Van Der Graaf Generator - 5.1 mixes coming in 2021. It's happening!!

[fredblue]

Does LPCM sometimes appear on DVD-As? I seem to recall ripping the LPCM layer from something. Maybe they were Blu-rays?

the 5.1 on the DVD-Audio of Al Green's Greatest Hits was in LPCM rather than PPCM/MLP iirc.

 

[davidjpoole]

I'm debating either picking up the Blu-Ray set for uncompressed 5.1, or starting with one DVD-V title.
Which of the four albums is most interesting from a surround perspective?
The notes so far suggest a subtle, not discrete surround mix.

 

[R E Faust]

You'll also need a compatible BD-ROM drive for your computer, of course.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look into it

R E

 

[R E Faust]

An update....

I had a play with the Bluray discs in an attempt to see if I could get anything to play on my Oppo.

Weirdly the video collection disc is also a Bluray Audio disc (BDMV) rather than a BDV. Using the goto function I was able to get that disc to output some audio but without pictures. So I cannot even play the videos. Why it isn't a normal Bluray disc simply doesn't make sense.

This method of using goto etc didn't work with the two 5.1 discs, the player simply can't see the menus.

R E

 

[vdgg]

The notes so far suggest a subtle, not discrete surround mix.

In my opinion, this statement is incorrect. I wouldn't say it isn't discrete. It's not a Wilson-style mix, but it's good in its own style. I'd argue the mixes are discrete, but also include reverbs, projecting sounds back and forth.

Let me try to describe it, as I've just started Pawn Hearts for a first spin. So, Lemmings:
Vocals are clean in the center, bleeding to the other two fronts with some reverb to the rears.
Drums are clean in the fronts (all three, including center), reverb to the rears.
Keyboards in the rears (which is just how I like them ).
Acoustic guitar clean in the rears.
Effects are all over, discretely (if I spot them correctly).
Not sure where Jackson's saxes are coming from. I think fronts, reverb to the rear.

When I write 'clean' - this is my definition of a discrete mix.
Of course, the mix isn't static, so this is just my real-time description of what was going on.

In conclusion - I like discrete mixes as well, and though I love VDGG and would've bought the box regardless, I am very pleased with the mixes.
If you refrain from getting this because you think the mix has ambient sounds in the rears, then this isn't correct. Go ahead and buy it with confidence.

 

[martin russell]

A warning to anyone thinking of getting this who may have previously had problems with Gentle Giant 'Freehand' Bluray.

Once again the discs are authored (by Ray Shulman) with a JavaScript that means they will not play in many older machines, including some Oppo and Sony players. This is the 3rd time now this had happened (the 1st was Chris Squires 'Fish Out Of Water' also authored by Ray Shulman).

I have a very large collection and only these 3 refuse to play. No problem with the Alan Parsons Project, Tears For Fears etc.

For myself I'm simply not in a position to afford to buy a new universal player to replace my Oppo so I won't be able to buy any Ray Shulman authored discs in future. I've contacted Esoteric and Alucard before about this but obviously either Ray isn't sufficiently aware or isn't prepared to solve this issue going forward.

I've been looking forward to this box a great deal and am totally disheartened that this issue isn't getting resolved.

R E

Glad to see someone else articulating this viewpoint. As well as the Chris Squire album I encountered problems with the recent Transatlantic. I too contacted Esoteric by phone and email and haven't had any response....sad to be in the position where if it's a Ray Shulman blu-ray I'm out.

 

[davidjpoole]

In my opinion, this statement is incorrect. I wouldn't say it isn't discrete. It's not a Wilson-style mix, but it's good in its own style. I'd argue the mixes are discrete, but also include reverbs, projecting sounds back and forth.

Let me try to describe it, as I've just started Pawn Hearts for a first spin. So, Lemmings:
Vocals are clean in the center, bleeding to the other two fronts with some reverb to the rears.
Drums are clean in the fronts (all three, including center), reverb to the rears.
Keyboards in the rears (which is just how I like them ).
Acoustic guitar clean in the rears.
Effects are all over, discretely (if I spot them correctly).
Not sure where Jackson's saxes are coming from. I think fronts, reverb to the rear.

When I write 'clean' - this is my definition of a discrete mix.
Of course, the mix isn't static, so this is just my real-time description of what was going on.

In conclusion - I like discrete mixes as well, and though I love VDGG and would've bought the box regardless, I am very pleased with the mixes.
If you refrain from getting this because you think the mix has ambient sounds in the rears, then this isn't correct. Go ahead and buy it with confidence.

Thanks for the detailed response. Any suggestions (perhaps after further listening) which of four albums does best in surround?

 

[JediJoker]

Weirdly the video collection disc is also a Bluray Audio disc (BDMV) rather than a BDV.

