NOW tell me Sony are not full of Shit!

[solaris]

I don't think we're so special here. I think many people would love 5.1 music if they knew it existed. I have met music fans that put a good deal of money into thier music, but they just have never heard of SACD and DVD-Audio, they did have the most expensive iPods you could buy. Sacd and DVD-Audio never were promoted in a way that things need to be promoted to succeed.
http://www.salambazar.com/photoblog...33&PHPSESSID=7b61c9c3ec7e5ea66507dd5bfa55058d

 

[leevitalone1]

I quote this from the Bjork website.
It is difficult to tell what is quoted from Derek Birkett at One Little Indian, and what is quoted from Hoffman.

This is seriously bad.
It looks like the industry is trying to FORCE Blu Ray/HD DVD.
Address all letters of complaint to the address in the quote.

What has - again - been "overlooked" (some might say completely ignored) is that DVD-A/V plays on ALL DVD players. See Vespertine & Medulla for this.
Additionally, why are we essentially being told we cannot have High Resolution?
It's all bollocks and industry politics IMHO.
WHY are the labels allowing the distribution to dictate release formats?

It's bloody pathetic.

Hmmmmm sounds to am as though someone is a very greedy little - - - - www.becausesoundmatters.com www.acousticsounds.com "saving the world from bad sound!"

 

[Guy Robinson]

According to this discussion at Home Theater Forum which I haven't read completely, Amazon.com should have the Toshiba HD-A2 at $220 (maybe $177) this weekend with an instant rebate. It doesn't do 1080p and doesn't have analog 5.1 audio output so avoid it if you have a display that accepts 1080p or need analog audio output. I think it even comes with 5 HD DVD's but reading this link should explain the details.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?t=256634

Chris

Thanks for the tip Chris but I am a long way away from buying either of the 2 HD formats. Maybe never.......

 

[BARKSTAR]

Neil Wilkes just a quick question. When I posted my comments across that were on this thread you answered back quite abruptly. What is it that causes you to answer back like this on many threads?? Everytime someone seems to like anything to do with SACD or Sony etc you just seem to lose the plot. They are only an individuals opinion just like your own so I don't see why things seem to get so heated.

I personally am a huge fan of Sony. I have many of their products and have been very happy with the quality of many of them. And a number of the formats they have produced, whether successful or not, have been fantastic. I think SACD was a great idea, and although it may not have been developed for the love of the music as you say but for the corporate dollars (which is more often than not true) I have had a great experience in purchasing music in the format. It is not that I follow everything they do and buy only their formats exclusively but I do believe they make good products. To me SACD was the way to go over DVD-Audio but again that is only my opinion. It's not I wanted DVD-Audio to fail at all as like I said I own music in that format as well. To me it is all about the experience we get through what we are buying. I couldn't give a damn if it was on DVD-Audio or SACD, if I wanted it I would buy it.

And when it came to you saying Blu-Ray and HD-DVD were VIDEO and not AUDIO formats again why does this have to be the case?? I have many Blu-Ray advertisements that boast about High Definition video AND sound so how you get that they can be pushed as a video format only is a strange one to me. The problem with SACD and DVD-Audio is that you normally always needed new equipment or a more advanced set-up to get the compatibility or full benefit out of them. My point was that if you had released both Blu-Ray Video and Blu-Ray Audio discs from day one that are compatible with ALL players then this confusion of what can play and what can't etc would have been gone from consumers minds. They see the Blu-Ray logo and bang, they can take it home and enjoy it on their Blu-Ray disc player. No hassle, no fuss. I think a format like that could work and be for both video and sound.

My last point on Blu-Ray is like what Chris has been saying. I haven't went down the Blu-Ray route again because it is Sony's format. It's just when I looked at HD-DVD and realised that it didn't have the same capacity as Blu-Ray it just didn't come across as the format of choice for me. I think Blu-Ray has a great potential in all areas of technology and more clout as a future proof format. The extra storage capacity alone makes it the better choice for storage in the IT sector (200GB discs have already been tested, a number which HD-DVD could never reach). And when it comes to huge blockbusters like say a special edition 'Lord of the Rings', that extra 20GB of information space is sure going to come in handy for keeping bitrates high for both Audio and Video quality. To me HD-DVD is the format that will struggle in the long term. And if Toshiba had created Blu-Ray and Sony had created HD-DVD I would be saying the same thing. Blu-Ray to me is the disc format I would use to try to get everything High Definition off the ground and that includes movies and music albums. I don't care how this high quality surround sound music gets into my home format wise. I just hope it continues to happen so that passionate people like us can keep enjoying the experience.

