5.2.2 vs. 5.2.4?

[HomerJAU]

If @albertop had no ceilings the 4 tops would be mixed to FR/FL and BL/BR and would then hear the top quad in those speakers, although blended with normal front and backs so not as effective.

 

[riskylogic]

That’s correct. But if the movement is in quad ceilings how can that be heard in stereo ceilings? It can’t. Just like listening to quad downmixed on a stereo system. You hear everything but the back to rear imaging is 2D. thing to

So my 5.2.2 system has ceilings that are bit in front of the listener and side surrounds that are a bit behind the listener. So the nearest thing to a front ceiling speaker are my ceiling speakers. The nearest thing to a rear speaker are the side surrounds. It works, but only sort of.

 

[AYanguas]

Thats why I figure I'm going to start my 7.1 system upgrade with 5.1.4 vs 7.1.2; I'll try hooking up the rear speakers both ways. Since the rear speakers are pretty far behind the listening area I don't think it will make much difference whether they are identified as ceiling or not.

How high are you rear 7.1 located?

If they are at the floor (listening head) level, the Height Atmos horizontal plane of the Quad Tops would be inclined and moved to the rear, if you locate the Top Middle x.x.2 speakers at above you at 0º inclination. Thus missing the height effect in the rear location.

Try then to move the rears to height as much as possible. The recommended Atmos positions of quad Tops at 45º (in-ceiling) are sometimes implemented as Front Heights and Rear Heights at the front and rear wall by room building constraints. The result could be 45º or not, but at least, it would be in a Height Horizontal sound plane.

 

[AYanguas]

That’s correct. But if the movement is in quad ceilings how can that be heard in stereo ceilings? It can’t. Just like listening to quad downmixed on a stereo system. You hear everything but the back to rear imaging is 2D.

So my 5.2.2 system has ceilings that are bit in front of the listener and side surrounds that are a bit behind the listener. So the nearest thing to a front ceiling speaker are my ceiling speakers. The nearest thing to a rear speaker are the side surrounds. It works, but only sort of.

No sound is lost, but as fewer speakers are or in the wrong positions (acc. to the Atmos standards or recommendations) the intended effects (as listened in the proper Atmos mixing studio) will be worst, or at least, different.

On the oposite side, with more speakers the rendering effects should be best and smooth pannings, but there could be problems with x.x.6 top speakers when Top Middles are not used, or even they are "the only used" as single stereo height effects, when the mixes are fixed to speakers like the printed 7.1.4 of some Disney films. (But this is off-topic as we are comparing x.x.2 to x.x.4)

 

[riskylogic]

How high are you rear 7.1 located?

If they are at the floor (listening head) level, the Height Atmos horizontal plane of the Quad Tops would be inclined and moved to the rear, if you locate the Top Middle x.x.2 speakers at above you at 0º inclination. Thus missing the height effect in the rear location.

Try then to move the rears to height as much as possible. The recommended Atmos positions of quad Tops at 45º (in-ceiling) are sometimes implemented as Front Heights and Rear Heights at the front and rear wall by room building constraints. The result could be 45º or not, but at least, it would be in a Height Horizontal sound plane.

My rears in my 7.1 system are just below the ceiling and about nine feet behind the listener while the side surrounds are at ear level and five feet away. I figure on using the present rears as the heights; whether I really need new rears at ear level is the question. It would be a pain to wire and there isn't really a good place to put them.

 

[AYanguas]

My rears in my 7.1 system are just below the ceiling and about nine feet behind the listener while the side surrounds are at ear level and five feet away. I figure on using the present rears as the heights; whether I really need new rears at ear level is the question. It would be a pain to wire and there isn't really a good place to put them.

Then it's OK. You have already Rear Heights.

As I did with my addition of Wides (9.1.4), if you are able to just test with some 'old' speakers with a temporary setup, you could evaluate how much improvement you get listening to different mixes, before taken a decision.

