

Not completely....Sony BMG has a number of Living Stereo and Red Seal classical SACDs announced for release next month. Yes, Sony has stopped issuing pop/rock SACD titles, but I think that's indicative of buying pattern of pop/rock music buyers. What's Sony supposed to do? Flood the market with single-inventory hybrid SACDs? That will take enormous amount of money to set up the manufacturing capability, couple that with consumers who don't care for sound quality, it's no wonder Sony stopped issuing pop/rock SACDs.

 

[bmoura]

You're not going to get mass acceptance of the new HD formats until players come out that are less than $200 and play both formats. The average person can't afford it now. They also won't pay more than what regular DVD's cost now.

Agreed. I doubt many will buy Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs at $29 and $35 when the standard DVD editions are significantly less expensive.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

Not completely....Sony BMG has a number of Living Stereo and Red Seal classical SACDs announced for release next month. Yes, Sony has stopped issuing pop/rock SACD titles, but I think that's indicative of buying pattern of pop/rock music buyers. What's Sony supposed to do? Flood the market with single-inventory hybrid SACDs? That will take enormous amount of money to set up the manufacturing capability, couple that with consumers who don't care for sound quality, it's no wonder Sony stopped issuing pop/rock SACDs.

I forget about classical releases on SACD. I have quite a few and they are good. That segment of the music market certainly accepted SACD.

John Legend has a concert Blu-ray in lossless 5.1 PCM. There are a few releases like this so we are seeing some music on the new format. Here is a link and the reviews I have read are great:

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/legendjohnliveatthehouseofblues.html

He is a really good R&B singer and apparently a fan of surround. The Nine Inch Nails release was relatively well received as was the Ramsey Lewis Blu-ray. I will see if I can get my hands of the John Legend disc, I may just rent it. The chances for music will likely have to start with live performances and if those are a success, surely some studio albums will follow.

I don't think mass market and low prices are in the cards for Blu-ray so if what everybody wants is price comparable to CD, then I am afraid there really isn't any chance. If we are willing to pay a premium for Blu-ray, then there may be a chance. Maybe the market waits for low Blu-ray prices and that never comes and we have another format in the graveyard, that isn't the least likely scenario I guess. $200 players aren't likely before 2009 if ever would be my guess.

Chris

 

[Dylan Berichon]

I forget about classical releases on SACD. I have quite a few and they are good. That segment of the music market certainly accepted SACD.

John Legend has a concert Blu-ray in lossless 5.1 PCM. There are a few releases like this so we are seeing some music on the new format. Here is a link and the reviews I have read are great:

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/legendjohnliveatthehouseofblues.html

He is a really good R&B singer and apparently a fan of surround. The Nine Inch Nails release was relatively well received as was the Ramsey Lewis Blu-ray. I will see if I can get my hands of the John Legend disc, I may just rent it. The chances for music will likely have to start with live performances and if those are a success, surely some studio albums will follow.

I don't think mass market and low prices are in the cards for Blu-ray so if what everybody wants is price comparable to CD, then I am afraid there really isn't any chance. If we are willing to pay a premium for Blu-ray, then there may be a chance. Maybe the market waits for low Blu-ray prices and that never comes and we have another format in the graveyard, that isn't the least likely scenario I guess. $200 players aren't likely before 2009 if ever would be my guess.

Chris

The John Legend SACD is excellent as well, if I may say so.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

The John Legend SACD is excellent as well, if I may say so.

I have that album in Dolby Digital 5.1 on a DualDisc and it is a great album, the guy is talented and an artist with respect for the great R&B singers that came before him. I didn't know the album was available on SACD at the time of my purchase, or that would have been my choice.

Chris

 

[bmoura]

The John Legend SACD is excellent as well, if I may say so.

I was just going to mention that. John Legend fans shouldn't forget his "Get Lifted" Surround Sound SACD from Sony Music.

See http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=17563140 for the High Fidelity Review write-up on that one.

 

[Guy Robinson]

Nobody in real life I know gives a hoot about SACD/DVD-A. I have discussed both of these formats with dozens and dozens of friends and family members and I have always been the one to start the discussion and it never lasts long and nobody cares.Chris

I have 3 friends that went out and bought a surround system after hearing mine.

 

[Guy Robinson]

The future for Blu-ray isn't known yet.

Chris

I would personally not buy Blu-ray just because it is Sony and I am sick of them. Maybe HD but NOT Blu-ray.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

I would personally not buy Blu-ray just because it is Sony and I am sick of them. Maybe HD but NOT Blu-ray.

I see that comment a lot, I wish I didn't. HD DVD is a great format, but redundant formats can't be good and I am afraid the market is going to settle on dual format players as the solution. If that means anything other than niche market status for both and a poor software selection for both, I would be surprised. Blu-ray does have much higher capacity and bitrate potential, but that isn't likely to matter as it regards the format war.

I might suggest you inquire into Toshiba criminal and civil court cases if you would consider liking Toshiba less than Sony. I really can't think of any corporation with a worse record than Toshiba in that regard.

Chris

 

[JonUrban]

I think the fact that the new Panasonic Blu-Ray player does DVD-Audio is a big plus for any QQ member thinking of trying one of the HD Video formats. I don't think that there is a current HD-DVD model out there that does SACD or DVD-A.