 

[Manmc]

Maybe you'd like to pass on some of your breathtaking knowledge of all things Sony to the rest of us ? ( See , its not just Neil whos fed up with the lets-forget-everything-else-till-Sony-get-it-right-sub-section of society )

" To me SACD was the way to go over DVD-Audio but again that is only my opinion. "

And yet Neil's opinion causes you such angst This would be a good place to start. Perhaps you'd explain why the human race should stop doing what it was doing ( PCM ) and support a format (DSD) that even its creators havent supported as if they believed in it ?

" I think Blu-Ray has a great potential in all areas of technology and more clout as a future proof format. The extra storage capacity alone makes it the better choice for storage in the IT sector (200GB discs have already been tested, a number which HD-DVD could never reach) "

Here's another quote for you ; " Not everything that can be counted , counts , and not everything that counts can be counted "

Its interesting that 200gb discs have been tested when they havent even got
the 25/50 gb to perform reliably with Bd-J for example ( hence no BD 'Matrix ' boxset just yet )

Extra capacity is only an advantage if you use it correctly. IMO ( ) Bluray should have gone away for 5-8 years and come back as the replacement for Hd-Dvd when it could actually deliver on all its promises and 200gb recordable discs would really have been an improvement.

Preferably , though , if these companies had sat around a table and agreed on a format ( like Sd-Dvd ) would have made all these threads irrelevant and the immediate future , at least would have been mapped out.

~M~

 

[mattB2]

I've tried cheap entry points into both formats by using games machines to play the discs and I've come across problems with both systems. The XBox 360 had problems with menu navigation on some HD-DVD discs (to the point that some music titles refused to play beyond the FBI warning screens) but Microsoft seem to have fixed the problems with their last two system updates.

My Playstation 3 is connected via an optical cable to my Denon 3805 receiver for standard playback but the PS3 seems to be incapable of converting the hi-def sound without the soundtrack producing loud pops and bangs (some standard Dolby mixes play just fine but even then any previews on the disc with hi-def soundtracks cause problems). Quite why the PS3 should have this particular problem with the Denon receiver is beyond me as the Denon has never had any problems playing standard DTS or Dolby soundtracks from a variety of DVD players and hi-def satellite broadcasts.

The only solution offered by Sony thus far is to restrict my Blu-ray listening to stereo or buy a new receiver (next generation receivers seem to be very thin on the ground in the UK even if I had a spare £1,000 to enjoy the benefits of HD sound).

From an article in one of the UK's Playstation 3 magazines it seems as though the advent of the picture-in-picture Java technology is going to leave "early Blu-ray adopters with an inferior product" as "it is a little too difficult to incorporate into any firmware update".

As said above it looks as though Blu-ray has been introduced a little too early to get all the expected benefits of its greater capacity.

From my experience, given that current picture quality is about the same between the two formats, HD-DVD seems to win when comparing facilities like picture-in-picture and HD soundtracks. Blu-ray will doubtless catch up in the near future but it will be a real pain to have to replace discs and equipment to get the new facilities which were a selling point of the new formats. (I know that, like DVDs, "Ultimate" and other "special" editions are bound to come along anyway but it would have been nice if all this had been available when the format was launched.)

The clincher for me is that I can buy HD-DVDs from anywhere in the world without having to worry about Regional Coding so my Blu-ray purchases are limited to stuff that's "Blu-ray only" (usually at an exorbitant price). I just hope that, if Blu-ray does take off as a hi-res music medium, some bright spark doesn't think that Regional Coding of music is a good idea. (At the moment I'm just hoping that the new Springsteen Blu-ray disc isn't RC'd.)

 

[El Guapo]

Hi Chris,

Panasonic has never made an SACD player and that is too bad. Samsung still might provide a true universal Blu-ray/HD DVD/DVD-A/SACD/DVD-V/CD player, but that is just wild speculation at this point.

My money is on Denon. Over in the German home theatre forum "beisammen" there is sometimes talk about the ominous 3940, which according to important people at Denon that some members claim to know, is to be launched in spring or summer 2008 and which will be a multiplayer for both Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Of course no one never says anything about SACD and DVD-Audio, but I think Denon can not just release a 3940 which can play fewer formats than the 3930
Best regards,
Oliver

 

[JonUrban]

Oliver,

If that were true, then that would be a perfect player. Heck, you'd have to get one for each room!