 

[riskylogic]

Then it's OK. You have already Rear Heights.

As I did with my addition of Wides (9.1.4), if you are able to just test with some 'old' speakers with a temporary setup, you could evaluate how much improvement you get listening to different mixes, before taken a decision.

Right. The first thing I'm going to do, because it's the easiest, is to try hook up the rears both as heights vs surrounds to see how much difference it makes. If the receiver "knows" where the speakers are after calibration then perhaps it will make no difference to the Armos renderer.

 

[AYanguas]

Right. The first thing I'm going to do, because it's the easiest, is to try hook up the rears both as heights vs surrounds to see how much difference it makes. If the receiver "knows" where the speakers are after calibration then perhaps it will make no difference to the Armos renderer.

Don't understand what you mean.

The Atmos renderer will send different information to the speakers if they are configured as Rears (Surround Back) or Heights (either Top Rear, or Rear Height).

 

[riskylogic]

Don't understand what you mean.

The Atmos renderer will send different information to the speakers if they are configured as Rears (Surround Back) or Heights (either Top Rear, or Rear Height).

But what if I only have one or the other located in the same place?

 

[AYanguas]

But what if I only have one or the other located in the same place?

The AVR calibration will measure the distance (to adjust the channel delay to arrive all sounds at the same time to all speakers) and also will do an EQ for room compensation (Audyssey or whatever you have). But the AVR will not know where actually the speaker is located (floor level, height level and azimuth angle). I think only very sophisticated measure calibration systems would be able to calculate the speaker location.

Then, the Atmos renderer will decode and sent different content to the speaker when it is configured as (Top Rear / Rear Height) ceiling location x.x.4 or Surround Back (Floor location) x.7

The Atmos renderer have to assume you have located the speakers as per recommendations to image sounds the same as in the certificated mixing studio.

Edited: But anyway, as you will test it you will see if the differences are noticeable for you, or you hear the alternatives almost the same.

 

[fredblue]

i guess this maybe merits a separate discussion but while i'd absolutely love it, i kinda feel Lossless Atmos streaming right now is unrealistic.

its a lovely idea but as is often the case Apple have possibly figured they have to go with the 'lowest common denominator' (i say that in terms of Spatial Audio, which in relative terms is already a kinda step-up or at least a sideways step away from basic listening but it is still not the Lossless Atmos you get on a Blu-ray Disc).

i've just recently "gone 7.1.4" (thanks to the help and encouragement of sjcorne ) and when i look at a number of Atmos Music mixes i'd "only" been listening to in 5.1.2, it turns out that they have been mixed in a 7.1.4 config with stuff going on in all channels at once, including both Surrounds and Surround Backs. some mixes use all 4 Heights more than others but either way you look at it that's 12 channels in total.

ok, 5 of them (the Heights and the LFE) maybe somewhat content/bandwidth limited but that's still 7 Main channels (sometimes with Full-Range content if there's no LFE) that a stream has to accommodate at a palatable bitrate.

no matter how many speakers or earbuds, or whatever, you're using to listen to 7.1.4 Atmos Music at the end of it, i suspect you're talking a not inconsiderable amount more data if you're to do it all Losslessly rather than the form Apple are delivering it in right now and i just don't feel its even on the cards at the moment somehow?

 

[Ephi82]

i guess this maybe merits a separate discussion but while i'd absolutely love it, i kinda feel Lossless Atmos streaming right now is unrealistic.

its a lovely idea but as is often the case Apple have possibly figured they have to go with the 'lowest common denominator' (i say that in terms of Spatial Audio, which in relative terms is already a kinda step-up or at least a sideways step away from basic listening but it is still not the Lossless Atmos you get on a Blu-ray Disc).

i've just recently "gone 7.1.4" (thanks to the help and encouragement of sjcorne ) and when i look at a number of Atmos Music mixes i'd "only" been listening to in 5.1.2, it turns out that they have been mixed in a 7.1.4 config with stuff going on in all channels at once, including both Surrounds and Surround Backs. some mixes use all 4 Heights more than others but either way you look at it that's 12 channels in total.