It's too bad the Panasonic did not do SACD as well. If it did, it would be a must buy here. I may end up with one anyway at this point.

 

[timbre4]

>>>I have discussed both of these formats with dozens and dozens of friends and family members and I have always been the one to start the discussion and it never lasts long and nobody cares.<<<

This could repeat itself with Blu-Ray and HD-DVD.

People love standard DVD and now seeing it upconverted on an HDTV they love it even more. Does an HD disc look that much better for them to pony up for the player and re-buy their discs? At these prices and selection, no.

This stagnation will continue indefinitely until that magic critical mass moment happens: player prices, movie selection and consumer awareness.

DVD was the industry's most successful product launch because the stars lined up in every conceivable way. Single format and a strong organization sending a unified message cannot be stressed enough.

Every launch since (except the iPod) has been flawed somehow. Dueling HD formats right out of the gate, remains the elephant in the room. Potential $4 gas looming doesn't help either.

 

[El Guapo]

Does an HD disc look that much better for them to pony up for the player and re-buy their discs? At these prices and selection, no.

That really depends on your display! If you are watching from a normal viewing distance on a 32 inch screen, then I would say don't bother! The difference is not that huge between HD(-DVD in my case) and upconverted DVD (I have to point out, though that my Samsung LCD TV has only a resolution of 1366x768).

However, if you have a home theatre setup like I have with a FullHD projector and a screen width of 213cm (which is equivalent to an 97 inch screen at an aspect ratio of 16:9) this is a whole new ball game! The detail - compared to upscaled DVD is nothing but amazing!

And the Dolby TrueHD tracks that can be found on many HD-DVDs is stunning! Look at the rave reviews in the sound department the HD-DVD release of the Matrix trilogy is getting! :banana:

So where does this leave us? I'm afraid still in the niche market of home theatre enthusiasts; the advantage the average joe gets on his TV set in the living room is just not apparant enough.

Best regards,
Oliver

 

[Chris Gerhard]

>>>I have discussed both of these formats with dozens and dozens of friends and family members and I have always been the one to start the discussion and it never lasts long and nobody cares.<<<

This could repeat itself with Blu-Ray and HD-DVD.

People love standard DVD and now seeing it upconverted on an HDTV they love it even more. Does an HD disc look that much better for them to pony up for the player and re-buy their discs? At these prices and selection, no.

This stagnation will continue indefinitely until that magic critical mass moment happens: player prices, movie selection and consumer awareness.

DVD was the industry's most successful product launch because the stars lined up in every conceivable way. Single format and a strong organization sending a unified message cannot be stressed enough.

Every launch since (except the iPod) has been flawed somehow. Dueling HD formats right out of the gate, remains the elephant in the room. Potential $4 gas looming doesn't help either.

Of course you are right, they don't care once again when I discuss the new formats. My girlfriend is such a sweetheart to put up with the nonsense and she does listen to my talk and sits through demos and does appreciate the fact I like the stuff. I agree with your comments. I can only hope Blu-ray or HD DVD succeeds somehow but the start is far from promising.

chris

 

[Chris Gerhard]

I think the fact that the new Panasonic Blu-Ray player does DVD-Audio is a big plus for any QQ member thinking of trying one of the HD Video formats. I don't think that there is a current HD-DVD model out there that does SACD or DVD-A.

It's too bad the Panasonic did not do SACD as well. If it did, it would be a must buy here. I may end up with one anyway at this point.

Panasonic has never made an SACD player and that is too bad. Samsung still might provide a true universal Blu-ray/HD DVD/DVD-A/SACD/DVD-V/CD player, but that is just wild speculation at this point. I don't think this Panasonic player will ever decode DTS-HD MA, only the DTS core. Fox is the only company to release DTS-HD MA so far to the best of my knowledge. It will decode Dolby TrueHD. I will say I have been delighted with just the core DTS on the Fox movies I have watched. I don't believe it has HDMI 1.3 either so be careful you get everything you want and need. Waiting right now is not a bad choice if you think you could miss out on something. Apparently having the player decode Dolby TrueHD and output lossless PCM over HDMI is the preferred method. If you are unsure of any of it, let me know and I can provide some links and lots of boring information to read.

Chris

 

[Chris Gerhard]

I have 3 friends that went out and bought a surround system after hearing mine.

Well, you may have a lot more friends than I do. You are doing over a billion times better than I am (3-0) in that regard .

Chris

 

[neil wilkes]

And the Dolby TrueHD tracks that can be found on many HD-DVDs is stunning! Look at the rave reviews in the sound department the HD-DVD release of the Matrix trilogy is getting! :banana:

This is my entire *point* about DVD-Audio!!!
Dolby True HD = MLP Lossless.
Now - imagine how well DVD-A would have done if it had the same amount of promotion as this white elephant.
(Notice Sony do not use DSD on Blu Ray?)

 

[Chris Gerhard]

I would personally not buy Blu-ray just because it is Sony and I am sick of them. Maybe HD but NOT Blu-ray.

According to this discussion at Home Theater Forum which I haven't read completely, Amazon.com should have the Toshiba HD-A2 at $220 (maybe $177) this weekend with an instant rebate. It doesn't do 1080p and doesn't have analog 5.1 audio output so avoid it if you have a display that accepts 1080p or need analog audio output. I think it even comes with 5 HD DVD's but reading this link should explain the details.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?t=256634

Chris