 

[El Guapo]

Jon,

If that were true, then that would be a perfect player. Heck, you'd have to get one for each room!

I sure hope that it is true!

Of course, to fully take advantage of the new sound formats we need the matching processors/pre-amps/power-amps...

How about the new MC pre-amp/power-amp combo by Denon? And this one is not a rumour (in case this is new for some here...)
On the "High End" fair in Munich Denon presented their new units, the THX Ultra 2 certified audio/video-processor/pre-amp AVP-A1HD with Dolby True HD and dts HD Master Audio decoders built-in (and loads of other features like 6 HDMI inputs and 2 concurrent HDMI outputs) and the POA-A1HD, a THX Ultra 2 certified 10 channel power amp with 150 watts/channel/8 Ohm. Each channel is built as an independent mono block. The channels can be bridged to form a 5 channel power amp with 500 watt per channel at 4 Ohm.

The price tag for each of these babies is at a steep 7000 Euros - at least in Europe, they will probably be cheaper in the states...

They also showed the new integrated processor/multichannel amp AVR-4308, which will - for a measly 2500 Euros - also have an impressive feature list (of course also decoders for the new formats).

Unfortunately, I was not at the "High End" myself, but you can find pictures of these new units at the AreaDVD High End Report Part 1, just scroll down to Denon and start drooling

Unfortunately, that report is only in German, but I guess information about these new babies are also available elswhere in English.

Best regards,
Oliver

 

[ssully]

I agree with Neil.

SACD should have stayed a STEREO product, if it existed at all. It could have replaced the "Gold" disc market and the stereo audiophiles could bask in their delight. All labels, Sony, WB, anyone who wanted to release these discs, could have done so, creating a stereo ultimate disc.

(And don't start with the "There are 4500 SACDs listed on sa-cd.net". How many versions of Vivaldi's Four Seasons do YOU need?)

I don't think either format was necessary, actually. DTS 96/24 would be an adequate surround format for 99.9% of all listeners, including most 'audiophiles'. CD's already sufficient for two-channel, though of course 'higher-rez' uncompressed PCM is also an option for those who imagine they hear the difference.

But in SACD's defense, it allowed back-compatibility with CD as hybrid discs, and thus in theory could be played in a car, where much CD play took place (at least until the ipod/DAP revolution of the last year or two). Not so DVD-A, except for the one or two automobile models that had DVD-A players.

Sony of course didn't take advantage of that, inexplicably releasing its first wave of DSD remasters as SACD-only discs.

 

[Manmc]

" CD's already sufficient for two-channel, though of course 'higher-rez' uncompressed PCM is also an option for those who imagine they hear the difference "

That's a bit of a generalisation isnt it ? CD is rapidly only becoming 'sufficient' if you like over - compressed mulch that might sound okay on an okay sound system . I dont think I 'imagine' hearing the difference ( and by the way , why did you join a forum such as this if you really believe hi-rez to be a smoke-and -mirrors trick for those with vivid imaginations ? )

Lately , Ive been listening a lot to Porcupine Tree's ' Fear of a Blank Planet ' CD/Dvd set and also No Man's 'Together we're stranger set. The difference between the 2 formats , to my ears , on my system , is day and night .

None of which makes me too proud to compress the hell out of them to listen to via my wireless headphones on my Nokia phone on the train to work each morning but I know which method of listening brings me the most pleasure

I wonder if iPods will ever do 24/96 ? dts may be adequate , but it also guarantees 'the industry' an upgrade path (eg. dts-Hd) and while higher fidelity is possible is it unreasonable for people to aspire to it ?.

Look at the number of different format threads on offer here . If you asked the members to put them in order 1-10 they would obviously place them in order of their own personal preference but I dont believe they would disapprove of other members' differing listening preferences ( publicly anyway )

~M~

 

[JonUrban]

One thing that still bothers me about SACD. If the real problems with the format were the licensing issue, in that US labels would have to pay royalties for the stereo, HiRez stereo, and 5.1 versions (x3), and the high cost of creating the 5.1 mix, then..........................

WHY DID SONY STOP MAKING STEREO ONLY SACDs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ANSWER THAT ONE!

 

[soundboy]

WHY DID SONY STOP MAKING STEREO ONLY SACDs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ANSWER THAT ONE!

Maybe they have to pay 2X the royalties....stereo CD layer and DSD stereo layer. Of course, Sony can go back to single-layer SACD.

Or perhaps the US market just doesn't accept SACD for pop/rock releases. SonyBMG obviously continues to release SACDs in the classical genre.