ok, 5 of them (the Heights and the LFE) maybe somewhat content/bandwidth limited but that's still 7 Main channels (sometimes with Full-Range content if there's no LFE) that a stream has to accommodate at a palatable bitrate.

no matter how many speakers or earbuds, or whatever, you're using to listen to 7.1.4 Atmos Music at the end of it, i suspect you're talking a not inconsiderable amount more data if you're to do it all Losslessly rather than the form Apple are delivering it in right now and i just don't feel its even on the cards at the moment somehow?

Fred, so you are saying that a 7.1.4 is significantly more immersive than 5.1.4? Where are your ATMOS speakers mounted? Ceiling? Wall? Brands/model?

 

[fredblue]

Fred, so you are saying that a 7.1.4 is significantly more immersive than 5.1.4? Where are your ATMOS speakers mounted? Ceiling? Wall? Brands/model?

yes! i found 5.1.4 more immersive than 5.1.2 and 7.1.4 most immersive of all. for me its the only way to properly hear these Atmos mixes

edit: oops, forgot to mention setup etc! the speakers are arranged as 2 x Front Heights and 2 x Rear Heights, up on shelving as i can't penetrate any walls (i'm in a tanked-out basement) as high as i can get them without them being right up to the ceiling since the room height is only 2.3 metres. as i have said on here a number of times over the years i reside in a London shoebox! everything's shoehorned in, including me!

as for speakers, in order to try and keep some semblance of timbre-matching, at least in that the Mains are one brand and the Heights are all another manufacturer, i'm using two sets of 5.1's (i used to have 2 x Surround setups in the old flat; 1 x 5.1 in the Bedroom and 1 x 7.1 in the Living Area).

Front LCR and Surrounds are Monitor Audio Bronze BX. Surround Backs and the 4 x Heights are KEF Q Series.

there's a surprising number of mixes with cool stuff happening up in the Heights in 7.1.4 that just doesn't come across in the same way on my setup in 5.1.2;
just on Elton's "Diamonds" you've got extra horns in "Honky Cat", "Step Into Christmas" has bursts of keyboard and big ol' bells bonging away! its hilarious!, "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds" has nifty backing vocal bits (sounds like Nigel?) that pop up in the Heights ("Lucy Lucy Lucy Lucy Lucy Lucy Lucy Lucyyy!" from 4:20 onwards to the end of the track), there's extra isolated drum and vocal parts in "Someone Saved My Life Tonight" and "Island Girl" starts out simple with a guitar twang but is a Height channel minor revelation as the song builds with fun backing vocals in the chorus with various harmonies isolated its great, "Are You Ready For Love?" has all sorts of wonders peppered up there throughout, harp, strings, horns but i think my favourite use of the Heights in the Elton Atmos tracks so far is in "Part Time Love" where there's beautiful horn, string, woodwind and vocal parts going on up there, to me its absolutely stunning! shout out to Greg Penny who truly gets Surround for Music, 5.1 and Atmos

 

[Ephi82]

yes! i found 5.1.4 more immersive than 5.1.2 and 7.1.4 most immersive of all. for me its the only way to properly hear these Atmos mixes

edit: oops, forgot to mention setup etc! the speakers are arranged as 2 x Front Heights and 2 x Rear Heights, up on shelving as i can't penetrate any walls (i'm in a tanked-out basement) as high as i can get them without them being right up to the ceiling since the room height is only 2.3 metres. as i have said on here a number of times over the years i reside in a London shoebox! everything's shoehorned in, including me!

as for speakers, in order to try and keep some semblance of timbre-matching, at least in that the Mains are one brand and the Heights are all another manufacturer, i'm using two sets of 5.1's (i used to have 2 x Surround setups in the old flat; 1 x 5.1 in the Bedroom and 1 x 7.1 in the Living Area).