"Blu-ray Audio" was a proposed—but never realized—standard. All playable Blu-rays are BD-V, follow the same folder structure, and adhere to the same format standards. They all contain a "BDMV" folder.

 

[dadregga]

I would be really interested to understand the economics of how, in 2021, a DVD-V with DD/DTS 5.1 is cheaper to produce than a BD-V with LPCM 5.1.

My guess is that even though you surely have to pay fees for DVD-based DD/DTS, that's still somehow cheaper than a garden-variety bluray with LPCM and no DTS-HD/DD TrueHD.

 

[4-earredwonder]

I would be really interested to understand the economics of how, in 2021, a DVD-V with DD/DTS 5.1 is cheaper to produce than a BD-V with LPCM 5.1.

My guess is that even though you surely have to pay fees for DVD-based DD/DTS, that's still somehow cheaper than a garden-variety bluray with LPCM and no DTS-HD/DD TrueHD.

Or rather release 1 BD~A which holds the contents of more than 16 44.1/16 bit RBCDs in HI RES on ONE DISC and dispense with all those lower res CDs within a box set.

 

[DuncanS]

I would be really interested to understand the economics of how, in 2021, a DVD-V with DD/DTS 5.1 is cheaper to produce than a BD-V with LPCM 5.1.

My guess is that even though you surely have to pay fees for DVD-based DD/DTS, that's still somehow cheaper than a garden-variety bluray with LPCM and no DTS-HD/DD TrueHD.

From what I was told you have to pay an upfront royalty to manufacture Blu-rays, and it is an awful lot higher than DVD costs, hence why the Record Companies are producing DVD-V. For DVD-A there is no fully supported software anymore as it is regarded as a dead format, which is a shame!

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I would be really interested to understand the economics of how, in 2021, a DVD-V with DD/DTS 5.1 is cheaper to produce than a BD-V with LPCM 5.1.

My guess is that even though you surely have to pay fees for DVD-based DD/DTS, that's still somehow cheaper than a garden-variety bluray with LPCM and no DTS-HD/DD TrueHD.

Possibly because there is an additional royalty for the blueray format itself?

Few labels seem to go the LPCM route. Im not sure why.

 

[vdgg]

Thanks for the detailed response. Any suggestions (perhaps after further listening) which of four albums does best in surround?

If you mean which album has more going on in the rears and not just ambience/reverb - then fear not, this is not the case in any of the albums. There's something (dry) mixed to the rears in addition to ambience from the fronts most of the time (keyboards are in the rear).

Otherwise, and this is very initial as I only started listening yesterday, I would (gladly) say that Pawn Hearts sounds best, mix-wise. I did spot several new things in the mix of A Plague (as you can tell from my nick name, I do know the music by heart so the comparison is instantaneous).
Full disclosure though - I haven't even listened to Godbluff through, only to Undercover Man.

Again, it's not a Wilson-style mix. I think SW tends to keep the reverb of the fronts in the fronts, and rears in the rears. While in this case the projections are all over. But claiming the surround mix is ambience only is grossly misleading.
Having listened to lots of surround albums, I find it hard to refer you to a comparison, though. This is something unique and I'm giving it time to grow on me.

 

[dadregga]

From what I was told you have to pay an upfront royalty to manufacture Blu-rays, and it is an awful lot higher than DVD costs, hence why the Record Companies are producing DVD-V. For DVD-A there is no fully supported software anymore as it is regarded as a dead format, which is a shame!

You would think that whoever is doing this rent-seeking would ease off to encourage more discs being pressed, given that physical media is on a downturn anyway.

But what do I know.

DVD-A doesn't make a whole lot of sense in a world where you can put multiple losslessly-compressed MCH channel streams on a single BD disc very easily which all players can decode, without requiring unusual or boutique decoding hardware that most people don't have - but it seems like BD licensing fees make that transition harder than it should be.

 

[vdgg]

Actually, what I wrote before is not entirely accurate. Of course, it takes time to go over all the albums, and the mixes aren't static.
There are portions with only ambience in the rears. House with No Door is a good example for such a case.
And in parts where there are dry instruments in the rears, they partially exist in the fronts as well. I'm not sure if they're panned backwards or just mixed equally all around.

 

[jefe1]

As Gollum in Lord of the Rings would ask Is it juicy? Is it tasty?

 

[SHB]

My VDGG bundle arrived today from Burning shed. Can't wait to listen to them

 

[mixfo]

I received shipping notification for the box from ImportCDs today.

 

[Mistee]

The 5.1 mixes are wonderful. So many highlights.

And Pilgrims, a song I've always loved (and believe is one of Hammill's greatest compositions), is mixed exactly the way I feel it should be.

Thank you Mr SWT.

 

[jefe1]

Good to hear my box has shipped out from AmazonUk
A big purchase but a lot of content.