 

[bmoura]

One thing that still bothers me about SACD. If the real problems with the format were the licensing issue, in that US labels would have to pay royalties for the stereo, HiRez stereo, and 5.1 versions (x3), and the high cost of creating the 5.1 mix, then..........................

WHY DID SONY STOP MAKING STEREO ONLY SACDs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ANSWER THAT ONE!

Probably the same reasons that led Universal to stop making DVD-As.....

 

[JonUrban]

............yeah. And WB too!

Sucks, really. Both formats had much to offer, and were handled pretty poorly, IMHO. (Both formats)

 

[ssully]

" CD's already sufficient for two-channel, though of course 'higher-rez' uncompressed PCM is also an option for those who imagine they hear the difference "

That's a bit of a generalisation isnt it ? CD is rapidly only becoming 'sufficient' if you like over - compressed mulch that might sound okay on an okay sound system .

"Hi rez" releases can be and have been 'overcompressed' too. It's no guarantee of good mastering. "Hi rez' releases can be and have been sourced from 16/44 masters too. So "hi rez' isn't even a guarantee of 'hi rez'.

I dont think I 'imagine' hearing the difference ( and by the way , why did you join a forum such as this if you really believe hi-rez to be a smoke-and -mirrors trick for those with vivid imaginations ? )

I joined Quad quad because it's a forum about surround sound, not hi-rez.

I buy SACDs and DVD-A mainly for the surround remizes, and for the *chance* that the mastering might be better than the current issue. (THe latter being the same reason for buying ANY remaster).

Lately , Ive been listening a lot to Porcupine Tree's ' Fear of a Blank Planet ' CD/Dvd set and also No Man's 'Together we're stranger set. The difference between the 2 formats , to my ears , on my system , is day and night .

Comparing two different releases is not really a way to compare formats.

 

[Dob]

CD is rapidly only becoming 'sufficient' if you like over - compressed mulch that might sound okay on an okay sound system .
~M~

That's a bit of a generalisation isnt it ?
~M~

 

[Dob]

I buy SACDs and DVD-A mainly for the surround remizes, and for the *chance* that the mastering might be better than the current issue. (THe latter being the same reason for buying ANY remaster).

For me, the mastering (specifically, the tonality) is of paramount importance. I originally started buying (stereo) SACDs because the tonality was better, not because of rez...but some stereo SACDs actually sound worse than the best CD version, in spite of rez.

And I'm not tearing my hair out over new releases that are DD only, such as Bill Withers Just As I Am, because IMO it sounds good!. Yeah, I would have preferred DVD-A or SACD, but I try to evaluate things based on what they are, not on what they could have been.

 

[Coren]

This kind of thing is immensely frustrating. There's great new technology out there that just isn't given a chance.

I recall my very first SACD. It was Era's "The Mass". I didn't know what SACD was at the time, I didn't have an SACD player or even a surround speaker set, so I only ever listened to the stereo track, and even then only a few times because the music wasn't all that good.

IMO, the "effort" to promote SACD came too early. That Era SACD was four years ago, back then very few people had a home theater (even nowadays they're pretty rare). And even though the SACDs included these nice little flyers proclaiming them to be the future in audio, nobody was seriously going to consider buy AND a new player AND a surround system to listen to a few extra discs.
DVD-A, IME, wasn't marketed at all. Until a year ago I just thought they were music DVD-V.

It's only now I feel the whole new HD-wave is starting to hit consumers. If SACD or DVD-A were promoted correctly now, I think they would probably stand a chance. But apparently the big companies have already given up on the formats. That's lame.

So I hate to say it, but I think SACD/DVD-A don't have much of a future, as they're relatively unknown, as they require specific players and as no one is willing to promote them. BluRay and HD-DVD seem like a safer bet (if, of course, the formats manage to catch on for video first).

 

[winopener]

Coren,
don't tell me how BAD both were marketed here in Italy... got my first Sony SACD player in 2002 on the only very short campaign Sony ever did on SACD here, an 1 year and half later my first DVD-A player with a BIG (and i mean BIG) discount because it was "flawed" for the seller, since it couldn't read CDR/CDRW media (just a matter of firmware, nothing serious) but it can read DVD +-R without problem. I'm not a hardware buff anymore but the one i got is one of the three mch DVD-A player i've ever seen in Italy - when Samsung and Panasonic stereo-only dvd-a player were nearly everywhere.
I don't ever remember a single promotion for DVD-A here; SACD almost had one.