Front LCR and Surrounds are Monitor Audio Bronze BX. Surround Backs and the 4 x Heights are KEF Q Series.

there's a surprising number of mixes with cool stuff happening up in the Heights in 7.1.4 that just doesn't come across in the same way on my setup in 5.1.2;
just on Elton's "Diamonds" you've got extra horns in "Honky Cat", "Step Into Christmas" has bursts of keyboard and big ol' bells bonging away! its hilarious!, "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds" has nifty backing vocal bits (sounds like Nigel?) that pop up in the Heights ("Lucy Lucy Lucy Lucy Lucy Lucy Lucy Lucyyy!" from 4:20 onwards to the end of the track), there's extra isolated drum and vocal parts in "Someone Saved My Life Tonight" and "Island Girl" starts out simple with a guitar twang but is a Height channel minor revelation as the song builds with fun backing vocals in the chorus with various harmonies isolated its great, "Are You Ready For Love?" has all sorts of wonders peppered up there throughout, harp, strings, horns but i think my favourite use of the Heights in the Elton Atmos tracks so far is in "Part Time Love" where there's beautiful horn, string, woodwind and vocal parts going on up there, to me its absolutely stunning! shout out to Greg Penny who truly gets Surround for Music, 5.1 and Atmos

Thanks for the detailed response! Yes, i love Pennys work. Helped immensely by the sound quality of the original multi tracks.

 

[sjcorne]

shout out to Greg Penny who truly gets Surround for Music, 5.1 and Atmos

I particularly love what he did "Sorry Seems To Be The Hardest Word" - the 'so sad' vocals appear somewhere between the rear surrounds and rear heights

 

[fredblue]

I particularly love what he did "Sorry Seems To Be The Hardest Word" - the 'so sad' vocals appear somewhere between the rear surrounds and rear heights

d'oh!
i forgot to try that one in 7.1.4!

that does sound like a lovely effect and its a beautiful track but tbh i'm desperate to hear everything else from Blue Moves in MultiCh!

there's so much Surround potential on that album its ridiculous and for me its his unheralded misunderstood meltdown masterpiece!

"Tinderbox! Two sparks can set the whole thing off!"

 

[fredblue]

"Believe" is quite an interesting mix as well. not Cher's song, the Atmos of that is unfortunately fake rubbish! Elton's different song entirely also called "Believe"! the Atmos has some new (to me) bits going on in the various channels including the Heights

 

[key_wiz]

Inquriing about recommendations/suggestions for moving up to Atmos:

My room is 14' x 16' I currently have 4 floor speakers in each of the corners. I don't really have the option of putting any speakers on the side walls or in the ceiling.

I'm thinking of adding satellites above the floor speakers on the front and rear walls.

What would be best? One each above the speakers? Move them more to the center? Only one on each wall directly in the center?

Or will not having any on the sides or center-of-ceiling be so ineffective that I'm better off just staying with 5.1?

 

[fredblue]

Inquriing about recommendations/suggestions for moving up to Atmos:

My room is 14' x 16' I currently have 4 floor speakers in each of the corners. I don't really have the option of putting any speakers on the side walls or in the ceiling.

I'm thinking of adding satellites above the floor speakers on the front and rear walls.

What would be best? One each above the speakers? Move them more to the center? Only one on each wall directly in the center?

Or will not having any on the sides or center-of-ceiling be so ineffective that I'm better off just staying with 5.1?

one way to start going about upgrading to Atmos without Sides or in-ceiling speakers might be by placing 4 x upward firing Dolby Atmos enabled speakers on top of your 4 x Floorstanders?

 

[HomerJAU]

there's a surprising number of mixes with cool stuff happening up in the Heights in 7.1.4 that just doesn't come across in the same way on my setup in 5.1.2;

Absolutely! Worthy of a quote

4 ceilings is a ‘requirement’ IMO.